Adventures with 5* Wasp.

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  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,187 Chairperson of the Boards
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    There are characters you bring to Pick 2 nodes, and then there is another class of characters who land in the 3rd wheel spot. I would be fine if Wa5p were even in that category. But she is even lower down the tier than that. It really is too bad Yellowjacket didn't piggyback anything off the Swarm tile mechanic.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,728 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
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    You know, they retooled Doc Ock once upon a time....

    What if they completely retooled Wasp... maybe even doing away with Swarm tiles?

    I mean, it seems like they wanted some swarm synergy thing there, but no other character is gonna run with it, it seems.  So, scrap it!  Make her different.

    I totally get your "bard" comparison -- a jack of all trades...  but I think that's asking for too much from a character in MPQ.  Legion is about the best version of that, because they gave him SIX powers!  It took SIX powers to give someone a little of everything.

    As for Wasp, just pick a thing or three :)  and roll with it.  I personally like themes for a character.  Hulks SHOULD go crazy, doing extra matches, swaps, or team damage.  Makes sense.  Cap and BP SHOULD throw out protects somehow... makes sense.  Unfortunately, not EVERYTHING makes sense in this game, but its nice when they at least "try".  

    Something I was thinking of, what if she had a passive that stated "At the start of each turn, randomly choose one enemy S/A/P tile of strength greater than 1, and reduce it to 1."  This would basically make certain builds ineffective, and wouldn't run the risk of "destroying" tiles for AP gain and whatnot.  It could also represent her "shrinking" something down to unusable size.  You could even make it scale with levels... like, for every extra level after that (i.e. 2 thru 5), "If no enemy tile is randomly selected, then improve one friendly S/A/P tile by # amount."  Hence, her changing the size of that friendly object.

    I should probably stop imagining new skills... not good for my ACTUAL work production.  :tongue:
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 720 Critical Contributor
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    They are few characters in MPQ who are jack of all trades. X-23 is one of such - she is either Tank (5/5/3), nuke/damage (5/3/5) or simple tank/nuke (3/5/5). Perfectly achievable.

    Like I said before: She jut needs some adjusments to be perfectly ok - more appealing yet not completly turn over (from zero to hero). I gave one example, @Tiger_Wong gave another one. She IS jack of all trades. And nothing wrong with that.

    My main issue when i play her is that she too often dies to quickly but still she does the job she is best in: keeping her teammates alive via invisibility and tanking for them) and allowing them to do heavy lifting. She supports, she tanks, she add some damage. On paper she is ok. And that is another problem: IMO they did not wanted to over buff her and if we look at Okoye, Apoc or BRB it makes little to zero sense.

    Also: My plan is to prove her usefullness in 5* land as soon as I get there. Currently, I still need to more than a dozen of M ISO into 4*. Propably in few months I can make a team and post it here to prove that she is better than she looks on 1st look.
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
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    Sorry to break it to you but the worst is actually still to come. Wa5p’s biggest issue is not actually that her powers are convoluted, make little sense and have no synergy with her peers.

    Her biggest problem is that not only are her numbers are incredibly weak but they scale even more poorly by comparison the higher she gets. 
    I wanted her to be good, believe me. I pulled a lot of her covers chasing Okoye and would have valued more options. But she is just unusable against any strong teams, as you’ll no doubt find out. 
    Even boosted to lvl 570 in PvE her numbers still sucked...whatever you do, if you get to 5* land take someone else who is good, preferably 2.
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 720 Critical Contributor
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    @Rod5 And I can prove that you are wrong by saying that numbers arent everything. Polaris is example of character with low numbers: they are multiplied by scale effect. Nico even do not have damaging power. Propably if I would search more I would find other meta characters or usefull one with low numbers.

    I know exactly why she is weak and the source of that. I just do not have time to write it down here. Not yet.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,187 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I thought that about Ghost Rider: Robbie Reyes once upon a time also, and didn't realize what world I was moving through ultimately until I got there. I hope you do prove him wrong, but I expect it to end more like "OMG, what have i done with my life?" unfortunately...
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 720 Critical Contributor
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    @ThaRoadWarrior To whom you are speaking now?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,187 Chairperson of the Boards
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    To you, and your assertion that you will prove Rod5 wrong regarding how useful Wa5p is or isn't. Having watched you quit just before Milestones launched, I'm just feeling like perhaps you'll get Wa5p champed and get disenchanted with the game, which feels like a shame after all this effort

  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
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    Mr_F said:
    @Rod5 And I can prove that you are wrong by saying that numbers arent everything. Polaris is example of character with low numbers: they are multiplied by scale effect. Nico even do not have damaging power. Propably if I would search more I would find other meta characters or usefull one with low numbers.

