Would PvP be better with no meta?

Daredevil217

This isn’t a developer thing, it’s a community norm thing. Which is why I don’t want to be part of that community. I’ve heard it makes life MUCH easier if you play nice and coordinate but 1) I have an awful memory and there’s no way I could remember the names of everyone I’m not supposed to hit (I don’t even know all the names of the people in my alliance family) and 2) I think it’d make the game boring.  I recognize I don’t get the benefits of people having my back (though I like to think every once in awhile someone recognizes me from here and gives me a pass), nor do I deal with the hassle. 

I try to play slice 1 or 4 because I’ve heard those are the easiest to hit progression and that’s all I go for. I never play at a set time other than within 24 hours of the slice ending. So I don’t know the “good climbing times”. Just rolling the dice. I don’t remember to look at names and hit everyone and I mean everyone (half my alliance gets mad and the other half are like “that’s just how he plays, it’s not personal”).

By EBs definition I’m a sniper, but if he or anyone want to assume it’s personal that’s their bias and they’d be wrong. The overwhelmingly large majority of players aren’t on Line (I am) and and an even smaller number are in check room/battle chats (I’m not). So, let’s generously assume 5% of the entire playerbase are in those circles.  That means 95% of the playerbase that choose the highest point queues are doing so because it’s the best return on their time investment (or some other reason other than MPQ politics) as they are not even aware of or subscribe to these group norms. You can call those ignorant players “snipers” but it’d be a gross assumption to presume to know intent.

As an aside, I kind of wish names were hidden in PVP so I didn’t get as many angry PMs (I mean they’re not a ton, but I feel bad every time).  But my understanding is that 1) the shields involved in coordination are a moneymaker and 2) the coordinators actually add a ton of points into the slice making it easier for the rest of us to climb (I think I got that right. I barely understand this stuff, nor do I care to). So it’ll probably never happen. 

Bad

Can you repeat the question?

If I'm climbing I will attack the best match. Dot. I usually target them, win another battle, and then hit them: enough time for them to shield. 
When I finish climbing and I hop I cannot do more than 2 battles before people stealing me points, so I consider my personal rule to be way way generous, a lot more than I usually get.

entrailbucket

This kind of stuff only matters once you get to a certain level anyway.  Players at lower levels get brutalized for 60+ multiple times all day and it just blends together into one big red -500 or whatever, so nobody should feel bad about that.  They won't even notice.

Also...like...I think the friendly players DO make the game boring.  I think you should be a sniper!  I consider the stuff you're doing to be good -- taking points away from other players and dragging them down is what makes the game exciting.  If nobody ever got sniped the game would be horrifically boring.

What you can't do is pretend to be nice and friendly while you're actually dragging other players down for your own benefit.  Embrace being an antisocial jerk!

bbigler

I don’t consider hitting high point targets to be sniper activity. I think it’s just smart play since they would be unwise to retaliate. I commonly see 40 - 50 point match ups and retaliations. 

I think a Sniper is a person that watches the shields of their top 10 bracket. Whenever someone breaks their shield, they immediately search for them and hit. 

I’ve seen this behavior before and it seems like they take turns in their alliance to be the sniper for the event. Thus, benefiting their alliance but not themselves. 

entrailbucket

The definition shifts around.  Sniping was indeed what you described and snipers were people who did that, whether for fun or for revenge or whatever other reason.

At some point (probably during the mass cupcake era?) it became a broader term used to describe all sorts of antisocial players doing all sorts of antisocial things.


The fact is, it's a zero-sum game (over a certain point level...but that's just trivia).  You win 40-50 points, the other player loses 40-50 points.  There is a real human person losing points for every fight you win.  The more points you win, the more they lose.  There is no way to play that doesn't hurt another person.  Embrace it!

HoundofShadow

I think the definition shifts around because it isn't working as well as intended. Assigning adjectives with negative connonations to players cause them to feel bad, and it was hoped that they won't perform such actions again. Even though these players were playing within the rules set by the dev, but they broke the rules set by, I assume, top players or players within Line. It looks like politics to me.

