Adventures with 5* Wasp.

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  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Those were a bit hyped words. Showing the strenght of a outclassed classic 5* is a bit difficult, even if it was a top tier classic, not the case.
    Showing the strenght of talos is posible having a lot of AP available.
    Showing the strenght of emma could be posible with a special tiles team, not compatible with talos and wasp. Her best strenght is feeding kitty.
    Showing the strenght of the 3 on a single team could be the slower battle ever seen.
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2020
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    Well.. I never said that I will put  all three toghether and prove it will work.
    What I want to achieve is to showcase some off-meta attidute. Like "you can enjoy this game without being top 10 everytime". Or "You can enjoy and reach top 50/whatever with trash character*".
    Also If most people are using what is just "best" or "faster" or whatever then maybe, just maybe, there is some hidden combination that works better than many may expect. Of course, I do not expect miracles here and in case of Wasp whatever will work "wonderfull" still may be not better that much good to be used more often.
    Even now I can say that she is stronger than she looks on paper or people thinks she is. IMO, strong enough to be considered to use in some cases.
    Curently my Wasp is high enough to try some testing in PVP outside Simulator. Of course, Hulkoye or Polaris/whatever are a lot easier but I do not care.
    And I will be 1st laughing when somewhen somehow she become meta and I will have her champed/high leveled.


    *To some extent. It may be a bit overdue to use Bagman or 1* Yelena in my MMR and roster.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
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    For that reason Im always advocating for restricted selection or loaned characters on new events. Using characters you never use is like realizing a new game. 
    But I disagree on using trash characters and being top 50. Using trash characters you are multiplying the amount of hits you will take, you are multiplying the effort you need on every event.
    So perhaps you will enjoy it more, but a meta user could be ranking 50 on 2 or 3 vs events on equal time played. Gaining double or triple the amount of resources.
    And he could enjoy the game the same, who knows it.
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    Well I did top 50 with shields and non meta 4* so I think I can reach at least top 100 with Wasp and Shielding. Yep, a lot harder and packs consuming but still wanna try.
    Also I know by my expierence that I could be top 50 everytime if I do it corectly but I dont have that much time and sanity to do it. So I believe that if I just tried, I could reach top 50 in few PVP events per season while using Wasp. And I'll be honest: it heavily depends on what character is featured and boosted (and whether I have it champed too).
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    Today's reward: Ant Man into level 300 -> Wasp 9th cover. Current build 3/2/4, next will be either 4/2/4 or 3/3/4.

  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 982 Critical Contributor
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    Mr_F said:
    Today's reward: Ant Man into level 300 -> Wasp 9th cover. Current build 3/2/4, next will be either 4/2/4 or 3/3/4.

    I'm going to drink a toast the day you finally champion her. This quest genuinely makes me happy.
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2020
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    @MegaBee Keep best for Next level: max champing her...
  • AXP_isme
    AXP_isme Posts: 809 Critical Contributor
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    I will have bought a vineyard, grown, pressed and bottled my own vintage wine and had it acclaimed and given a 100% rating by Robert Parker's zombie by the time you max-champ wa5p. 
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
    edited December 2020
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    Well... Challenge accepted? :wink:
  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 991 Critical Contributor
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    I just pulled my 13th Wasp cover. She’s now 5/4/4 waiting for ISO. Are you jealous? ;)
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    helix72 said:
    I just pulled my 13th Wasp cover. She’s now 5/4/4 waiting for ISO. Are you jealous? ;)

    Not at all. Should I?
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
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    Mr_F said:
    Well I did top 50 with shields and non meta 4* so I think I can reach at least top 100 with Wasp and Shielding. Yep, a lot harder and packs consuming but still wanna try.
    Also I know by my expierence that I could be top 50 everytime if I do it corectly but I dont have that much time and sanity to do it. So I believe that if I just tried, I could reach top 50 in few PVP events per season while using Wasp. And I'll be honest: it heavily depends on what character is featured and boosted (and whether I have it champed too).
    As an aside, I would probably stick to using 4s in PvP - having a weak but over-levelled 5 in your team will make you visible to lots of players who will make it very difficult for you to get placement rewards. I know if I ever see Wa5p in PvP it’s an insta-hit, so 4s are probably a better bet. Plus they are likely faster and more effective anyway (esp if boosted) which you will need if you are shield-hopping.
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2021
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    Well...  screw the PVP. I mean, I dont care that much about PVP. Most of the time I want 13 or 16 wins and leave it.
    Also I got 700 pts at best without shielding in Festival of Fights while using only Wasp. So... you know. Final result 500. Still good.
    So above statement is still correct. Yours also - If someone care about placement rewards.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,724 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I do like and understand the whole "play the game without it being meta" schtick.  It does make things a bit more interesting... and, pending a win, actually fun too.

    In Throg's PvP, I used the loaner (obviously), along with my 5/3/3 St5rm and champed Negasonic, and completely obliterated a champed BRB/Polaris/loaner Throg team.  That was a great feeling.  Storm's black, plus Nega's green passive, means cascades for days!  Throg just helps it all out with those blue repeaters.

    Keep it up, Mr. F.  We're all watching.  :)
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    I wasnt playing much laletly- cause I have an exam. Which I failed. Bu still I got some progress. Also I have 340 shards soon: i just need one more 4* champion and 5* cover from milestones.


