Character Updates - September 2020

jp1

krakenoon said:

The point I was trying to make is that anyone not in 5land before the restructuring has had the goalposts moved. Yes, overall there are “more” rewards, but anyone not reaping the benefits of a roster featuring numerous champed 4*s are not able to keep up rostering costs without paying or playing way too much. Before the restructure, players could ride out filling their roster with a variety of methods.
Now, it could be argued that with dilution now moving into the 5* tier, the 2000 HP rostering cost will catch up to vets sooner, it is still an obstacle anyone looking to roster all non-limiteds will eventually have to face.
Also, I don’t see how the only viable method of getting specific 5* shards is roughly the same rewards.

Actually for me, it has been a net loss. As I mentioned I was hitting 47X before the changes and now while grinding harder I am barely getting baby champs. 

Sure, I’ll get half a cover once a year for a classic that will likely never result in any of them getting champed. Yes, I can also “sharget” a five now, with worse results than the previous bonus system.

Vhailorx

jp1 said:

krakenoon said:

The point I was trying to make is that anyone not in 5land before the restructuring has had the goalposts moved. Yes, overall there are “more” rewards, but anyone not reaping the benefits of a roster featuring numerous champed 4*s are not able to keep up rostering costs without paying or playing way too much. Before the restructure, players could ride out filling their roster with a variety of methods.
Now, it could be argued that with dilution now moving into the 5* tier, the 2000 HP rostering cost will catch up to vets sooner, it is still an obstacle anyone looking to roster all non-limiteds will eventually have to face.
Also, I don’t see how the only viable method of getting specific 5* shards is roughly the same rewards.

Actually for me, it has been a net loss. As I mentioned I was hitting 47X before the changes and now while grinding harder I am barely getting baby champs. 

Sure, I’ll get half a cover once a year for a classic that will likely never result in any of them getting champed. Yes, I can also “sharget” a five now, with worse results than the previous bonus system.

But there are more 5*s being released, so you have to account for that.  455 is 18 covers.  470 is 33 covers. 

18 * 12 5*s released a year at the current pace is 216 5* covers (plus the classic characters shards that you can also get in 40% of events).

33 * 8.67 5*s released on the old pace is ~286 covers. 

So if the pve changes really do account for the entirety of that gap, you have lost about 1.3 5* covers a week with the new system.

For me under the old system, if I regularly played pve to max prog, I could get 8-10 covers for most 5*s while they were in LTs, and it was pretty easy to stop at one token cover for any given 5* and roll those covers over to later LT pools.  Under the new system, I am earning 5* covers at about the same rate, or maybe a tiny bit more.  But since some of those rewards are in shards, it's harder to roll progress over to high value LT pools.  I am also earning a ton more 4* covers though, and those champ rewards would probably make a difference in my math if I were more diligent about champing and applying all those extra levels right away.  As is, shard levels for my 4* roster have more or less become my new piggy bank, just waiting to be applied when I decide I really want to chase a particular character and need to squeeze every last token, HP and CP.

Michael1957

Being new to 5* and SCL 10 for less than a month , this new system is much more profitable. Apocalypse will leave with 9 covers , making him my second highest level character. 8 months ago I was lucky to get 4-5 covers on a new 5* before leaving LT. I wondered for years how it was possible to champ a 5*, now I see it’s not completely out of reach for even an average player 

jp1

Vhailorx said:

jp1 said:

krakenoon said:

The point I was trying to make is that anyone not in 5land before the restructuring has had the goalposts moved. Yes, overall there are “more” rewards, but anyone not reaping the benefits of a roster featuring numerous champed 4*s are not able to keep up rostering costs without paying or playing way too much. Before the restructure, players could ride out filling their roster with a variety of methods.
Now, it could be argued that with dilution now moving into the 5* tier, the 2000 HP rostering cost will catch up to vets sooner, it is still an obstacle anyone looking to roster all non-limiteds will eventually have to face.
Also, I don’t see how the only viable method of getting specific 5* shards is roughly the same rewards.

Actually for me, it has been a net loss. As I mentioned I was hitting 47X before the changes and now while grinding harder I am barely getting baby champs. 

Sure, I’ll get half a cover once a year for a classic that will likely never result in any of them getting champed. Yes, I can also “sharget” a five now, with worse results than the previous bonus system.

But there are more 5*s being released, so you have to account for that.  455 is 18 covers.  470 is 33 covers. 

18 * 12 5*s released a year at the current pace is 216 5* covers (plus the classic characters shards that you can also get in 40% of events).

33 * 8.67 5*s released on the old pace is ~286 covers. 

So if the pve changes really do account for the entirety of that gap, you have lost about 1.3 5* covers a week with the new system.

