I can’t believe it’s not a Chasm nerf thread

Pantera236

@GrimSkald said:

@Pantera236 said:

@GrimSkald said:

@Pantera236 said:

@GrimSkald said:

@HoundofShadow said:
You tone down all that and he's useless.

1) No team stun = useless against start of game special tile characters. That's one of his key draws.
2) Ap drain reduced to 1 = insignificant. Gargantos' 1 ap drain is living proof. Do you feel any pinch when he drains only one ap? If players felt anything about 1 ap drain per turn, his ap drain mechanic would be nerfed.
3) Toned down revival/heal = a better OML true heal

Because he's so slow at draining ap, and players are brushing off his ap drain, his passive damage and match damage boost will be weaken due to high average ap.

With the above changes, he's not meta and will be reduced to (higher) bottom tier.

You don't need to jump through a lot of hoops, you just need to understand how his draining works step by step.

You keep saying that, and yet I've played any number of games against him where I literally have never been able to fire a single power. Tell us your magical way of gaining AP against Chasm so you can fire powers, I want to hear it.

Wanda is good at getting more AP you want with her purple. Brb, especially once you get his blue out, passively gets you AP. If you don't have those characters at a high enough level Jane and Riri work great, albeit not so great on defense.

Wanda's purple is her strongest color, so any time you have Wanda in front, you lose 3 purple. This makes it much more difficult to get out, basically you need to get a bunch in a single turn. Boosting doesn't help much - those 2 AP go away the first time she matches something other than purple.

BRB is a little better, but you still need some kind of AP gain to get it out, and you'd better pray you do so before Chasm covers all the blue tiles with void or web tiles. You've also lost his first turn protects. He's still not a great choice.

Basically your only reliable choices are characters who do board shake every turn, and even they still have their own problems - Jane looses her first turn charged tiles so her speed is cut by a lot, Half-Thor exists, I guess, but only a mad person leaves them out in PVP. You can bring Chasm/iHulk yourself, but once the board fills up with web tiles you will long for death by the time the fight ends.

Or, I guess, you can bring a good TU. A poor solution.

If you take +2 all +2 r/y and +2 p/blue and put Wanda on the right apoc on the left and take loaner required (if their top color is red yellow or purple, otherwise you can take full strength) so they die on your 1st stunned turn apoc will jump up front and chasm will take black. Turn 2 (your 1st turn after being stunned) you put Wanda's purple on red, then match yellow asap. Doesn't take long before the required character is down, chasm and ihulk are low enough in health and you've got apocs repeaters out and 7 red.

For brb it's the exact same basically you are just going for that initial blue match to get his blue going and yellow to get apocs going.

These aren't theory crafting either. I've won hundreds of matches with them.

Here's the thing, though - the + 2 to all AP costs, what, 250 hero points to replenish when you're run out? I haven't let mine run out in years, I just use it on hops, so that may have changed, but that's what I recall. As solutions go, I find that to be somewhat exceptional, and not really any better than saying "use whales," though it is faster than whales I'm sure.

It cost 100 HP for 10, or 5 +2 uses. You can't really compare that to DP points as one is a finite resource that there is only one way to get and the other there are numerous ways to get. It's a solution that works, not anyone's fault if you are unwilling to use it.

Bad

Yeah like I said before, 2 +2 AP and +2All, and 2 health packs every battle.
That's the expensive tradeoff if choosing not playing the meta.
Those who only play chahulk don't know it.

Sekilicious

I guess we’re lucky there is literally no one who only plays chahulk then.

BriMan2222

@Zalasta said:
I really dislike the idea of nerfing any character that isn't totally broke, like Gambit or Bishop were. Part of the problem is that nerfs usually move a top tier character to the trash tier. There was really no excuse for nerfing Wolverine. Seems like we go through this with any new meta character. How many calls have there been to nerf Okoye, or Kitty, or Wanda/Colossus?

Much like Kitty, if Chasm is alone, he's not really that big of a threat. In a pick 3, you could probably kill him before he had 3 abyss tiles out if he wasn't boosted. It's really having a second resurrection character that makes this difficult, and in particular having iHulk as the second. iHulk is really more of the problem, much like when he's paired with Okoye (though their defense isn't nearly as good, and there is a few hard counters). Give this one time, and I suspect Chasm's day in the sun will come to an end. Maybe a character will come out with a passive power that prevents resurrection. In the meantime, I just pay the skip tax.

