Devs, stop releasing dead-on-arrival 5s !!! What is the point of releasing mediocre chars?!?!?

Sekilicious

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Sekilicious said:

As a 4* player looking to transition to 5* play these ‘mediocre’ characters are better than anything I have. There is a thread that showed we can transition using the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider as a solo champ. In a meta with Griity and Thoyoke. 

I get everyone’s philosophy is if you’re not first you’re last but this is kind of ridiculous 

That was my first Grand Experiment thread that seems to have been retired with the sub-forum it existed in during a site cleanup. Mediocre chracters from the above tier are definitely better than who you have, but as soon as you champ them, the threats you get matched up against in PVP will immediately scale up to a degree you are likely to find oppressive. The big takeaway from my GRRR experience was that he was thoroughly ill-equipped to combat the Kitty/Rocket meta, because the qualitative difference between Kitty and Ghost Rider is not something that MMR takes into account, except I was then exclusively matched up against single champ kitty and max-champ rocket basically until Sabretooth was released. Her ability to scale damage turn on turn immediately and passively was something that even a hard hitting (relative to the time) Ghost Rider was too slow to do anything about. At that time pre-shard, it was very difficult to chase counter characters, even at the 4* tier, so I spent the entirity of that meta trying my best to come up with some sort of reasonable team to exist in there. Main event Hulk, my second champed 5* Dr Doom could do it if he legit died in the match, so that left me trying to go solo...it just felt incredibly punishing and there was no reasonable time-frame character growth option for me besides sticking it out or selling off my 5*s to drop back down.

Thanks for clarifying your perspective. Mine is that a single champed Ultron would make PvP significantly more difficult than Polaris and her various counters with a 4* MMR. A single champed Kitty or BRB may make PvP more bearable than Ultron, but a single champed Ultron would make PvE in SCL10 possible beyond spamming endless Winfinites, though maybe not the challenge node. Getting to top-50 to 100 in SCL10 every event is a significant hurdle to champing every 5* as they are released. 

Tiger_Wong

SMH

Yknow…… Not long ago, the big point of complaint was *redacted* Something needs to be done about Hulkoye!”

then…..

“Something needs to be done about BRBityy! *redacted*”

”polartty is so strong and everywhere! *redacted*”

”All I see is Thorkoye! I want diversity! *redacted*”

I said it 4 years ago and it’s not gonna change……. With games like this, “meta” teams will eventually be replaced by another “meta” team. All the same people will eventually complain about that team and then the team that replaced them. 

You’ll never be happy. No. Forget about being “happy”. You’ll never be SATISFIED. *redacted* Just play delete and play another game already. Or even better….. MAKE ONE, since “I don’t know why (insert apparently brilliant idea no one has EVER thought of here) isn’t in the game. It would be so easy to add”

**Mod note: Post has been edited for tone. Please keep your posts civil. Thank you. -fight4thedream

ThaRoadWarrior

I don't know, I had pretty modest goals I felt - full progression capable as a hybrid player without aggressively chasing optimal placement, and to be able to at least win matches offensively. Keep in mind in those days there was no SCL 10 PVE, no shard based growth, most characters were unfed, no wins-based progression in PVP,  it was points or nice knowing you, so just winning and farming retals but never getting your score above 700 was a tough one. Things are different now, the meta is different, in some ways it could be easier to transition with a dud than it was then, but I still maintain there should be no absolute duds in the 5* tier personally. I don't know if that means there should be no head and shoulders standouts either though.

entrailbucket

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I don't know, I had pretty modest goals I felt - full progression capable as a hybrid player without aggressively chasing optimal placement, and to be able to at least win matches offensively. Keep in mind in those days there was no SCL 10 PVE, no shard based growth, most characters were unfed, no wins-based progression in PVP,  it was points or nice knowing you, so just winning and farming retals but never getting your score above 700 was a tough one. Things are different now, the meta is different, in some ways it could be easier to transition with a dud than it was then, but I still maintain there should be no absolute duds in the 5* tier personally. I don't know if that means there should be no head and shoulders standouts either though.

It's the same thing, though.  The duds are only duds *by comparison*. 

If you compare Ultron to Beta Ray Bill, Ultron is worthless, unusable garbage.  If you compare Ultron to Ronan, he looks much better.

HoundofShadow

You look at all the top meta 5* since Gambit era:
Gambit, Thor, Okoye, Kitty, Prof X, BRB, Hulk, Apocalypse, Colossus, Wanda.