For me under the old system, if I regularly played pve to max prog, I could get 8-10 covers for most 5*s while they were in LTs, and it was pretty easy to stop at one token cover for any given 5* and roll those covers over to later LT pools.  Under the new system, I am earning 5* covers at about the same rate, or maybe a tiny bit more.  But since some of those rewards are in shards, it's harder to roll progress over to high value LT pools.  I am also earning a ton more 4* covers though, and those champ rewards would probably make a difference in my math if I were more diligent about champing and applying all those extra levels right away.  As is, shard levels for my 4* roster have more or less become my new piggy bank, just waiting to be applied when I decide I really want to chase a particular character and need to squeeze every last token, HP and CP.

I think you aren’t accounting for HP loss or the fact that champ rewards are worse all around which has a large impact on a fully developed roster. Otherwise, I don’t know what to tell you, under one system I wasn’t just champing the five, I was adding a significant amount of champ levels (in itself a waterfall effect to champ the next and so on) and now I am not. Sure, it isn’t the case for everyone, and for those who are benefiting from the new system I am sincerely happy. 

Rewards across the board need to scale with shield levels I think, in order to compensate.

Daredevil217

jp1 said:

Vhailorx said:

jp1 said:

krakenoon said:

The point I was trying to make is that anyone not in 5land before the restructuring has had the goalposts moved. Yes, overall there are “more” rewards, but anyone not reaping the benefits of a roster featuring numerous champed 4*s are not able to keep up rostering costs without paying or playing way too much. Before the restructure, players could ride out filling their roster with a variety of methods.
Now, it could be argued that with dilution now moving into the 5* tier, the 2000 HP rostering cost will catch up to vets sooner, it is still an obstacle anyone looking to roster all non-limiteds will eventually have to face.
Also, I don’t see how the only viable method of getting specific 5* shards is roughly the same rewards.

Actually for me, it has been a net loss. As I mentioned I was hitting 47X before the changes and now while grinding harder I am barely getting baby champs. 

Sure, I’ll get half a cover once a year for a classic that will likely never result in any of them getting champed. Yes, I can also “sharget” a five now, with worse results than the previous bonus system.

But there are more 5*s being released, so you have to account for that.  455 is 18 covers.  470 is 33 covers. 

18 * 12 5*s released a year at the current pace is 216 5* covers (plus the classic characters shards that you can also get in 40% of events).

33 * 8.67 5*s released on the old pace is ~286 covers. 

So if the pve changes really do account for the entirety of that gap, you have lost about 1.3 5* covers a week with the new system.

For me under the old system, if I regularly played pve to max prog, I could get 8-10 covers for most 5*s while they were in LTs, and it was pretty easy to stop at one token cover for any given 5* and roll those covers over to later LT pools.  Under the new system, I am earning 5* covers at about the same rate, or maybe a tiny bit more.  But since some of those rewards are in shards, it's harder to roll progress over to high value LT pools.  I am also earning a ton more 4* covers though, and those champ rewards would probably make a difference in my math if I were more diligent about champing and applying all those extra levels right away.  As is, shard levels for my 4* roster have more or less become my new piggy bank, just waiting to be applied when I decide I really want to chase a particular character and need to squeeze every last token, HP and CP.

I think you aren’t accounting for HP loss or the fact that champ rewards are worse all around which has a large impact on a fully developed roster. Otherwise, I don’t know what to tell you, under one system I wasn’t just champing the five, I was adding a significant amount of champ levels (in itself a waterfall effect to champ the next and so on) and now I am not. Sure, it isn’t the case for everyone, and for those who are benefiting from the new system I am sincerely happy. 

Rewards across the board need to scale with shield levels I think, in order to compensate.

Now all of this I absolutely agree with. I find it harder to champ 5s with all these changes and prior to the changes to number of CL10 clears, I was playing twice as much to make less progress. 

To the Dev’s credit, they DID make those CL10 changes, and though it pushed me out of T20 due to more players migrating to 10, I really appreciate the two less clears. Also it is indisputably easier to champ 4s under the new system. While that matters very little to me as a 5* player (dilution is so bad that just champing doesn’t do much rewards-wise as those only get juicy in much later levels), for the 4* players and transitioners it is great. 

That said, while agree, all this has very little to do with the Bish-nerf, which I remain happy about. 

PiMacleod

I'm happy with the bishop nerf.  Its really simple, to me...

I'm a 5* player.  I worked for a LONG LONG time (since beta) to get here.  I have only so many champed 5s.  I barely spend anything on this game (like, the $2 monthly thing to keep the bonus stuff rolling in, and even then, Google Surveys pay for them).

So, after all this time and grinding, getting to the top platform (so-to-speak), and seeing a commonly used 4* constantly thwarting these characters I grinded so hard for... its kind of a slap in the face.

