boosted 5* in pvp: how are you feeling about it after a few weeks

TheRiddler

entrailbucket said:

TheRiddler said:

So I guess my next question here would be that the boosted 5s don't effect your MMR?

So in the Karolina PVP right now for example. My highest character even with boosts is Scarlett Witch at 453 and have another 6 champed 5s in that same range. And I'm currently sitting at 85th in SCL10. And I'm skipping through teams that have duos of boosted 5s in the 570-580 range. Am I out of opponents?

There's not enough information here to determine that.  SCL is completely irrelevant to this discussion, it does not affect matchmaking in any way.  Your current placement is also not relevant.

How many points are these fights worth?  When does your PvP end?  What is your current score?  Are you shielded?

15-40 points. A day left. 416. Unshielded.

entrailbucket

KGB said:

@entrailbucket - The reason he doesn't is because he is refraining from opening LT's. The reason he is doing that is because he is HP constrained as he finishes champing the 3* tier and moves into the 4* tier by rostering all the characters.

Even if he spent a Stark, he'd only net 20 roster spots which isn't enough to roster the entire 4+5 tier (~160 characters) so he'd need to buy 8 Starks! Then he'd need to open ~300 classic legends (6000 cp) to net ~45 5* covers and hope every one of those was for a unique 5* character. That's an incredibly large ask for 3* players transitioning into the 4* tier.

He wasn't having problems queuing teams prior to boosted 5*. The problem now is that no one is using dual 3* champ characters in the 160-200 range (or under covered 4* in the same range) when they can run 2 5* characters at 370 (a single cover 5* levels to 270 and boosts 100 levels) and just win via 5* match damage + huge health (for example my L255 GR is boosted to 368 right now with 30K health so no way 3* champs in the L200 range can compete with that) a lot faster/easier.

The real problem is just adding +100 levels to 5* characters regardless of what level / number of covers they have. It's messing things up badly at lower tiers. They should change the 5* boost so that <L300 it's only a +25 level boost, 301-375 it's only a +50 boost, 375-450 it's only +75 boost and 450+ (ie champed) it's a +100 boost.

KGB

*The strategy being employed here is no longer ideal and nobody has bothered to reconsider it.* 

They're trying to encourage players to not do what he's doing. 

If players would have to open 20,000 CP and spend 80 starks to get a single one-cover 5*, why are all of these other low tier players running one-cover 5*?  They are opening as they go, and they have a few one-cover or two-cover 5* that make them unbeatable that week.

The meta has shifted 180°.  You can't expect to do things the same way you did before.  Open as you go, collect 5* as you go, be successful if you have the 5* that week.

entrailbucket

TheRiddler said:

entrailbucket said:

TheRiddler said:

So I guess my next question here would be that the boosted 5s don't effect your MMR?

So in the Karolina PVP right now for example. My highest character even with boosts is Scarlett Witch at 453 and have another 6 champed 5s in that same range. And I'm currently sitting at 85th in SCL10. And I'm skipping through teams that have duos of boosted 5s in the 570-580 range. Am I out of opponents?

There's not enough information here to determine that.  SCL is completely irrelevant to this discussion, it does not affect matchmaking in any way.  Your current placement is also not relevant.

How many points are these fights worth?  When does your PvP end?  What is your current score?  Are you shielded?

15-40 points. A day left. 416. Unshielded.

You're in the 5th end time (S5 for PvP vets).  It's generally quite a low scoring slice.  At 400ish points I'd expect you to see more than 40-point matches, and certainly nothing as low as 15, so I would say that you probably are out of opponents. 

The end times really are like different leagues, and they play completely differently.  Someone who's an expert on S5 would be able to say if this is normal or not.

In general the best course of action when you're faced with this situation is to wait a few hours then try again.  In the future you may want to consider choosing a different time.  The first and fourth end times have much higher scores, and because of shields, it's really not necessary to be awake at the end.

Bad

This game, like all gacha games, is designed for to be in continuous progress.
Players who put in more concern for to not evolve or other players cannot see them are not actually playing the game. 
Be interested in making progress instead of remain at low profile.
And to know how pvp actually works.
Without the interest to learn and the ambition to grow up the meta always will eat you.

KGB

entrailbucket said:

*The strategy being employed here is no longer ideal and nobody has bothered to reconsider it.* 

They're trying to encourage players to not do what he's doing. 

