Devs, stop releasing dead-on-arrival 5s !!! What is the point of releasing mediocre chars?!?!?

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  • TheRiddler
    TheRiddler Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
    justsing said:
    Sekilicious said:
    Thanks for clarifying your perspective. Mine is that a single champed Ultron would make PvP significantly more difficult than Polaris and her various counters with a 4* MMR. A single champed Kitty or BRB may make PvP more bearable than Ultron, but a single champed Ultron would make PvE in SCL10 possible beyond spamming endless Winfinites, though maybe not the challenge node. Getting to top-50 to 100 in SCL10 every event is a significant hurdle to champing every 5* as they are released. 
    Not sure why you think a single champed Ultron would be more useful in SCL10 PVE than single champed Kitty or BRB…….. I play SCL10 PVE with a single champed Kitty on my alt account and do fine. Kitty is faster than BRB, especially when you can use R4G as a 3rd. But champed BRB isn’t that slow either since Polaris pairs well with him and fuels his AP gen. 

    I thought the same thing. Kitty is gonna boost those tiles 3x more per turn than Ultron. She is also boosting up to 5 tiles whereas Ultron is just boosting 1 tile. Which means its harder to negate Kitty's boosting by matching or destroying them. Kitty also has a passive that removes special tiles and each turn and that is valuable against those CD tiles.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think odin hasn't had yet his opportunity because people didn't like ronan, and knull was already champed after pulling for SW.
    On defense he is a fortifying spammer.
    I want to champ him. 
    The game model I think it is focused to transitioners or newcomers, as the more you advance, the less you actually need to spend money if you are actively playing.
    I used to buy bundles from time to time, however my 5* champed roster is already crowded and actually I don't need them anymore, possibly even I wouldn't need to buy the vip.
    Except when there are hard pves I could manage to play without vip if I tried.
    However for supporting the game I'm letting things as always.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    A couple of simple tweaks to turn Odin from mediocre to meta is to turn his ability into this:

    (PASSIVE) If an enemy would deal at least X damage, Odin jumps to the front, fortifies 3 random basic or friendly special tile(s), and then reduce that damage by 20% for each color of Fortified tile on the board. If Odin was already in front, fortify 3 random basic or friendly special tiles of each color instead and then reduce that damage by 20% for each color of Fortified tile on the board.

    What this guarantees is a board full of fortified tiles and players dealing 1 damage as the matches go on, unless you deal chip damage, use Wanda to reduce his power level to 1 or you use other character to stun him. However, players who chase meta or play for speed will cry about this and get him nerfed. 

    Anyway, back to reality, here are the 5* meta I remember since late 2017:

    2017
    1. Incredibly Offensive - Gambit 

    2018
    2. Offensive Glass Cannon - Thorkoye
    3. Offensive and Healthpacks Draining - Kitty/R4G

    2019
    4. Offensive Cascade - Prof X
    5. Defensive - Kitty/BRB

    2020
    6. Incredibly Offensive and Healthpack Draining - Hulkoye 
    7. Offensive Glass Cannon - Thor and Apocalypse

    2021
    8. Defensive: Colossus and Wanda 
    9. Offensive and Defensive: Wanda and Apocalypse/Okoye

    Honourable mention: "5*" team who dominated from late 2018 to mid 2019: Bishop and CapWorthy and 5* Hawkeye.

    Out of 9 + 2 metas, only 2 of them seldom get any complains: 4 and 7. This also means that there's a 81.81% probability of players complaining about each meta. This probably means players will complain regardless of what the meta is. Come 2022, we'll probably shift to an all out offensive meta.
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    When I look at a new 5*, the first thing I look at is the mechanics and less the numbers of the ability. If the mechanics are unique, the character turn may shine in the future when another new character is release, which has synergy. 

    When Colossus was released I already know I want to champ him as his mechanics is solid though not spectacular (similar to his comic character, LOL).

    Odin has good jump from behind mechanics. With some setup it is possible for him to take almost zero damage with all abilities. But it’s a lot of loops to jump through, and he is super slow. 
  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    A couple of simple tweaks to turn Odin from mediocre to meta is to turn his ability into this:

    (PASSIVE) If an enemy would deal at least X damage, Odin jumps to the front, fortifies 3 random basic or friendly special tile(s), and then reduce that damage by 20% for each color of Fortified tile on the board. If Odin was already in front, fortify 3 random basic or friendly special tiles of each color instead and then reduce that damage by 20% for each color of Fortified tile on the board.

