**** Karolina Dean (Runaways) ****

RickOShay

Strength 148 Protect tiles on her blue at level 5 is quite normal for a base Champ character for 6 AP.
You're almost certain to get 3 of these over 3 turns (and then convert them to strikes), then generate 5 blue AP to fire it again quickly.
I am often guilty of comparing these 'low' starting values to my level 300 - 330+ characters, which isn't actually fair.

For comparison, Nico's purple (8 AP) at level 270 creates 3x strength 227 SAP tiles. Karolina blue is 6 AP for ~3x 148.

Karolina's Yellow still needs to be set at level 3 though I believe, which does result in very weak protect tiles. Certainly she's designed to be paired with Nico who will quickly increase special tile strength to meaningful levels. And as stated, you'll be much better off to play Nico's yellow anyway. 

Green has low team damage, but this has to be designed that way to be off-set by the healing it generates. 
However, with Karolina airborne quite often, Nico's true heal on yellow, and the protect tiles ramping up in value, I'm sure we could have this damage set much higher, since healing may not be a huge issue.
It is comparable damage to a base champ Dazzler's green with 3 special tiles out, so that's fair I guess? And you should plan to play Karolina's green once you have converted some strike tiles.

Again, I think she will be very tough to deal with when paired with Magik, C4rol, Bishop, or certainly when with Medusa.  

I generally prefer each character to be designed with at least 1 single-target nuke, so Karolina will be nearly 100% support. She probably deserves a lower ranking due to all of this, but I'm not sure yet she's toward the bottom.

purplemur

Can we get clarification on the Blue CD & passive heal while airborne:
CD) It reads to me like if she triggers the passive then it flips 3 shields and removes the CD. If the CD does not tick off its 1 then no AP gain. If true makes the power really questionable.

Heal) will the heal buff apply while she is airborne?

W/ nico:
The overlap isn't so bad, KD tanks yellwow, Nico needs to tank to get going so until then you would drop KD's yellow, she goes airborne to dodge a big hit so Nico steps in front and takes the hit, next turn gets a huge heal back from yellow then when KD lands those strikes start to get dangerous.
I would still choose Nico's stun/removal like 96% over KD's airborne Bewilderment type power.

Totally have to run yellow at 5 covers for the double shields and heal buff - Her heal passive is the only power that looks at all remarkable.

Protect value doesn't matter if its just fodder for Panther/BRB/lockjaw

Vhailorx

Disagree RickOShay,

150 strength tiles are low.  Nico at level 209 makes stronger ones.  Blade, at 270, passively makes tiles twice as strong.  Both nova and gamora make strength ~250 tiles on 6ap powers (that have other significant benefits as well).

And worse, Carolina makes weak protect tiles that then need to be modified by other effects to become strikes. 

The suggested gameflow here is to tank yellow with Karolina until she can go airborne, then hope that you get several protects converted to strikes and THEN boost them with Nico until useful.

I'm sorry, but that is a total waste of time.  Grocket + Juggs gives you almost as much aoe as karolina's green for passively on round 1.  Gamora or nova both offer super cheap enemy disables + tile spam.  Sabertooth offers cheap powers and tons of boardshake.  Carol or coulson will have much much stronger tiles in far less time (plus stronger nukes, better board control, and good defensive passives).  I could go on. . .

There's basically no scenario where playing Nico + Karolina will be a top tier solution.  It will probably work just fine.  But it takes too long.  And MPQ wants me to play 60+ matches a day, with a scoring system that favors speed. 

This is a bad design given the existing realities of the game.

Also, I read the blue as only providing AP when it resolves, and her passive does not appear to resolve the tile, but removes it.  So you get 5 blue AP, OR convert some tiles to strikes. This affects my view of her utility a little bit, though I would still think she were meh either way.

ThaRoadWarrior

I'm going to try pairing her with Shuri/Flaptain or Shuri/P4nther, see how it plays. Cheap powers getting cheaper is always fun, and that team doesn't really care what the quality of the protects is, just that there are a lot of them.

purplemur

blankcanvas said:

I would also try her with Hammond torch and his passive fortification of friendly specials 

He only fortifies Repeaters (+ a Strike), Magic fortifies SAP, Goblin Fortifies CD

ThaRoadWarrior

purplemur said:

blankcanvas said:

I would also try her with Hammond torch and his passive fortification of friendly specials 

He only fortifies Repeaters (+ a Strike), Magic fortifies SAP, Goblin Fortifies CD

I forgot about Torch and Magik; those seem to be decent ways to kickstart Shuri

RickOShay

Vhailorx said:

Disagree RickOShay,

I definitely agree with most of what you wrote. And I've been wondering if her blue has the either/or for AP as you've described. 