I agree that gambit and bishop were broken, but I would take both of them being restored to their original form in exchange for chasms ap drain being toned down.

Gambit wouldn't be a great problem in today's passive meta and bishop was obnoxious but he could be dealt with. Now that we also have buffed silver surfer or apocalypse with a strong mutant like p5 collosus bishop wouldn't be much trouble either.

entrailbucket

@Zalasta said:
I really dislike the idea of nerfing any character that isn't totally broke, like Gambit or Bishop were. Part of the problem is that nerfs usually move a top tier character to the trash tier. There was really no excuse for nerfing Wolverine. Seems like we go through this with any new meta character. How many calls have there been to nerf Okoye, or Kitty, or Wanda/Colossus?

Much like Kitty, if Chasm is alone, he's not really that big of a threat. In a pick 3, you could probably kill him before he had 3 abyss tiles out if he wasn't boosted. It's really having a second resurrection character that makes this difficult, and in particular having iHulk as the second. iHulk is really more of the problem, much like when he's paired with Okoye (though their defense isn't nearly as good, and there is a few hard counters). Give this one time, and I suspect Chasm's day in the sun will come to an end. Maybe a character will come out with a passive power that prevents resurrection. In the meantime, I just pay the skip tax.

I think people here are arguing that he is indeed "totally broken." Go back and read the arguments over Bishop and Gambit -- the defenders of both those characters were saying the same things then that Chasm's defenders are saying now.

IrisRyu

@Sekilicious said:
I guess we’re lucky there is literally no one who only plays chahulk then.

True, but to Bad’s point, it did take me a minute to adjust to the additional HP requirements for the AP boosts after a few months of never touching them w/ Chasm.

I, personally, don’t find any counters to be more of a health pack drain than pre-Chasm days, but the additional AP resources it takes to confidently counter him ain’t cheap. Whatever hard(er) counter they introduce will have to address Chasm’s AP drain as a passive. I would love a 5* PF Magik that sends Chasm’s @!? to Limbo whenever he steals AP.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
With god boost health 5* and stun immune on a few characters even the Gambit black cheaty team wouldn't be impossible to handle these days.

Maybe we need a character who only fires their powers when their AP gets drained! Like they start the battle with 6AP in that power and when it gets to 0AP they fire!

Reminder -- when we talk about Gambit's reign of terror, it wasn't 0/0/5 Gambit. People built 3* Gambit at 0/0/5 and ran him with Gwen. Because of this team, 3* Gambit was nerfed almost immediately.

Absolutely nobody built a 0/0/5 5* Gambit, because 5* covers were way too rare to waste like that, and Gambit's red power was really, really good.

I am aware of this but thanks uncle Entrail! 😂😋😉

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
With god boost health 5* and stun immune on a few characters even the Gambit black cheaty team wouldn't be impossible to handle these days.

Maybe we need a character who only fires their powers when their AP gets drained! Like they start the battle with 6AP in that power and when it gets to 0AP they fire!

Reminder -- when we talk about Gambit's reign of terror, it wasn't 0/0/5 Gambit. People built 3* Gambit at 0/0/5 and ran him with Gwen. Because of this team, 3* Gambit was nerfed almost immediately.

Absolutely nobody built a 0/0/5 5* Gambit, because 5* covers were way too rare to waste like that, and Gambit's red power was really, really good.

I am aware of this but thanks uncle Entrail! 😂😋😉

Hey, I'm never gonna pass up the chance to make some worthless irrelevant point about the way the metagame was a million years ago!

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
With god boost health 5* and stun immune on a few characters even the Gambit black cheaty team wouldn't be impossible to handle these days.

Maybe we need a character who only fires their powers when their AP gets drained! Like they start the battle with 6AP in that power and when it gets to 0AP they fire!

Reminder -- when we talk about Gambit's reign of terror, it wasn't 0/0/5 Gambit. People built 3* Gambit at 0/0/5 and ran him with Gwen. Because of this team, 3* Gambit was nerfed almost immediately.

Absolutely nobody built a 0/0/5 5* Gambit, because 5* covers were way too rare to waste like that, and Gambit's red power was really, really good.

I am aware of this but thanks uncle Entrail! 😂😋😉

Hey, I'm never gonna pass up the chance to make some worthless irrelevant point about the way the metagame was a million years ago!