If players would have to open 20,000 CP and spend 80 starks to get a single one-cover 5*, why are all of these other low tier players running one-cover 5*?  They are opening as they go, and they have a few one-cover or two-cover 5* that make them unbeatable that week.

The meta has shifted 180°.  You can't expect to do things the same way you did before.  Open as you go, collect 5* as you go, be successful if you have the 5* that week.

There has been no official word that this is going to continue going forward or whether it's a short term experiment followed by adjustments. Until there is official word it would be crazy to wildly adjust your strategy after 2 weeks time.

I understand shifting the 5* meta with boosted characters. Makes total sense for those with 5* MMR.

But what's happening now is that the 3 and 4* metas are being made totally obsolete. It's just 2* then straight to 5* and nothing in between. Since your a long time player you'll recall why OML was nerfed. It was because 2* players were drawing a single Yellow cover and riding it. The same thing is now happening in 3/4* land due to the crazy boost being given to 5* which already started at very high levels (as a late stage 4* player with mine in the 320 range all I see are dual boosted 5* or Polaris teams, virtually no dual 4* boosted at all).

It should be very easy to reign in the 5* boost in a manner I suggested (fewer levels for under covered 5*) to prevent this from happening.

KGB

TheRiddler

What is the formula for how many levels are added to a boosted 5*? My undercovered Thor is 114 levels higher but I'm seeing different numbers in PVP. Some are 119 levels higher and seen one that was 121 levels higher. Some sort of multiplier?

entrailbucket

KGB said:

entrailbucket said:

*The strategy being employed here is no longer ideal and nobody has bothered to reconsider it.* 

They're trying to encourage players to not do what he's doing. 

If players would have to open 20,000 CP and spend 80 starks to get a single one-cover 5*, why are all of these other low tier players running one-cover 5*?  They are opening as they go, and they have a few one-cover or two-cover 5* that make them unbeatable that week.

The meta has shifted 180°.  You can't expect to do things the same way you did before.  Open as you go, collect 5* as you go, be successful if you have the 5* that week.

There has been no official word that this is going to continue going forward or whether it's a short term experiment followed by adjustments. Until there is official word it would be crazy to wildly adjust your strategy after 2 weeks time.

I understand shifting the 5* meta with boosted characters. Makes total sense for those with 5* MMR.

But what's happening now is that the 3 and 4* metas are being made totally obsolete. It's just 2* then straight to 5* and nothing in between. Since your a long time player you'll recall why OML was nerfed. It was because 2* players were drawing a single Yellow cover and riding it. The same thing is now happening in 3/4* land due to the crazy boost being given to 5* which already started at very high levels (as a late stage 4* player with mine in the 320 range all I see are dual boosted 5* or Polaris teams, virtually no dual 4* boosted at all).

It should be very easy to reign in the 5* boost in a manner I suggested (fewer levels for under covered 5*) to prevent this from happening.

KGB

OML was one character that was usable all the time.  The boosted 5* change every week.

I'm not sure if there will be an official announcement of this or not, so you may be waiting a very long time.  Part of the allure of this game for many players, including myself, is that the developers used to make fairly frequent, enormous, unannounced changes to the meta that absolutely precluded long-term planning of any kind.  They've gotten away from that for a few years and I hope that it's returned.


Anyway I guess I'm confused about the problem here.  You seem to be suggesting that there are players in the 3* and 4* tiers who are dominating because they have one-cover versions of all the 5*, and also that it's impossible for players at those tiers to have one-cover versions of all the 5*.  Which is it? 

If all of these players only have a few 5* covers, then they're dominating for a week then returning to normal, which is the same boat everyone else is in.

Sekilicious

There are multiple tiers of players, ranging between those who are actually f2p and those who dominate by spending enormous sums. The difference between the extremes is accentuated now that 5* are boosted, because those that spend can expect to to pull as they go, roster everyone they draw, and have the iso to pour into them. Those who cannot spend could expect to compete in PvP by playing optimally. Now the optimal way to play is still to hoard until you have hp to roster, but the game is tilted towards those who spend so they can pull everything as they go and level them without consideration.  Is that healthy for the game? Who knows, right now player expectations seem to be out of line with experience. 

KGB

entrailbucket said:

Anyway I guess I'm confused about the problem here.  You seem to be suggesting that there are players in the 3* and 4* tiers who are dominating because they have one-cover versions of all the 5*, and also that it's impossible for players at those tiers to have one-cover versions of all the 5*.  Which is it? 