    I know exactly why she is weak and the source of that. I just do not have time to write it down here. Not yet.
    I never said they are...but that is only true when the character has passive powers that are synergistic with other supporting characters, so the interaction adds up to more than the sum of the parts. 

    Wa5p is not in that category, her powers are expensive and have next to zero synergy so it’s genuinely the worst of both worlds.

    Play with whoever you want, but don’t come back moaning when you can’t win a match.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 720 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2021
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    @ThaRoadWarrior Wasp can be fixed without tweaking her numbers. And I proved that by bringing IW Black Widow and Nico as examples of characters with low damage output in theirs kits. It does not means that it is the right solution here.

    The other part: The big plus of my return is lack of tension. Due to lack of time and exam I almost completly skipped last PVP Season and played nothing more than a DDQ for 2 weeks. Before, I had that tension that I have daily alliance etc.
    I already have problem with winning PVP matches when I use her but that is just a fact. I had problem before chasing Wasp too. I wont complain because when I started chasing Wasp I already knew what that means: completly inability to play PVP competetivly and being crewed by enemies who, for example, are in sam esituation as me but replace Wasp with Kitty or Okoye or whatever. Which is fine for me. Whenever I had to chase an event BRB/Polaris is my go to. Everything else is a fun.
    Abeout my leave/came back part: I decided that I will play as much as I can. If i cant more that DDQ - its just the game. With that In mind I'am back in the moment when game is more fun than tension of whatever. Which is great,
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,187 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Mr_F said:
    @ThaRoadWarrior Wasp can be fixed without tweaking her numbers. And I proved that by bringing IW Black Widow and Nico as examples of characters with low damage output in theirs kits. It does not means that it is the right solution here.

    The other part: The big plus of my return is lack of tension. Due to lack of time and exam I almost completly skipped last PVP Season and played nothing more than a DDQ for 2 weeks. Before, I had that tension that I have daily alliance etc.
    I already have problem with winning PVP matches when I use her but that is just a fact. I had problem before chasing Wasp too. I wont complain because when I started chasing Wasp I already knew what that means: completly inability to play PVP competetivly and being crewed by enemies who, for example, are in sam esituation as me but replace Wasp with Kitty or Okoye or whatever. Which is fine for me. Whenever I had to chase an event BRB/Polaris is my go to. Everything else is a fun.
    Abeout my leave/came back part: I decided that I will play as much as I can. If i cant more that DDQ - its just the game. With that In mind I'am back in the moment when game is more fun than tension of whatever. Which is great,
    I'm glad to hear you're back to having fun with the game, I just hope that continues into champ-hood for Wa5p :)
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 720 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2021
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    Love is Love, my friend. Divorce was never an option.
    Harem is an option and Wasp gladly joined there with X-23, Gwenpool and Spider-Woman followed by Spider-Woman (Gwen), Emma and Silk lately. Empress is and has wings, the others are just princesses.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,728 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I understand your examples...

    IW Widow and Nico both have success largely due to their game-altering kit.  They aren't meta because they don't help deal MORE damage than their peers, and/or they don't provide an efficient amount of AP generation or stun-lock.

    That said, i dont think its news to anyone that Nico and Widow are good.  They are quite fine.  Nico being a "Kitty Jr" is good, and she has a stun option!  Widow has affordable healing AND AP-cheapening abilities, along with a stun option... She's all tool-kit, no punch, but it works well.

    We have yet to see a 5* built in such a fashion.  And honestly, i dont believe we ever will.  My theory is that we have some 4* characters that are dangerously close to being self-sufficient machines, but in order to work properly, they need a team around them.  Well, what's a 5* but supposedly a (much) better 4*?  If a 5* had such a toolkit with no punch, the general concensus would be that he/she would need to be better (more efficient) than a 4* version.  Which, at that point, it could probably lock down a team by him(her)self.  That in itself should never be made, unless it had a MAJOR drawback.... Like a very tiny health pool, or a passive that reads "Your team receives 200% match damage from the enemy".

    Most 5*s (that are worth something, Magneto!) revolve around 1 or 2 ideas.  And they do those things pretty well.  IHulk just provides damage, but with the promise that he'll stick around until the end.  Apoc provides damage, boosting, and protects.  Kitty does boosting, protects, special tile removal, and attack generation.  BRB gives damage, protects, and AP generation for 2 of his colors.  Yes.... Wasp does a lot of this stuff, and more -- But its not at a level close to what those other guys do, in terms of AP efficiency and raw numbers.  