I mean, when I look at a PvP opponent, and I see champed 5*, champed 5*, champed Bishop... Bishop is the FIRST PERSON that assaults my eyes with the experience and knowledge that HE is the main problem.  Can I get past him?  Maybe stun him early?  Maybe go for lower damage hits.... but those 5*s are beefy!  I can't withstand that barrage while I'm doing tap-tap-tap to not disturb the sleeping giant....  It's such a silly situation.

Sure, there's counters.  Apoc has been a blessing.  SS is okay... at best.  But in the end, going down to an all 4* team means all my fun 5* dudes are for naught.  Requiring a certain 5* to withstand his annoyance is limiting, but that's at least managable... until his partners become iHulkOkoye, and then you gotta withstand their shenanigans while you deal with the silly 4* threat!

Ugh.  You all know how this goes.  It's not news.  And yeah, we all spent time leveling and grinding for Bishop, because he was CLEARLY meta material.  You're silly if you didn't.  Same goes for Polaris now.

I'm not mad about that nerf at all.  Sure, my Bishop will now collect dust along with a bunch of other peeps.  But that's okay, because now more of my 5*s can breathe.  And honestly, when you hoard and hoard and finally pull for 5*s, opening that long-awaiting birthday/christmas present, the last thing you wanna think is "Can this character succeed against that 4*?  That's silly.  5*s should be celebrated (generally... looking at you Wasp).

And as others said, video games get nerfs and buffs all the time, for the health of the game, and also to make the community happy.  Purchases happen, and get changed, and companies receive major backlash, or press, or whatever due to it.  No biggy.  In the end, a new meta emerges, new complaints will be made, and maybe the game community can get closer to a singular voice of content.  

Side note:  I would implore most game devs to look at the Smash community, versus other game communities.  If you look at Overwatch, Apex, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, etc... there's clearly higher tiered characters, and people calling for nerfs/buffs left and right.  In the Smash community, there's a little here and there, but generally, you can search the net and find videos for (nearly) every character in that 70+ roster getting mad combos and sweet plays.  That's awesome.  It's quite remarkable for a game of that popularity and audience, and with such a giant roster size, to have any semblance of being near-balanced.  Sure, there'll always be argument for/against changes, but they've somehow managed to get it so close that the players are generally cool with it.  Now online lag.. that's another topic. 

DAZ0273

So today is the day of the big Bish bosh, right? I am intrigued to see how neutered he and Captain no longer Worthy are gonna be.

Xception81

DAZ0273 said:

So today is the day of the big Bish bosh, right? I am intrigued to see how neutered he and Captain no longer Worthy are gonna be.

Looks like mine just came through. 

PiMacleod

The sell prices are crazy good.  I have champed Bishop/Worthy.... but not maxed.  Each gives 6000 HP.  Another in my alliance has un-champed Bishop/Worthy.  Each sells for 3k HP for him.  ....he's doing it... he needs slots (still building roster).

Vhailorx

They didn't mention the change to Bishop's yellow.  Now it requires 6 friendly protect tiles, and converts tiles to blue basics rather than straight up generating blue.  So they really did nerf everything about his ap gen.

As for worthy, I wonder if he is have some niche uses as a means of absorbing match 4s in cl10. But the problem is that match3 damage (let alone power damage) will eat him alive against 650s, so I doubt it will be very reliable.

Seems like both characters are dead to the meta now.

Spudgutter

Vhailorx said:

They didn't mention the change to Bishop's yellow.  Now it requires 6 friendly protect tiles, and converts tiles to blue basics rather than straight up generating blue.  So they really did nerf everything about his ap gen.

As for worthy, I wonder if he is will have some niche uses as a means of absorbing match 4s in cl10. But the problem is that match3 damage (let alone power damage) will eat him alive against 650s, so I doubt it will be very reliable.

Seems like both characters are dead to the meta now.

To absolutely no one's surprise lol

Vhailorx

Spudgutter said:

Vhailorx said:

They didn't mention the change to Bishop's yellow.  Now it requires 6 friendly protect tiles, and converts tiles to blue basics rather than straight up generating blue.  So they really did nerf everything about his ap gen.

As for worthy, I wonder if he is will have some niche uses as a means of absorbing match 4s in cl10. But the problem is that match3 damage (let alone power damage) will eat him alive against 650s, so I doubt it will be very reliable.

Seems like both characters are dead to the meta now.

To absolutely no one's surprise lol

for sure!  A classic Demi nerf-into-ground in the tradition of sentry and XFW and Gambit, etc.

Vhailorx

I don't recall the last time a 4* was significantly nerfed (maybe the 'buff' to Mr. F?), but was the resale price 6k?