The one thing you could be more careful about, is that WE typically represent only 10% of the player base (or even top 5% of competitive play. Whatever the small number actually is. 
Characters like this are needed for the average / general player who may greatly appreciate ways to save on health packs as they plow through mid level CL PvE to basic progression. 
These players are very important to the health of the game and in turn to us for sustainability. Even low Protect tiles may have a similar effect for what many of us relied upon from easy-heal characters for a very long time in 3* land and beyond (Daken, Patch etc.).

We often want a new 4* character to be a Top Tier solution, but that often puts them too close to Broken, so the design balance is a tricky thing to manage. Chavez is a good example of getting this right. Definitely good enough to be played with 5* teams, but not completely disruptive in PvP etc. 
Players who started even 1 year ago probably don't have a playable C4rol, Grocket, or even Nico for that matter, but probably do have a Magik or 4orch etc.

So, yes fair points completely. But I want the average reader to be able to take away what they need from the forums, not to simply see our narrowly viewed negative claims and run away.

ThaRoadWarrior

I always struggle to evaluate new releases in the context of a 4* transitioner with mostly comparably leveled partners for them. If it isn't somebody playing AP games or making crits, or otherwise doing things to "play up," they often feel "useless." But in their own context they can be really helpful. Kraven can be like this, as can Dazzler - if she'd come with a jump-in-front she'd have ruined the Gritty meta I think, but since she can't tank over established characters very easily, she is of limited utility (unless Juggernaut is in play on the enemy team).

TPF Alexis

RickOShay said:

I am often guilty of comparing these 'low' starting values to my level 300 - 330+ characters, which isn't actually fair.

I've been trying to work on this as well, since someone pointed out that a couple of 3* I wrote off because they came out after I hit 4* land were actually doing really well for them, since they were among that player's highest level characters, so stuff like Captain Marv3l or Vision* needing to tank actually worked for them.

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I always struggle to evaluate new releases in the context of a 4* transitioner with mostly comparably leveled partners for them. If it isn't somebody playing AP games or making crits, or otherwise doing things to "play up," they often feel "useless." But in their own context they can be really helpful. Kraven can be like this, as can Dazzler - if she'd come with a jump-in-front she'd have ruined the Gritty meta I think, but since she can't tank over established characters very easily, she is of limited utility (unless Juggernaut is in play on the enemy team).

Yep, context is a big deal. I find it sometimes helps to go over to the wiki and look at what other characters do at 270 instead of the 300+ where I have them. But even then, it's not the same as getting to play them with a roster that's still at that point.

*Those weren't actually the characters in question. I can't remember who they were. 3*Lord and 3lektra, maybe.

Vhailorx

RickOShay,

I can claim no special knowledge of the current state of the game for 3* players and 4* transitioners.  And I definitely think there are some characters that feel extraneous for 5* players, but are quite good for transitioners (and the other way 'round too.  Worthy and bishop aren't nearly as big a deal for 4* players.  They only take off when match damage can proc them).

But I do try my best evaluate new characters both for my own likely experience, and also from my best estimate of a newer player perspective.

And fwiw, I don't think Karolina has much value even for new players.  Her powers are cheap, but they are also weak and require a fair amount of careful, slow tending to optimize, so I don't think she will play as fast as she looks.  She alsjo doesn't really have a unique tool to add to the toolkit (like dazzler or kraven).  Boosted burst healing is mostly useless.  If she can also boost true healing effects, she might be useful as a 3rd to make true healing tanks more reliable.  But that is extremely niche, as one is generally just better off with a battery to fuel the true heal and/or quick offense to end the match faster. 

If the news is bad, I want people on the forums to get an honest appraisal of that bad news.  And Karolina seems weak to me, and the 4* tier seems overcrowded, which makes mediocre characters look even worse as they are just dilution/bloat.  Furthemore, since there is no more latest weighting, I can't imagine suggesting to any new player that they target karolina over a whole host of superior 4*s.  The opportunity cost of chasing her is quite high relative to her modest utility.