If all of these players only have a few 5* covers, then they're dominating for a week then returning to normal, which is the same boat everyone else is in.

I'm saying that the problem is that the 5* boost of 100+ levels is SO overwhelming that players in the 3/4* tier are no longer using champed 3/4 characters. Instead they are just using 1-2 cover 5* characters in PvP because it's way more efficient to do so (easier and faster to win).

They don't dominate in the sense of placement obviously. Instead what happens is that all there is in the list of opponents is boosted 5* characters because that's all that's being used by other players in their same MMR. There are no more 3* vs 3* battles or 3* vs 4* or 4* vs 4*. It's just boosted 5* vs boosted 5*.

And yes, you technically 'dominate' for a week when yours are boosted. BUT YOU ALWAYS FACE boosted 5* every week because there is always someone who happens to have the right boosted 5* for that week. Since as you well know, MMR does not take boost into account you just get matched against boosted 5* even though you may have no boosted characters at all. This is a real problem at 3/4 level PVP because those characters were never designed to be going head-2-head with 5*s (even ones with just 1-2 covers).

As I mentioned, my L255 GR is boosted to 368. He has 31K health, does 325 avg match damage and his 1 cover Black does 4280 damage. If I compare to my L186 Deadpool he's boosted to 272 and has only 14K health and does 4K with his Red. Why would you use Deadpool? Even my max champed Deadpool is only boosted to L367 with 28K health and his Red does 7K which is comparable but match damage he only does 130 so GR will match damage him to death so even a L266 3* is barely usable against a 1 cover L255 GR.

Boosted 5* are great for 5* PvP. They aren't so great for the 3* and 4* PvP where they are crowding out everything else and making it so you only ever face boosted 5* in PvP. That's bad for the 3/4* PvP gaming experience.

The easiest fix is to change the 5* boost from a flat 100+ levels to instead be based on level / covers. Lets say it's based on covers. Take the boost level (113 levels for GR who goes from 255->368) and divide by 13 = ~8.7. So for every cover on your 5* you get 8.7 levels boost. So a single cover 5* gets 8.7 levels and a fully covered one gets 113 levels. Leaves 5* PvP unchanged for those with champs/near champs but restores the game play to 3/4* land where players mostly have a handful of covers for the 5*.

KGB

Phumade

KGB said:

entrailbucket said:

Anyway I guess I'm confused about the problem here.  You seem to be suggesting that there are players in the 3* and 4* tiers who are dominating because they have one-cover versions of all the 5*, and also that it's impossible for players at those tiers to have one-cover versions of all the 5*.  Which is it? 

If all of these players only have a few 5* covers, then they're dominating for a week then returning to normal, which is the same boat everyone else is in.

I'm saying that the problem is that the 5* boost of 100+ levels is SO overwhelming that players in the 3/4* tier are no longer using champed 3/4 characters. Instead they are just using 1-2 cover 5* characters in PvP because it's way more efficient to do so (easier and faster to win).

They don't dominate in the sense of placement obviously. Instead what happens is that all there is in the list of opponents is boosted 5* characters because that's all that's being used by other players in their same MMR. There are no more 3* vs 3* battles or 3* vs 4* or 4* vs 4*. It's just boosted 5* vs boosted 5*.

And yes, you technically 'dominate' for a week when yours are boosted. BUT YOU ALWAYS FACE boosted 5* every week because there is always someone who happens to have the right boosted 5* for that week. Since as you well know, MMR does not take boost into account you just get matched against boosted 5* even though you may have no boosted characters at all. This is a real problem at 3/4 level PVP because those characters were never designed to be going head-2-head with 5*s (even ones with just 1-2 covers).

As I mentioned, my L255 GR is boosted to 368. He has 31K health, does 325 avg match damage and his 1 cover Black does 4280 damage. If I compare to my L186 Deadpool he's boosted to 272 and has only 14K health and does 4K with his Red. Why would you use Deadpool? Even my max champed Deadpool is only boosted to L367 with 28K health and his Red does 7K which is comparable but match damage he only does 130 so GR will match damage him to death so even a L266 3* is barely usable against a 1 cover L255 GR.

Boosted 5* are great for 5* PvP. They aren't so great for the 3* and 4* PvP where they are crowding out everything else and making it so you only ever face boosted 5* in PvP. That's bad for the 3/4* PvP gaming experience.