I would not have it any other way! 🙂

Tony_Foot

@Jimsta_rooney said:
Its a yawnfest
The fact he has to be killed last even when hes not paired with hulk means you have to spend all the match having your ap sucked every turn.
Wheres the fun in that?
Devs never told us about his most potent power either:he sucks away the desire to play at all.
Having to beat boosted champed characters with mostly match dmg isnt fun.
I hate when ppl call for nerfs but if devs dont rectify this i think its honestly gonna be the final nail in the coffin for this game
Im out anyway ill keep a lookout for the next meta,this one just doesnt do anything for me.

I don’t get why you would stop playing. It’s all I see you out with and all you hit me with. So you are part of the problem. I just use it on my last match. You can still have fun and not use them. Sure you won’t get as many points in pvp but it’s more than you will get not playing until the meta shifts.

Jimsta_rooney

@Tony_Foot said:

@Jimsta_rooney said:
Its a yawnfest
The fact he has to be killed last even when hes not paired with hulk means you have to spend all the match having your ap sucked every turn.
Wheres the fun in that?
Devs never told us about his most potent power either:he sucks away the desire to play at all.
Having to beat boosted champed characters with mostly match dmg isnt fun.
I hate when ppl call for nerfs but if devs dont rectify this i think its honestly gonna be the final nail in the coffin for this game
Im out anyway ill keep a lookout for the next meta,this one just doesnt do anything for me.

I don’t get why you would stop playing. It’s all I see you out with and all you hit me with. So you are part of the problem. I just use it on my last match. You can still have fun and not use them. Sure you won’t get as many points in pvp but it’s more than you will get not playing until the meta shifts.

Yup you are right
And if i dont use them i drop points a lot faster than i like.
I actually dont often use hulkasm to fight hulkasm and i hit it quite a lot with a pretty decent success rate.
Still not fun,maybe we have different ideas of what fun is?
Tbh i have decided not to stop playing,last time i did this and returned it was a long way back
Just gonna play as and when and ride this one out.

GrimSkald

@Pantera236 said:

@GrimSkald said:

@Pantera236 said:

@GrimSkald said:

@Pantera236 said:

@GrimSkald said:

@HoundofShadow said:
You tone down all that and he's useless.

1) No team stun = useless against start of game special tile characters. That's one of his key draws.
2) Ap drain reduced to 1 = insignificant. Gargantos' 1 ap drain is living proof. Do you feel any pinch when he drains only one ap? If players felt anything about 1 ap drain per turn, his ap drain mechanic would be nerfed.
3) Toned down revival/heal = a better OML true heal

Because he's so slow at draining ap, and players are brushing off his ap drain, his passive damage and match damage boost will be weaken due to high average ap.

With the above changes, he's not meta and will be reduced to (higher) bottom tier.

You don't need to jump through a lot of hoops, you just need to understand how his draining works step by step.

You keep saying that, and yet I've played any number of games against him where I literally have never been able to fire a single power. Tell us your magical way of gaining AP against Chasm so you can fire powers, I want to hear it.

Wanda is good at getting more AP you want with her purple. Brb, especially once you get his blue out, passively gets you AP. If you don't have those characters at a high enough level Jane and Riri work great, albeit not so great on defense.

Wanda's purple is her strongest color, so any time you have Wanda in front, you lose 3 purple. This makes it much more difficult to get out, basically you need to get a bunch in a single turn. Boosting doesn't help much - those 2 AP go away the first time she matches something other than purple.

BRB is a little better, but you still need some kind of AP gain to get it out, and you'd better pray you do so before Chasm covers all the blue tiles with void or web tiles. You've also lost his first turn protects. He's still not a great choice.

Basically your only reliable choices are characters who do board shake every turn, and even they still have their own problems - Jane looses her first turn charged tiles so her speed is cut by a lot, Half-Thor exists, I guess, but only a mad person leaves them out in PVP. You can bring Chasm/iHulk yourself, but once the board fills up with web tiles you will long for death by the time the fight ends.

Or, I guess, you can bring a good TU. A poor solution.

If you take +2 all +2 r/y and +2 p/blue and put Wanda on the right apoc on the left and take loaner required (if their top color is red yellow or purple, otherwise you can take full strength) so they die on your 1st stunned turn apoc will jump up front and chasm will take black. Turn 2 (your 1st turn after being stunned) you put Wanda's purple on red, then match yellow asap. Doesn't take long before the required character is down, chasm and ihulk are low enough in health and you've got apocs repeaters out and 7 red.