    A non-damaging kit can be very good, and we have 4* versions to prove it.... I just dont know if we'll ever see a 5* meta toolkit character, and i fear the day we do.  ...although, what am i saying -- the cpu probably wont be able to play them correctly.  :lol:
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,187 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Just chiming in to say that N4tasha being good is news to me; she was in contention for least useful 4* since launch for me, now it's a tossup between her and Talos. Nico isn't as good as I wanted her to be, even though i chased her pretty early.


  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,728 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Just chiming in to say that N4tasha being good is news to me; she was in contention for least useful 4* since launch for me, now it's a tossup between her and Talos. Nico isn't as good as I wanted her to be, even though i chased her pretty early.


    Really??  Im surprised.  Both seem rather obvious fun to me.  To put them with Talos is ... Wow.  I feel for them!

    Nico is highly overshadowed by Kitty, but still good for peeps that dont have Kitty.  She buffs ALL tiles, not just 5.  And with Polaris now... Thats a lot of tiles!  Plus healing and stun options.

    Widow is one of those i like to put on a stun-team, because of her passive that affects the enemy team during a stun... And her yellow cheapens things, so you can stun cheaper.  Which just basically holds the enemy down while you proceed to embarrass them.

    To be fair, none of this is meta, as none of it comes without a few matches first.  But its quite simple to get their schemes rolling just a few rounds in.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,187 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2021
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    I like Nico a lot, she just isn't as good as I was hoping she would be is all. But yeah, N4tasha is trash tier for me. Her moves cost SO much and do effectively nothing. 10 yellow on Brush Pass for some burst health and power cheapening...I'd rather use Shuri all day for that service. It's just another example of a character who does a thing worse than an existing character and being redundant at launch. I'd rather use Miles for that invis and Shuri for everything else.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,728 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I like Nico a lot, she just isn't as good as I was hoping she would be is all. But yeah, N4tasha is trash tier for me. Her moves cost SO much and do effectively nothing. 10 yellow on Brush Pass for some burst health and power cheapening...I'd rather use Shuri all day for that service. It's just another example of a character who does a thing worse than an existing character and being redundant at launch. I'd rather use Miles for that invis and Shuri for everything else.
    Well, good to know where you stand on it.  :)  I don't use her often, but when I do, I usually team her with Black Cat, and some blue stunner (Gamora, Iceman, etc).  Stuns on 3 different colors, passives that trigger with stuns.  It's gimmicky, but I find it to be a fun distraction once in a while.
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
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    Nico is good in Balance of power
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 992 Critical Contributor
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    PiMacleod said:

    Well, good to know where you stand on it.  :)  I don't use her often, but when I do, I usually team her with Black Cat, and some blue stunner (Gamora, Iceman, etc).  Stuns on 3 different colors, passives that trigger with stuns.  It's gimmicky, but I find it to be a fun distraction once in a while.

    I read this and imagined your voice sounded just like that Dos Equis guy...
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 720 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2021
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    Kinda not the usuall update.

    I found a team that works with Wasp in PVP Simulator and I can fight:
    3x 360-405 5*
    2x 5* 360-405  + 4*.
    5* 360-baby champ +2x 4*
    Short history: My 1st most covered 5* were Storm and Professor (both at 4) and shards were introduced so I picked Storm to sharget (Dont ask why). Managed to get her 4/2/4 but at the same time Proffesor - through lucky naturall covers pulls - to 3/2/4 but due to lack of ISO they were soft capped to 370 and 345 respectively.
    When I got screwed few times due to lack of 2nd partner and my 5* being to highly leveled* I decided that due to less active powers colour overlap Prof. is better and more usefull due his active purple healing (it procs Wasp's Pain Index) and damage output so i decided to level him to 390 and use them with Agent Coulson.
    Did not went that much well due to fact that Coulson does not help that much and both - Prof and Wasp - died to easily. So when I was down today's morning to 2 health packs and looked for alternative and coverage of green and red powers I found out that Rogue is nice addition. She covers those, she is tank etc and even boost Proff. black's passive.

    And it works in my range. I managed to loose and win some retalation fights on ~50/50 basis and my win ratio is above 90% - i lost some fights - it happens. Of coure meta teams like Thorkoy, Hulkoye or Beta Ray Polaris are still out of my range but the rest is managable.
    This combo works not because Wasp is SO strong but because each character helps the others in some way and that because I do not have any power here that have to prioritetized over anybody.


    *not a surprise - I was expecting this and was ready to skip as many PVP as needed.

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