All of them are straightforward, easy to play, has low stakes even when things go wrong, doesn't require complicated synergies and mostly work alone well.

When you have characters like Mr Sinister, OMD, Knull, Ronan, Cyclops, Heimdall, Magneto released, they don't fit into the above mold: There are high stakes when things go wrong. So, you need to protect their trap tiles, repeaters and cds. You  need to make sure they aren't replaced or matched away. Most of them takes 2-3 turns to process, which to some players feel like a century has passed by. Their synergies are "complicated". Unlike meta team where synergies are as straightforward as do A and get B, these group of characters' synergies would be something like do A, followed by C, wait a turn or 2 then do D and you'll reach B.

In order to make such characters better, those players' solutions revolve making everything fortified the moment you fire them (so that you don't have to worry about protecting them), kicks off every turn instead of every 2 or 3 turns. Increase their damage/ap. Lower ap cost.

Meta team are strong but largely boring. It's so straightforward you can do something else while using them. Fun team usually don't allow you to do that. You have to set things up and focus properly, so that you can watch your synergies go off.

So, I don't think "mediocre" character is a problem. Instant gratification is the real problem.

LavaManLee

HoundofShadow said:

You look at all the top meta 5* since Gambit era:
Gambit, Thor, Okoye, Kitty, Prof X, BRB, Hulk, Apocalypse, Colossus, Wanda.

All of them are straightforward, easy to play, has low stakes even when things go wrong, doesn't require complicated synergies and mostly work alone well.

Taken one step further, they are all fairly much "set it and forget it" on defense in PVP.  It is really hard for the AI to mess them up due to their passives or their straightforward AP powers.  Many of the other "non-meta"s require thought and specific orders to fire in that the AI is incapable of parsing.  So they become easy picking on PVP defense.

ThaRoadWarrior

HoundofShadow said:

When you have characters like Mr Sinister, OMD, Knull, Ronan, Cyclops, Heimdall, Magneto released, they don't fit into the above mold: There are high stakes when things go wrong. So, you need to protect their trap tiles, repeaters and cds. You  need to make sure they aren't replaced or matched away. Most of them takes 2-3 turns to process, which to some players feel like a century has passed by. Their synergies are "complicated". Unlike meta team where synergies are as straightforward as do A and get B, these group of characters' synergies would be something like do A, followed by C, wait a turn or 2 then do D and you'll reach B.

When there are teams who are murdering you by turn 2 or 3, characters who take 3-4 turns to gather AP to drop a repeater that then takes 3 turns to do anything at all are why I say some of these characters seem intended for a different game than the one we have.

MegaBee

ThaRoadWarrior said:

HoundofShadow said:

When you have characters like Mr Sinister, OMD, Knull, Ronan, Cyclops, Heimdall, Magneto released, they don't fit into the above mold: There are high stakes when things go wrong. So, you need to protect their trap tiles, repeaters and cds. You  need to make sure they aren't replaced or matched away. Most of them takes 2-3 turns to process, which to some players feel like a century has passed by. Their synergies are "complicated". Unlike meta team where synergies are as straightforward as do A and get B, these group of characters' synergies would be something like do A, followed by C, wait a turn or 2 then do D and you'll reach B.

When there are teams who are murdering you by turn 2 or 3, characters who take 3-4 turns to gather AP to drop a repeater that then takes 3 turns to do anything at all are why I say some of these characters seem intended for a different game than the one we have.

In some cases, I think that different game you mention is called PvE.

entrailbucket

MegaBee said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

HoundofShadow said:

When you have characters like Mr Sinister, OMD, Knull, Ronan, Cyclops, Heimdall, Magneto released, they don't fit into the above mold: There are high stakes when things go wrong. So, you need to protect their trap tiles, repeaters and cds. You  need to make sure they aren't replaced or matched away. Most of them takes 2-3 turns to process, which to some players feel like a century has passed by. Their synergies are "complicated". Unlike meta team where synergies are as straightforward as do A and get B, these group of characters' synergies would be something like do A, followed by C, wait a turn or 2 then do D and you'll reach B.

When there are teams who are murdering you by turn 2 or 3, characters who take 3-4 turns to gather AP to drop a repeater that then takes 3 turns to do anything at all are why I say some of these characters seem intended for a different game than the one we have.

In some cases, I think that different game you mention is called PvE.