I can't imagine being forbidden to hit (certain) players or having to wait for them to shield before i can hit them. Or worse, getting angry pms about it. Since I'm a blunt person, my replies would probably make them even angrier. 

entrailbucket

See, you're a "sniper" like I am!  Your playstyle is designed to maximally hurt other players, although unlike me you don't care who you hurt.

It's best not to reply to those PMs at all, or to specifically target those players much more after such requests.  Players complaining about being attacked in a PvP game don't have realistic expectations.  I've blocked anyone unknown from contacting me in Line for this reason.

Besides, why would anyone use words when the developers have given us such a fantastic conflict resolution tool?  If someone takes my points away, I extract disproportionate in-game revenge, remember their name, and then target them as much as possible in the future.  I would never contact them to register a formal complaint.

HoundofShadow

Depending on the angle you are looking at, it can be termed as "hurt" or playing according to the rules, or whatever terms given.If we were to step back and look at the rules in pvps,

The rule is to

1. "use this essential character to rise to
the top of the leaderboard."
2. Protect yourself by raising shield.

And add in some flavour texts. Somehow, at some point in time, some group(s) of players decided to add in some emotional and clan rules into pvps.

All I can say is, humans are interesting. 

entrailbucket

Of course it's playing by the rules, but it's also hurting people.  Hurting people IS the rule!  It's a player vs player game!

When you attack someone you're taking away their points, every time.  Every point you earn was taken away from another human player.  It's unavoidable.

HoundofShadow

Since that is the rule, why do some choose to take this personally?  

Technically, every point earned right in the beginning wasn't taken away from players' teams, but from Dev's AI teams. They were the one who gave those early players their first 38 points. 

DAZ0273

entrailbucket said:

HoundofShadow said:

If I'm going for points, I won't touch you with a ten-foot pole. 1200 points within 20 wins is my goal. However, I might do that if I'm visiting slice 2 or 5 and feel like wasting hp.

Forgot to mention: if you exclusively play very high-point matches, that actually makes *you* a sniper. 

Playing a match that takes 60-75 points away from another player is an extremely aggressive act, and generally means that you have a particular animosity toward them.  If you don't, there'd be no need to drag someone else down like that.

PS I wish this thread would just die but I can't stop answering things in it

Is this always true? According to this thread https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/36612/pvp MPQ uses the Elo rating system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system and by that system Hound (or DD or BBigler) is not taking 60-75 points away from the other player if they are below a certain points tally when he hits those high value targets because they do not lose as many points as Hound gains. Here is one of the Devs explaining it

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Q: Can you give us the complete algorithm for figuring out how many points you’ll lose or gain?
A: The scoring system is based on the Elo rating system, but the formula for that is too complex to put here without mathematical notation. Check Wikipedia if you’re interested. But the algorithm goes something like this:
Start with the points change given by the Elo rating system, with a k-value of 75.
If the loser’s score is <=1000, multiply their loss by (their score / 1000).
If the winner was the defender, divide their gain by 3.
Round the result.

Q: Yeah, that’s too much math. How about some more examples?
A: OK! Here you go:

A (500) attacks B (500): If A wins, A gains 38, B loses 19. If A loses, A loses 19, B gains 13.
A (200) attacks B (500): If A wins, A gains 64, B loses 32. If A loses, A loses 2, B gains 4.
A (500) attacks B (200): If A wins, A gains 11, B loses 2. If A loses, A loses 32, B gains 21.

Further more this thread https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/69565/understanding-the-pvp-ecosystem-in-versus-events  even explains what points thresholds are needed to gain certain points - the opening post contains various misinformation about PvP by a player who had only been playing a short time but if you scroll to nearly the bottom there is a chart that details points for offence based wins (but not how much the target loses in this case)

DAZ0273

I should add that also apparently the points threshold was adjusted to 1200 points not 1000 as stated above so it is only ABOVE that amount that the target loses more points. So yes for players putting up very high scores past progression then getting hit can be painful but as Hound has said his goal is to get to 1200 points as quickly as possible then he isn't hitting anybody for as much as he is gaining I doubt. So I don't see how his playstyle can be categorised as being a "sniper" - he is just playing optimally to reach his goal. As he climbs he is going to hit a variety of players on the way, many of whom will also have been trying to climb to 1200.