Is 6k HP enough to justify selling a champ? 

I think the answer is clearly yes if you already have a dupe.  But if you only have one copy of the character and no shards, what does everyone think?   

To me it is a tiny bit tempting, but not an easy 'yes.'  HP is harder to get these days and 6k is several months worth of roster slots.  But getting 15-30 covers for a vintage 4* is still a fair bit of work (assuming you had a baby champ).  It will hurt on the off chance that a character's PVP rolls around.  But that is pretty low odds, and the amount of non-essential usage I get for non-meta 4*s is absolutely trivial these days. 

PiMacleod

Somebody at one point (can't remember who or where or whatever) hypothesized if Hammercap's passive would still block the damage from follow up damage due to match 4's... like 5*prof's passive, or Onslaught's.  

I can advise with 100% assurance that it does NOT block that damage.  I just tried it in the BFF PvP, against a Onslaught and Apoc (yes, this was suicide, but it was for science!)

Hammer jumped in, blocked the match 4, then promptly died from Onslaught's passive.

So, yeah... he's useless.    3* Loki makes the 4 CDs you were looking for upon enemy match 4s. 
....but will die promptly nearly anyone in the 5* tier. 

Michael1957

Vhailorx said:

I don't recall the last time a 4* was significantly nerfed (maybe the 'buff' to Mr. F?), but was the resale price 6k?

Is 6k HP enough to justify selling a champ? 

I think the answer is clearly yes if you already have a dupe.  But if you only have one copy of the character and no shards, what does everyone think?   

To me it is a tiny bit tempting, but not an easy 'yes.'  HP is harder to get these days and 6k is several months worth of roster slots.  But getting 15-30 covers for a vintage 4* is still a fair bit of work (assuming you had a baby champ).  It will hurt on the off chance that a character's PVP rolls around.  But that is pretty low odds, and the amount of non-essential usage I get for non-meta 4*s is absolutely trivial these days. 

Is the offer of 6K HP permanent or a limited time offer ?

PiMacleod

@Michael1957
 Limited time.  They announced it as a limited time offer due to the negative changes made to those characters.

Vhailorx

Michael1957 said:

Vhailorx said:

I don't recall the last time a 4* was significantly nerfed (maybe the 'buff' to Mr. F?), but was the resale price 6k?

Is 6k HP enough to justify selling a champ? 

I think the answer is clearly yes if you already have a dupe.  But if you only have one copy of the character and no shards, what does everyone think?   

To me it is a tiny bit tempting, but not an easy 'yes.'  HP is harder to get these days and 6k is several months worth of roster slots.  But getting 15-30 covers for a vintage 4* is still a fair bit of work (assuming you had a baby champ).  It will hurt on the off chance that a character's PVP rolls around.  But that is pretty low odds, and the amount of non-essential usage I get for non-meta 4*s is absolutely trivial these days. 

Is the offer of 6K HP permanent or a limited time offer ?

Limited time.  Usually ~4 weeks immediately following a nerf

Edit: it's apparently 2 weeks for the stunner Bros et Al (and those who got buffed, like archangel, retain normal sell-back pricing)

skittledaddy

Vhailorx said:

Michael1957 said:

Vhailorx said:

I don't recall the last time a 4* was significantly nerfed (maybe the 'buff' to Mr. F?), but was the resale price 6k?

Is 6k HP enough to justify selling a champ? 

I think the answer is clearly yes if you already have a dupe.  But if you only have one copy of the character and no shards, what does everyone think?   

To me it is a tiny bit tempting, but not an easy 'yes.'  HP is harder to get these days and 6k is several months worth of roster slots.  But getting 15-30 covers for a vintage 4* is still a fair bit of work (assuming you had a baby champ).  It will hurt on the off chance that a character's PVP rolls around.  But that is pretty low odds, and the amount of non-essential usage I get for non-meta 4*s is absolutely trivial these days. 

Is the offer of 6K HP permanent or a limited time offer ?

Limited time.  Usually ~4 weeks immediately following a berf

2 Weeks per Anthony (on Discord)

krakenoon

@Vhailorx
I have 0 shards and no additional covers for Worthy. I can almost assuredly say that he will be essential before I can reroster him but I still plan to sell him. I will be able to reroster him after he is featured and I’m not sure that him becoming a feeder would be worth it for me as I am currently 2 characters from completing rostering the non-limited 4s, have my 3* farm about to rotate and have a couple of handfuls of 5s rostered.

6k HP is 6k HP and should just about bridge the gap of what I need to cover my farms and moving into my 5* roster.

DyingLegend

Even though 12k HP seems enticing, I do not need 12 slots right now and I firmly believe they will be more beneficial to my roster than trying to re-cover them.