Except the good characters are also the best in PvE. 

More characters may technically be usable in PvE, but why would you ever use them over the good ones?

ThaRoadWarrior

There are nodes in some PVE events in SCL10 that may as well be PVP, it's not all goon squads.

ThaRoadWarrior

I'll grant you that that relatively new mode Puzzle Gauntlet is a mode that some of these characters seem alright for since the stakes are relatively low and there is no meaningful timer, but puzzles need to be built to showcase these characters if that is where they want them to shine. 

Coming back to Ultron - why are we worried about AP denial in 2021? As Tiger-Wong pointed out, we're here deep in that heavy match-damage meta (which to be quite honest, I don't think is actually what the 5Witch/Colossus meta is - it's a heavy defense meta that rewards stunners and big single target hitters rather than the free AOE meta we are coming off of. 5Witch punishes heavy cascades just as much as she does bulk micro-hits, and Colossus's black is doing the heavy lifting offensively more than his match damage in my experience) so what is the point of only reducing AP? Odin does that too, which makes me think the devs think it matters for some reason? Or potentially is going to matter?

entrailbucket

Odin can drain team up AP if that happens to be their highest AP pool, which is basically the only power in the game that's even a minor inconvenience for Okoye on offense (barring Onslaught, maybe, or 3* Magneto?). 

It's also an extremely minor inconvenience, so much so that I doubt anyone will notice it.

I can't explain Ultron at all.

entrailbucket

ThaRoadWarrior said:

5Witch punishes heavy cascades just as much as she does bulk micro-hits, 

This is so important and so overlooked, although kind of unrelated to the "bad 5*" discussion. 

SW punishes you for *being good at match-3*.

Over 7 years and innumerable thousands of matches I've gotten really good at match-3.  Almost every time I move the board the result is 6AP or more.  I can find little cascades quickly, and sometimes they turn into big ones.  Against SW I have to find ways to be bad at the game.

ThaRoadWarrior

entrailbucket said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

5Witch punishes heavy cascades just as much as she does bulk micro-hits, 

This is so important and so overlooked, although kind of unrelated to the "bad 5*" discussion. 

SW punishes you for *being good at match-3*.

Over 7 years and innumerable thousands of matches I've gotten really good at match-3.  Almost every time I move the board the result is 6AP or more.  I can find little cascades quickly, and sometimes they turn into big ones.  Against SW I have to find ways to be bad at the game.

Actually I think you just need to find ways to be differently good at the game. Maybe make better use of charged tiles for more AP for less hits, stuff like that. I'm not saying I've cracked the case, but to me she is a "good" 5* that isn't wildly OP, she is more like 4* Carol was when she came out. That team AOE for matching strongest color was very briefly a nightmare until we all re-trained ourselves a bit. Also she kind of requires you to have a partner that can do some kind of thing - a lone Wanda is not really any better than a lone Kitty is. Whoever put her out did a good job. I haven't seen a character look as bad on paper as Ultron does since maybe Kingpin, and I'm a person who actively tries to polish turds into diamonds in this game by running non-meta teams.

Tiger_Wong

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Coming back to Ultron - why are we worried about AP denial in 2021? As Tiger-Wong pointed out, we're here deep in that heavy match-damage meta (which to be quite honest, I don't think is actually what the 5Witch/Colossus meta is - it's a heavy defense meta that rewards stunners and big single target hitters rather than the free AOE meta we are coming off of. 5Witch punishes heavy cascades just as much as she does bulk micro-hits, and Colossus's black is doing the heavy lifting offensively more than his match damage in my experience) so what is the point of only reducing AP? Odin does that too, which makes me think the devs think it matters for some reason? Or potentially is going to matter?

I also don’t think Scarlett Steel is about the match damage meta as much as great defense. You either stun them then hit them or hit one of the hard with a one hitter nuke. 

I also agree that Ultron doesn’t look stellar on paper but he has to be controlled to know the deal. His CD I’m looking to use for the stun more than the AP destruction. A black stun that costs 8 AP? I’m here for it. Not a fan of the CD but it is fortified. 

I really feel like a passive CD/repeater manipulating character would turn the meta upside down. And I think it’s coming soon. 