The easiest fix is to change the 5* boost from a flat 100+ levels to instead be based on level / covers. Lets say it's based on covers. Take the boost level (113 levels for GR who goes from 255->368) and divide by 13 = ~8.7. So for every cover on your 5* you get 8.7 levels boost. So a single cover 5* gets 8.7 levels and a fully covered one gets 113 levels. Leaves 5* PvP unchanged for those with champs/near champs but restores the game play to 3/4* land where players mostly have a handful of covers for the 5*.

KGB

We really need the dev level stats on matches etc.  it’s not that either is wrong in their line of thinking.  But we’re at a fine grain level of discussion where actual match  stats would really inform the discussion.  It’s been literal years since anyone of us played at that tier and even then we had the benefit of high level alliances/coordination/theory crafting.  So our 3*/4* exp would not be considered typical for anyone under Shield rank 75 ish.  

I personally can’t remember when the advance tier got such a big boost.  It would be like FIST//Buster Jean/buster with 75 levels against a simple 3* champ(no champ levels then)

it’s cool to keep up the discussion but you can’t really prove or disprove with out the actual game stats.

HoundofShadow

I think the default choices for them are:

Is my 5* boosted? Can my preferred 3* or 4*  hide behind them? If yes, use them. If not, is my non-boosted 5* effective against boosted 5*? If not, use 3* or 4*. 

3* and 4* players are still using their 3* or 4*. Even with the skewed level of boosted 5* against 3* or 4*, there are still more than enough players who uses champed 4* or 3* for you to play against. 

Timing and slices chosen are important in pvp when you want to climb.

entrailbucket

Phumade said:

KGB said:

entrailbucket said:

Anyway I guess I'm confused about the problem here.  You seem to be suggesting that there are players in the 3* and 4* tiers who are dominating because they have one-cover versions of all the 5*, and also that it's impossible for players at those tiers to have one-cover versions of all the 5*.  Which is it? 

If all of these players only have a few 5* covers, then they're dominating for a week then returning to normal, which is the same boat everyone else is in.

I'm saying that the problem is that the 5* boost of 100+ levels is SO overwhelming that players in the 3/4* tier are no longer using champed 3/4 characters. Instead they are just using 1-2 cover 5* characters in PvP because it's way more efficient to do so (easier and faster to win).

They don't dominate in the sense of placement obviously. Instead what happens is that all there is in the list of opponents is boosted 5* characters because that's all that's being used by other players in their same MMR. There are no more 3* vs 3* battles or 3* vs 4* or 4* vs 4*. It's just boosted 5* vs boosted 5*.

And yes, you technically 'dominate' for a week when yours are boosted. BUT YOU ALWAYS FACE boosted 5* every week because there is always someone who happens to have the right boosted 5* for that week. Since as you well know, MMR does not take boost into account you just get matched against boosted 5* even though you may have no boosted characters at all. This is a real problem at 3/4 level PVP because those characters were never designed to be going head-2-head with 5*s (even ones with just 1-2 covers).

As I mentioned, my L255 GR is boosted to 368. He has 31K health, does 325 avg match damage and his 1 cover Black does 4280 damage. If I compare to my L186 Deadpool he's boosted to 272 and has only 14K health and does 4K with his Red. Why would you use Deadpool? Even my max champed Deadpool is only boosted to L367 with 28K health and his Red does 7K which is comparable but match damage he only does 130 so GR will match damage him to death so even a L266 3* is barely usable against a 1 cover L255 GR.

Boosted 5* are great for 5* PvP. They aren't so great for the 3* and 4* PvP where they are crowding out everything else and making it so you only ever face boosted 5* in PvP. That's bad for the 3/4* PvP gaming experience.

The easiest fix is to change the 5* boost from a flat 100+ levels to instead be based on level / covers. Lets say it's based on covers. Take the boost level (113 levels for GR who goes from 255->368) and divide by 13 = ~8.7. So for every cover on your 5* you get 8.7 levels boost. So a single cover 5* gets 8.7 levels and a fully covered one gets 113 levels. Leaves 5* PvP unchanged for those with champs/near champs but restores the game play to 3/4* land where players mostly have a handful of covers for the 5*.

KGB

We really need the dev level stats on matches etc.  it’s not that either is wrong in their line of thinking.  But we’re at a fine grain level of discussion where actual match  stats would really inform the discussion.  It’s been literal years since anyone of us played at that tier and even then we had the benefit of high level alliances/coordination/theory crafting.  So our 3*/4* exp would not be considered typical for anyone under Shield rank 75 ish.  