  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    OK, I had some time to play her more lastly. I have to agree At level 405 when her match damage is 1100+ for weakest colour I can confirm: Sadly I have to confirm 1st handly that she does so many things in so weak way... Her biggest problem is not unique to her: she just takes to long to get crazy. All because her powers do so little...

    I cant complain: I was warned by many of You but there is the other side of the coin. She is the MOST beautifull character in the game, followed my Silk (yep - as soon as she enters pack and my Ant Man will be 320+ I will switch to her). And, I know how it will sounds to many, but still I will say it:
    The reason why I cant enjoy playing Legion or IHulk is that they are UGLY in so many ways - not only their art. Not to mention, so utterly USELESS in what they can do! YES! For me IHulk is more useless than Wasp!* Any character who HAS to do self damage to be usefull is trash for me and I cant stand the fact that Legion is slowest characters ever to play cause his power switch force us to do so many planing to make him usefull that I will just pass.

    So basically: she is weak. Way to weak. Bust still strong enough to beat any 5* not used in meta combo (like Hulkoye or BRB/Polaris).
    Does she needs rework? Nah. What she needs is AP cost reduction and Pain Index doing more damage or healing more. We need weaker characters. Not everybody has to be meta. So...




    *Despite being part of Hulkoye team.
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,724 Chairperson of the Boards
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    See, I agree with you on the "not everyone has to be meta"... but that doesn't mean that they can't ALSO be useful.

    When it comes to W5sp, I don't think anyone EVER thought that she has to be a "strong" character.  In fact, when I think of Wasp, I would think the idea should be "bringing the enemy down", not necessarily damaging them, or even healing the team.  

    If she did something along the lines of "for every blue AP your team has, the enemy does 3% less match damage", that'd be interesting!  It could stop a LOT of match damage problems from Carnage, Adam Warlock, America Chavez, Karnak, etc.

    Being meta isn't necessary.  Being useful is.  :)
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    She is usefull. Its just her usefullness for a team is some AP steal and expensive invisibility.  Maybe tanking (due to burts healing). Thats it.

    You brought also another PoV. Mine is more like DMG your is supportish. Both ideas are good.
    There are many ways/ideas how to make her more usefull. Passive AP steal on Sting Operations. CtS being AoE or dealing X damage per swarm tile on a board. Shrink Tactics granting something more than just invisibility (like +X AP in strongest colour for character on who it's been used). AP cost reduction (not on CtS) - maybe 1 per swarm tile on board
    Or realising some 5*/4* that can use swarm tiles more effecively.

    After reading ypur Idea I would like her to be more like X-23 who can be either tank (5/5/3 build) or damage dealer (5/3/5 build). Or her being more like 4* Black Widow: excellent support character with low damage output.

    Still, she is stronger than IHulk. For me.
  • Tiger_Wong
    Tiger_Wong Posts: 1,018 Chairperson of the Boards
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    All that REALLY needs to happen is make the payoff for CotS better. It doesn’t even have to more damaging. 

    Make it give AP on explosion.
    or
    Make it stay on the field and add more Swarm tiles. 
    Or 
    Make her match damage go up more for a few turns after activating it. 
    Or
    add another hit of damage for each Swarm time on the field
    Or
    Make it stun other characters.
    make it steal AP every turn or when it activates. 
    Or
    Make it suppress enemy AP gain or power activation. 
    Or..... just SOMETHING worthwhile. The board shake is wack and the damage is awful. I can actually work around the cost of CotS so I don’t have to fire her powers to get swarm tiles out so I can just concentrate on getting 10 in blue/yellow/black AP. 

    But the payoff for that is...... not worth it. And that’s my biggest problem with her. 
  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 712 Critical Contributor
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    Honestly, Wasp problem is that, she does so little for so much effort. She is Jack of All Trades, like a bards in D&D.
    Let's look:
    Damage: present (Pain Index, CtS)
    Tanking: present (Pain Index)
    Support: present (Shrinking tactics; Sting Operation)
    Board Control: present (CtS, swarm tiles)
    The only thing she can't do is nuking
    But for every of this I can name a 2* character who do it better.

    But that is her kit. That is what she is like. Jack of All Trades. You see, I am propably the Only or one of the few players who has most/much experience with her so that I can easilly say ya that CtS lack of usefullness may not the problem here. Call the Swarm is just cherry on the pie: extra flavor in her kit, not her purpose. In most cases I fire it because I can and have AP not because I planned, want or whatever. Its just "accident" that happens. Her main powers are main source of joy for me. And in most cases I keep my Black version CtS not fired just because her Pain Index is better/more usefull. That is why I said that ist the power that needs boost.

    My idea: Give Sting Operation Passive AP steal while keeping active steal too. Make her Shrinking Tactics be team Invisibility (albeit her) and boost Pain Index Damage or burst heal - not both - twice/twicish (preferably the heal). And then make her CtS AOE without boosting damage maybe even with turn endidng (like Hoods Twin Pistols). With that, AP costs may be left intact.

    In other words: your purpose should never or rarely be to fire CtS. Not because its weak but because her basic powers are better/more usefull that just raw dmg.

    The other idea/option here is going Tiger Wong path: keeping her basic power intact and then making CtS a nuke. Like twice the current damage, AOE, AP gain and teammates stun for 2-1 turns.

    Of coure those are juest all our raws ideas that needs to be tested. Her current kit is not weak. Its just lacks something.

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