For brb it's the exact same basically you are just going for that initial blue match to get his blue going and yellow to get apocs going.

These aren't theory crafting either. I've won hundreds of matches with them.

Here's the thing, though - the + 2 to all AP costs, what, 250 hero points to replenish when you're run out? I haven't let mine run out in years, I just use it on hops, so that may have changed, but that's what I recall. As solutions go, I find that to be somewhat exceptional, and not really any better than saying "use whales," though it is faster than whales I'm sure.

It cost 100 HP for 10, or 5 +2 uses. You can't really compare that to DP points as one is a finite resource that there is only one way to get and the other there are numerous ways to get. It's a solution that works, not anyone's fault if you are unwilling to use it.

That's cheaper than I remember it, thanks for that information. My HP income is okay, but I prefer to use it on permanent resources (covers and slots,) rather than expendable ones - but as you say, that's my choice. I'd still argue that it's an "exceptional" sort of solution, but regardless I'll definitely keep that in mind if I decide to go for 2000 points in SIM, particularly if I can line up a non-Chasm team so I can get my ChaHulk team out again.

Sekilicious

You can get to 1800 points in SIM without facing Chasm if you skip. Probably higher later this week. I often use the mirror and a whales TU afterwards if I don’t want to bother with boosts. I haven’t tested how often Riri and mThor get hit after 1800 pts. Yet.

Sekilicious

There is a certain irony to people asking for speed to be de emphasized and the Chasm nerf threads concerned that he needs to be nerfed because they can’t win in three rounds.

GrimSkald

@Sekilicious said:
There is a certain irony to people asking for speed to be de emphasized and the Chasm nerf threads concerned that he needs to be nerfed because they can’t win in three rounds.

I don't think it's ironic at all. Chasm actually makes the speed issue worse - the speed issue is that if a power costs more than 7 or 8 AP, it's not fast enough. In a normal game this is because by the time you can bring that 9-12 AP power to bear, you could have already won with a different team. With Chasm you'll simply never get the AP to use that 9-12 AP power unless you have something feeding it - unless you're profoundly lucky you can't get there through normal play.

So yes, the same people who are disappointed that more expensive powers are less useful under normal circumstances want Chasm nerfed because they're almost completely useless against him.

HoundofShadow

How is speed determined? By the length of time each match takes to finish or by ap cost of powers? Which is the indicator being used?

Bad

When I read the words "we will do the best for the GAME " then sometimes comes to my mind that perhaps my arguments weren't totally wrong and perhaps I guessed totally right inside my MMR limitations.
And that's what this issue is about, not an opinion of mine, or yours or somebody else, but what it's being reflected in the game.
A character who can't be downed, fighting vs 3 he alone, imo is a major issue, and never should be happening on any game.
And chasm can do that without many problems.
For that reason many players don't want to engage pvp, and when this fact happens, we all players have a BIG problem as in a way or in another we will lose.
So devs must do what it must be done, and be careful to create broken characters with synergies made to abuse in the future.

acescracked

@Jimsta_rooney said:

....

I actually dont often use hulkasm to fight hulkasm and i hit it quite a lot with a pretty decent success rate.

...

Shhh!!! Never say this out loud in the forum.

Bad

Yeah but as it's said many times already, a character who is defeated with the same team and character only supports his broken nature.
Or it happens with all the other characters?

Sekilicious

@GrimSkald said:
I don't think it's ironic at all. Chasm actually makes the speed issue worse - the speed issue is that if a power costs more than 7 or 8 AP, it's not fast enough. In a normal game this is because by the time you can bring that 9-12 AP power to bear, you could have already won with a different team. With Chasm you'll simply never get the AP to use that 9-12 AP power unless you have something feeding it - unless you're profoundly lucky you can't get there through normal play.

So yes, the same people who are disappointed that more expensive powers are less useful under normal circumstances want Chasm nerfed because they're almost completely useless against him.

If you say so. We also have threads complaining about puzzle gauntlets so I am skeptical that is the problem here. I would suggest that people started with the conclusion that 'Chasm is awful and can never be defeated', then fit whatever contradictory evidence they can find into that conclusion. I really don't mind as it helps me float with my troll iHulk while I knock off the champed versions on the way up. If he is nerfed to the ground as people request I will say the same in the nerf threads about the new meta teams with mThor at the center.

Never mind. I just saw @SourCream 's video of Jubilee, mThor, Colossus. That team is insane, though match damage boosts are expensive.