For those players who are playing with co-ordination, they are going to be shielded more often than not and so Hound won't see them unless he gets lucky - if Hound really was a problem to big Alliances they would have squashed him pretty quick, no?

MegaBee

Good lord. The high level PvP game sounds exhausting as tinykitty.

DAZ0273

MegaBee said:

Good lord. The high level PvP game sounds exhausting as tinykitty.

It really does.

JackDeath666

I see Hound as more of a non-checker than a sniper. But it is all about perspective. They are not really thinking about the consequences of their actions, but those points aren't magically generated. Someone else has worked to get very high and is getting hit. Maybe they front run hitting 5 point matches and see all their efforts destroyed in seconds? Maybe they leeched up themselves just hitting other players' grills? So to that player Hound's actions may seem like a snipe. And if Hound is in the same slice regularly and hitting at the same time then maybe they are repeatedly attacking the same set of players.

But it's just PVP. Nothing to lose sleep over. Just remember that your actions have consequences. If the angst is too much there is always PVE or joining shield checking rooms on Line.

And Daz is generally right about points gained not equalling points lost, BUT that doesn't apply in certain circumstances, notably when a player is high. I can show you many - 75 red screens... So if Hound is only queuing up and eating juicy 75 point matches then I'd imagine it's against players who are very high and will lose an equal number of points. 

Daredevil217

DAZ0273 said:

I should add that also apparently the points threshold was adjusted to 1200 points not 1000 as stated above so it is only ABOVE that amount that the target loses more points. So yes for players putting up very high scores past progression then getting hit can be painful but as Hound has said his goal is to get to 1200 points as quickly as possible then he isn't hitting anybody for as much as he is gaining I doubt. So I don't see how his playstyle can be categorised as being a "sniper" - he is just playing optimally to reach his goal. As he climbs he is going to hit a variety of players on the way, many of whom will also have been trying to climb to 1200.

For those players who are playing with co-ordination, they are going to be shielded more often than not and so Hound won't see them unless he gets lucky - if Hound really was a problem to big Alliances they would have squashed him pretty quick, no?

I appreciate you bringing some facts into this thread. I almost inquired about this myself but again… never remember how this stuff works.

LavaManLee

MegaBee said:

Good lord. The high level PvP game sounds exhausting as tinykitty.

It is.  I left a great alliance because I just didn't want to commit to high PvP scores.  I love PVE and kind of tolerate PvP.  Just way too much work involved.

DAZ0273

On the second link I gave there is a chart - I can only assume it is still accurate but in order for a target to be worth 75 points then that players score must be 870+ points ahead of the attacking player. That is a lot of points! It is why if you start late you might luck into some big numbers but they shrivel up pretty fast as you go - except on SHIELD Sim where there plenty of players who have reached their goals and left their teams out unshielded with progression levels of points. In usual PvP, Hound must be pretty good at finding high level targets with rosters he can beat unless he is co-ordinating!

If Hound is still finding 75 point targets near the end of his climb then he is definitely inflicting some punishment unless he is queing up targets that are now shielded. We are then definitely talking about people who care about placement, so I guess that could get tetchy.

However if he is more within the 50-60 point range then those are still big scores but the difference between the players scores is much smaller 166 - 234 so all well within range of other people climbing.

HoundofShadow

My playstyle is the same as Daredevil217, except that I don't have angry pms being sent to me.    

I skip a lot to find high points. You can find them if you're willing to pay skip tax. So, it has nothing to down with skill.  I don't always get 75 points. 1200 points within 20 wins average out to 60 points. 

entrailbucket

Yeah, the point was that Hound might be called a sniper by certain players, but is doing absolutely nothing wrong.   

When I explained what I like to do in PvP, someone said it was immature/antisocial to enjoy dragging others down.  Maybe it is, but unless you tell them somehow, the other player can't tell what your intentions are.  They only see that you've attacked them.  This is why some people assume Daredevil wants to hurt them.

Some players like to take points away from others.  Some players like to climb quickly and optimally.  They both play the same way and have the same effect on others!