    This would make him incredibly overpowered. After 2 turns he could conceivably reduce 100% of the damage coming in. He would also start create all those countdown tiles and be a real menace.
    The only option you would have is to stun him in order to do damage.
    If you were to switch jump in front to provide fortified tiles and already in front to reduced damage it might work better.
  • BlackBoltRocks
    BlackBoltRocks Posts: 1,187 Chairperson of the Boards
    dianetics said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    A couple of simple tweaks to turn Odin from mediocre to meta is to turn his ability into this:

    (PASSIVE) If an enemy would deal at least X damage, Odin jumps to the front, fortifies 3 random basic or friendly special tile(s), and then reduce that damage by 20% for each color of Fortified tile on the board. If Odin was already in front, fortify 3 random basic or friendly special tiles of each color instead and then reduce that damage by 20% for each color of Fortified tile on the board.

    This would make him incredibly overpowered. After 2 turns he could conceivably reduce 100% of the damage coming in. He would also start create all those countdown tiles and be a real menace.
    The only option you would have is to stun him in order to do damage.
    If you were to switch jump in front to provide fortified tiles and already in front to reduced damage it might work better.
    Simply make his damage reduction a flat amount or percentage, instead of tying it to the number of Fortified tiles. Or give it a cap, like how Wanda's damage reduction caps at 80%. Change his Red to have conditional effects based on the number of Fortified tile colours, and his Yellow can be used to fuel his Red and Blue.
  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards
    Something along those lines could work as well. Really he would do well to have his red changed to a different color so you could actually pair him with heimdall and make a workable team. Unless another fortified tile producer comes out that isn't color matched his blue going to suffer.
  • Akoni
    Akoni Posts: 790 Critical Contributor
    HoundofShadow said:
    Knull was a "must have" because Cyclops was deemed the worst of 2. You either go Cyclops/Colossus/Wanda or Colossus/Wanda/Knull. If players had a choice, Knull won't even be in the picture.
    I like Knull. He's not at the top of the list among my 5*, but he's been useful for me and I'm glad I pulled for him. Then again, I'm still considered a transitioning player. Since Knull pairs well with some 4* characters better than other 5* characters, I can see why dedicated 5* users may consider Knull worthless.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed said:
    entrailbucket said:

    To suggest that this was by design defies all logic.
    I can’t speak for D3, but I personally think there is business sense to their current model. 

    In mobile games, you can generally earn money through (1) whales and/or (2) masses. Of course, they are not mutually exclusive and all mobile games will earn money through a combination of whales and masses. However, the centre of gravity differs for different mobile games. 
    Those mobile games who focus primarily on the whales will adopt a P2W model. They release the latest and better tools that warp the entire meta around it. If the player don’t have it, they lose. The pro of this business model is that the developer will earn a lot from the whales. The cons is that if it is taken to the extreme, the masses will leave the games, and eventually the whales leave the game because there is no one to fight. Then the game will fold. 
    Those mobile games who focus primarily on the masses will adopt a F2P model. The emphasis is on sustainability and keeping the players engaged. With such a model, variety of the tools is more important than releasing meta tools. The pro is that the masses will stay, and if they spend some amount, it can accumulate to big sums. The cons is that the new tools developed may not be seen as desirable. 
    It’s a continuum and not a binary option. 
    We can debate on which end of the spectrum MPQ should be located at. But it is still our preference and not D3 preference. They must have some business logic to pursue this path. To be able to continue for 8 years is no mean feat. They must be doing something right. 
    Edit: added more clarification why P2W will drive the whales to leave. 
    I'm not talking about "the masses." This game has always been based on generating revenue from the masses, and that's why it's been so successful.

    I'm talking about the top .0001% of players, who dominate the top of the leaderboard in PvP and PvE.  In mobile games it is typically quite expensive to do this. 

    In MPQ it was quite expensive to do this.  Now it's not.  If your argument is that they chose to convert that population of very high-paying players into non-spenders for sustainability reasons, that makes zero sense.
  • Davidk777
    Davidk777 Posts: 76 Match Maker
    I have Odin champ for a while now and I must say he is slow. I mean really slow. I've try all sorts of team from pick 2 to pick 3 (better in pick 3). Even if you get everything going he's going to cost you a health pack. If he had true heal that will be something I guess. 
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm not talking about "the masses." This game has always been based on generating revenue from the masses, and that's why it's been so successful.

    I'm talking about the top .0001% of players, who dominate the top of the leaderboard in PvP and PvE.  In mobile games it is typically quite expensive to do this. 