I personally can’t remember when the advance tier got such a big boost.  It would be like FIST//Buster Jean/buster with 75 levels against a simple 3* champ(no champ levels then)

it’s cool to keep up the discussion but you can’t really prove or disprove with out the actual game stats.

I agree, also I think KGB and Tanglefoot may be members of a fairly small minority of players overall: lower tier rosters who actually play/care about competing in PvP.

I obviously don't have the numbers, but from bits and pieces we've heard from the devs over the years, lower tier players don't engage with PvP much, if at all.  This makes sense to me because PvP is a bizarre pile of mechanics that don't really make any sense and are never properly explained in-game.

For all we know, this may be giving lower tier engagement a boost -- if players with one or two 5* covers and a jumble of 3*/4* previously avoided PvP completely, maybe now they're playing it during those boosted weeks.

Xception81

Looks like the prior few weeks might have been a test, or our complaining has convinced them they went too far with the boost… cause the House of X PvP boosts the 5*s only 9 levels instead. 

HoundofShadow

None of the 5* that is supposed to be boosted is in there. I think it might be too early to say that. However, if anyone can remember what the boost level was for previous House of X Event, it might be what you said.

Xception81

HoundofShadow said:

None of the 5* that is supposed to be boosted is in there. I think it might be too early to say that. However, if anyone can remember what the boost level was for previous House of X Event, it might be what you said.

Oh good point. Didn’t think about that. Now that I look closer, I see some others are 12 levels boosted. So could just be specific to this event and maybe depends on the covers you have.

Cannibalqueen

I think this is a test run.  For one thing, the chronological clumps of boosted characters just seems clunky.  But I think besides that, it’s too many boosted at one time.
its too short a cycle.  One god boost or two every time would work better I think.  

And not chronological.
in fact certain meta characters, I would think, just don’t boost them.  I mean I do want to see the total bloodbath of Okoye and BRB, iHulk boosted in this test run.  This one time.  

But after that, just take them out of the god boost rotation.  Make it a total mystery

Edit: either that, or maybe run this cycle once a year just to shake things up.  But to see this sequence happen again straight after, I can’t imagine that being good for the game.  It’s gonna start being pretty annoying.

captainheath

I took a year off MPQ, but the boosted 5's are what brought me back.  I don't play much PVP, but PVE is now different every week.  Much more interesting.

Tony_Foot

I wouldn't care if the boost affected your MMR but when you don't have a boosted or a single boosted and are expected to fight through nothing but dual boosted it's not enjoyable at all. But as I've already stated, I don't much like it when I have dual boosted as it's just a health pack sink.

I think I would have enjoyed it so much more not having the boost but just increasing the match damage on older characters. I'm at that point where I can't make my mind up:

Scenario A: Where I have to chase far more characters because of PVP boost
Scenario B: Carry on ignoring the average to poor releases and not play pvp anymore. What I save by not chasing every release can offset the lost CP not playing PVP and just enjoy the PVE gameplay and rewards.

I'm edging towards B but will give it a full run through of the boosted lists.

Timemachinego

I didn't mind them much at first when it was just trash heroes getting a rare day in the sun, but it's getting more and more out of control. If the boost affected MMR that would be one thing but anything under 5* play is currently taking a huge knock just to bring back some lapsed players. I've got allied 3* players that can't catch a winning fight after 500 points, seeing nothing but boosted 5s. Myself in 4 champ, I see about the same once I cross 600 or so. Half the players I used to knock up against in solid 4 roshambo are now running middling boosted 5s and I get blown out by match damage alone. I realize that this game has heavily catered to the topside for most of it's life but you're actually getting WORSE at allowing people to work their way up and that's a real damn feat.

Phumade

I be said this before.  MMR needs to be revamped!

The boost has created a new conundrum that actually can be easily addressed.  The biggest issue is that players can’t set lower defensive mmr teams.  This is commonly called the cupcake nerf and is a big reason why MMR keeps focusing on the boosted  1 cover 5* instead of the champed 4*

returning back to the open cupcake meta will smooth the play exp for the 3*/4* rosters.  

Yes that means 1* cc return, but it also means as players swap out the high level 2 cov 5* for a big champ 4*.   The 4* shows to peer players instead of the boosted 5*