ThaRoadWarrior

Tiger_Wong said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Coming back to Ultron - why are we worried about AP denial in 2021? As Tiger-Wong pointed out, we're here deep in that heavy match-damage meta (which to be quite honest, I don't think is actually what the 5Witch/Colossus meta is - it's a heavy defense meta that rewards stunners and big single target hitters rather than the free AOE meta we are coming off of. 5Witch punishes heavy cascades just as much as she does bulk micro-hits, and Colossus's black is doing the heavy lifting offensively more than his match damage in my experience) so what is the point of only reducing AP? Odin does that too, which makes me think the devs think it matters for some reason? Or potentially is going to matter?

I also don’t think Scarlett Steel is about the match damage meta as much as great defense. You either stun them then hit them or hit one of the hard with a one hitter nuke. 

I also agree that Ultron doesn’t look stellar on paper but he has to be controlled to know the deal. His CD I’m looking to use for the stun more than the AP destruction. A black stun that costs 8 AP? I’m here for it. Not a fan of the CD but it is fortified. 

I really feel like a passive CD/repeater manipulating character would turn the meta upside down. And I think it’s coming soon. 

If you had a character who was passively decrimenting Repeater tiles, you'd suddenly see a TON of Ronans I can tell you that much. I've been waiting for a repeater tweaker ever since Ghost Rider came out and was my only champion who was too slow to live in all modes of the game. (brought it back! lol)

ThaRoadWarrior

Characters who come way out of left field and kind of tantalize you with a meta that is missing just a piece or two are so interesting. I really can't help but feel like Heimdall and Odin have some missing third piece that has yet to reveal itself to us for instance.

Anon

In his 5* thread @Daredevil217 mentioned that in a tier like this, it's better to do one thing extremely well than do a bunch of things mediocre, and it's true. You look at all the meta characters and they're used for 1 or 2 specific reasons. Kitty, Okoye, and Apocalypse are used for boosting. BRB, Wanda, and Colossus are used for defense. Thor is used for AP generation. 

Then you look at characters like Knull, Ultron, and Ronan who are trying to do too many things at once and failing miserably.

Simplicity is key.

justsing

Sekilicious said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Sekilicious said:

As a 4* player looking to transition to 5* play these ‘mediocre’ characters are better than anything I have. There is a thread that showed we can transition using the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider as a solo champ. In a meta with Griity and Thoyoke. 

I get everyone’s philosophy is if you’re not first you’re last but this is kind of ridiculous 

That was my first Grand Experiment thread that seems to have been retired with the sub-forum it existed in during a site cleanup. Mediocre chracters from the above tier are definitely better than who you have, but as soon as you champ them, the threats you get matched up against in PVP will immediately scale up to a degree you are likely to find oppressive. The big takeaway from my GRRR experience was that he was thoroughly ill-equipped to combat the Kitty/Rocket meta, because the qualitative difference between Kitty and Ghost Rider is not something that MMR takes into account, except I was then exclusively matched up against single champ kitty and max-champ rocket basically until Sabretooth was released. Her ability to scale damage turn on turn immediately and passively was something that even a hard hitting (relative to the time) Ghost Rider was too slow to do anything about. At that time pre-shard, it was very difficult to chase counter characters, even at the 4* tier, so I spent the entirity of that meta trying my best to come up with some sort of reasonable team to exist in there. Main event Hulk, my second champed 5* Dr Doom could do it if he legit died in the match, so that left me trying to go solo...it just felt incredibly punishing and there was no reasonable time-frame character growth option for me besides sticking it out or selling off my 5*s to drop back down.

Thanks for clarifying your perspective. Mine is that a single champed Ultron would make PvP significantly more difficult than Polaris and her various counters with a 4* MMR. A single champed Kitty or BRB may make PvP more bearable than Ultron, but a single champed Ultron would make PvE in SCL10 possible beyond spamming endless Winfinites, though maybe not the challenge node. Getting to top-50 to 100 in SCL10 every event is a significant hurdle to champing every 5* as they are released. 

Not sure why you think a single champed Ultron would be more useful in SCL10 PVE than single champed Kitty or BRB…….. I play SCL10 PVE with a single champed Kitty on my alt account and do fine. Kitty is faster than BRB, especially when you can use R4G as a 3rd. But champed BRB isn’t that slow either since Polaris pairs well with him and fuels his AP gen. 

ThaRoadWarrior

Try BRB/Polaris/P4nther, that way you do incremental damage with pretty much every match on top of your other wild nonsense if you don't have a damage booster like Apocalypse or Okoye to help. Turn that protect meta into something offensive.