    In MPQ it was quite expensive to do this.  Now it's not.  If your argument is that they chose to convert that population of very high-paying players into non-spenders for sustainability reasons, that makes zero sense.
    It makes sense if they decide to switch their centre of gravity towards the masses. Put in numbers, they rather earn $1 from one million people rather than eating $1000 from one thousand whales. 

    Maybe they look at their business model and decide that if they keep churning out meta characters like Gambit 1.0, they will burn down the game too fast. And they rather slow burn the game? 
    I think it make sense though whether I agree with it or not, it doesn’t matter. 
  • TheEyeDoctorsWife
    TheEyeDoctorsWife Posts: 829 Critical Contributor
    atomzed said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm not talking about "the masses." This game has always been based on generating revenue from the masses, and that's why it's been so successful.

    I'm talking about the top .0001% of players, who dominate the top of the leaderboard in PvP and PvE.  In mobile games it is typically quite expensive to do this. 

    In MPQ it was quite expensive to do this.  Now it's not.  If your argument is that they chose to convert that population of very high-paying players into non-spenders for sustainability reasons, that makes zero sense.
    It makes sense if they decide to switch their centre of gravity towards the masses. Put in numbers, they rather earn $1 from one million people rather than eating $1000 from one thousand whales. 

    Maybe they look at their business model and decide that if they keep churning out meta characters like Gambit 1.0, they will burn down the game too fast. And they rather slow burn the game? 
    I think it make sense though whether I agree with it or not, it doesn’t matter. 
    No business model I know of caters to 0.001% of it’s customer base and survives. It’s like a shoe store selling shoes at $1 million dollars saying , “All we need is one sale this year to make a profit “. To even think of this as a successful model is ludicrous.
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think the business model is to cater to each of the whales, dolphins, plankton and whatever other sea creature plays this game.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm not talking about "the masses." This game has always been based on generating revenue from the masses, and that's why it's been so successful.

    I'm talking about the top .0001% of players, who dominate the top of the leaderboard in PvP and PvE.  In mobile games it is typically quite expensive to do this. 

    In MPQ it was quite expensive to do this.  Now it's not.  If your argument is that they chose to convert that population of very high-paying players into non-spenders for sustainability reasons, that makes zero sense.
    It makes sense if they decide to switch their centre of gravity towards the masses. Put in numbers, they rather earn $1 from one million people rather than eating $1000 from one thousand whales. 

    Maybe they look at their business model and decide that if they keep churning out meta characters like Gambit 1.0, they will burn down the game too fast. And they rather slow burn the game? 
    I think it make sense though whether I agree with it or not, it doesn’t matter. 
    They have ALWAYS done this.  From the beginning of the game they have become successful and stayed successful by earning "$1 from one million people."

    I think maybe you're confused about who "the masses" are.  The masses are 3* players and 4* players, or brand new folks buying their first pack of roster slots.  The masses are not players with fully maxed-out 550 Okoye, SW, or Beta Ray Bill.  Those are the 1% of the 1%.

    The fact is, again, that when they were releasing characters with gradual power creep, the highest levels of the game were dominated by massive spenders who had to spend to keep up, and they spent massively.

    When they released a few overpowered characters combined with mediocre ones, the top .0001% of the game realized that they could stop spending, because they only needed that one overpowered guy to win everything forever.

    If you think they purposely did this because they're nice and they felt like letting the elite of the elite win everything without spending, that defies logic.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    TheEyeDoctorsWife said:
    atomzed said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm not talking about "the masses." This game has always been based on generating revenue from the masses, and that's why it's been so successful.

    I'm talking about the top .0001% of players, who dominate the top of the leaderboard in PvP and PvE.  In mobile games it is typically quite expensive to do this. 

    In MPQ it was quite expensive to do this.  Now it's not.  If your argument is that they chose to convert that population of very high-paying players into non-spenders for sustainability reasons, that makes zero sense.
    It makes sense if they decide to switch their centre of gravity towards the masses. Put in numbers, they rather earn $1 from one million people rather than eating $1000 from one thousand whales. 

    Maybe they look at their business model and decide that if they keep churning out meta characters like Gambit 1.0, they will burn down the game too fast. And they rather slow burn the game? 
    I think it make sense though whether I agree with it or not, it doesn’t matter. 
    No business model I know of caters to 0.001% of it’s customer base and survives. It’s like a shoe store selling shoes at $1 million dollars saying , “All we need is one sale this year to make a profit “. To even think of this as a successful model is ludicrous.
    Well, you found the first one then. Most Fremium games live from their whales and Krakens. I know it is counterintuitive and it doesnt work in most other types of bussiness but it is how these games work. 

    The big difference here respect other business is that most players dont spend a cent EVER in these Fremium games. In general just 5% or less of players spend money. So doplhins and small spenders contribution is very small, almost all of the money is made by milking whales. 
  • TheEyeDoctorsWife
    TheEyeDoctorsWife Posts: 829 Critical Contributor
    Polares said:
    TheEyeDoctorsWife said:
    atomzed said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm not talking about "the masses." This game has always been based on generating revenue from the masses, and that's why it's been so successful.

    I'm talking about the top .0001% of players, who dominate the top of the leaderboard in PvP and PvE.  In mobile games it is typically quite expensive to do this. 

    In MPQ it was quite expensive to do this.  Now it's not.  If your argument is that they chose to convert that population of very high-paying players into non-spenders for sustainability reasons, that makes zero sense.
    It makes sense if they decide to switch their centre of gravity towards the masses. Put in numbers, they rather earn $1 from one million people rather than eating $1000 from one thousand whales. 

    Maybe they look at their business model and decide that if they keep churning out meta characters like Gambit 1.0, they will burn down the game too fast. And they rather slow burn the game? 
    I think it make sense though whether I agree with it or not, it doesn’t matter. 
    No business model I know of caters to 0.001% of it’s customer base and survives. It’s like a shoe store selling shoes at $1 million dollars saying , “All we need is one sale this year to make a profit “. To even think of this as a successful model is ludicrous.
    Well, you found the first one then. Most Fremium games live from their whales and Krakens. I know it is counterintuitive and it doesnt work in most other types of bussiness but it is how these games work. 

    The big difference here respect other business is that most players dont spend a cent EVER in these Fremium games. In general just 5% or less of players spend money. So doplhins and small spenders contribution is very small, almost all of the money is made by milking whales. 
    I realize my judgment is limited to a small sample size of 20 who may or may not represent the entire demographic of players , but very few of us spend nothing . On average at least half of us spend $20-$50 a month , 2 spend about $500, the rest $10. Possibly new players don’t spend but if you play at least 6 months and plan on staying we all realize the worth of contributing a few dollars a month for the entertainment. The object is to build a game that keeps new players interested long enough to start spending.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,828 Chairperson of the Boards
    MPQ has been around so long because they are incredibly successful at getting huge numbers of non-whales to spend small amounts.  Among the freemium games they're a massive outlier in that way. 

    Most other games like this need whales to make any money at all.  MPQ doesn't -- as long as they keep releasing characters they will keep selling roster slots to the masses.

    This doesn't mean that they intentionally chose to convert the game's elites into non-spenders by intentionally transforming the 5* tier into a "stars and scrubs" model.  There is no way that's a decision that they made.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    I may or may not be an outlier on day 20xx, 43 5* champs, never spent anything ever; I usually try and temper my criticism and expectations accordingly when things happen I don't care for.
  • TheRiddler
    TheRiddler Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
    TheEyeDoctorsWife said:
    entrailbucket said:
    One important piece of information: most of these players used to be big spenders, many in the five-figure range.

    They stopped spending completely once they realized you only need one or two characters to win everything.  If you still needed to spend to win, they absolutely would.  These are not sane people.

    I don't think the devs woke up one day and suddenly decided "let's voluntarily give up hundreds of thousands of dollars to make our most dedicated, angriest players stick around forever!"
    While I can’t speak for all of humanity , I will speak for everyone I know who could afford to spend 5 figures a year on a video game . Not one of them plays video games . And there may be a demographic of tech nerds still living in their parents’ basement with no girl friend who could do that however I believe hopefully that is a statistically insignificant percentage of the population. 
       We have 2 players in our alliance with a 7 figure net worth and even they only drop about $5K a year . Is anyone here in an alliance where players spend over $200 a week? ( Invite me if so)

    The very first alliance I was in when I started that game had a whale that I would confidently say spent over $1000 a week. Every day I would log in and get at least a +7 CP sometimes multiples of +3 and +7. It was crazy and extremely sad when he left.
    The alliance I'm in right now has a guy that buys 3-4 Starks a week.
    So they are out there. That said I'm sure its less than 1% of the base.
    It from time to time makes my mind drift thinking about how we live in a society with so many problems and yet at the same time somebody can drop $1k a week on a match-3 game.

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