(Disclaimer: I am also on record here (for years) being super high on the value of true healing.  That's why I have spent a lot of time on the forums arguing that GED is almost as good as JJ.  I have relied heavily on a long string of true healing teams (from a 1/1/5 patch as my main tank back in 2014, through to x23 to thorkoye) to conserve my own health packs. If the goal is sustainable play, I will take true heal over protect tiles all day long.)

Heartbreaksoup

Looks like yet another in a long line of 4*s that I'll only use when she's required.  With stats this low, this character should have been a 3*.

Anon

Wow she seems...very not good.

Kingart813

Seems like the train of amazing 4* character releases have hit the brakes.  I've never even heard of this character...

bluewolf

WEBGAS said:

Release Debut:

Venom Bomb - December 21, 2019 - December 26, 2019

• Karolina Dean (Runaways) In placement rewards

S.H.I.E.L.D. Training - December 19, 2019 - December 26, 2019

• Rewards tokens to Venom Bomb, random cover of Karolina Dean (Runaways), and more

Featured Event:

Unstable Iso-8 - December 23, 2019 - December 27, 2019

• Karolina Dean (Runaways) as a progression reward
• Rewards tokens to the Karolina Dean & Friends vault

SOMETHING IS WRONG with these release dates ; usually the PVE event starts the same day of Shield training so Venom Bomb should be running dec. 19 - dec 23..... am I wrong?

The Sneak Peek thread lists VB as starting 12/19, so that's going to be the day it starts.  There have been very few Thursdays that didn't see the start of a new PVE (I think one 7 day went Sunday - Sunday a couple years ago).

jp1

I like the idea of well rounded teams. Heavy offense from one toon, heavy defense from another, possibly niche complimentary powers from the third. It’s an interesting concept. 

The defense side of things needs a heavy boost though or it isn’t really worthwhile. I agree that knowing she would be paired with Nico the color overlap was a pretty lame oversight as well.

Its a shame when missed opportunities to create some real synergy where it belongs happen like this. It could make for a really fun aspect of gameplay.

RickOShay

Looked back at a few other base-Champion characters with green AoE's for comparison. 
Blade:  9 for  2636 AoE and potential to heal him, 293 per AP
Jubilee: 9 for 2416 AoE and convert enemy specials to charged tiles, 268 per AP
Quake: 11 for 4401 AoE and board shuffle, 400 per AP

Karolina: 8 for 2612 AoE and potential for team heal, 327 per AP

There's more to compare, and even non-green AoE's to review to as well.
I too would like Karolina's numbers to be higher to have a higher chance at relevancy. But I have to admit at least her green ability isn't that bad.
She will be chosen depending on how the specific player values Protect tiles and a cheap AoE. Especially if the conversion of protects to strikes is easier/faster than we're thinking. 
In fairness I don't think she will be picked often by 5* players, but I can see her being useful with Gritty for example. Easy protect tiles to buff and save on health packs, and cheaper green than Grocket for quick team damage. 

The color overlap with Nico seemed unfortunate at first, but how often do we choose a character for just two of their abilities? I do a Lot. Nico for yellow and purple, Karolina for blue and green, and a red-black to round them out. I'm thinking Sabretooth, Modok, or Wolfsbane for newer characters would work fine to quite well. 
Or naturally in 3* essential PvP where that character has a decent red-black combo.

ThaRoadWarrior

I'd like to see it in practice; on paper, Shuri/P4nther suffers from the exact same 2:3 overlap, but in practice that team is murder if you can jumpstart either one of them.

Vhailorx

RichOShay:

Synergy definitely trumps color overlap (e.g., im40 + lady Thor).  So I would not be concerned with the color issue if Nico + Karolina looked to be useful.

Re: the green aoe.  Yeah, it's pretty average for a 4*.  Not the best, and not the worst.  But I would note that all of the green powers you listed are either on weaker characters (jubilee, or ghost rider or sandman whom you didn't list), or secondary powers on characters that are useful for other reasons (blade is still basically 4* meta because of good red, and quake is a useful board control/support).  Karolina's green is not the problem with her.  But if you could run Karolina for her green aoe, or blade for his green aoe, which would you pick?  If the answer isn't blade, then you are just not interested in winning MPQ matches (which is fine, sometimes playing around with suboptimal teams is fun.  But it's also very subjective, and therefore hard to use as a rating criterium).

As for running Karolina with gritty, fine, there is some synergy.  But it's gritty.  Literally anyone in the 3rd slot is fine.  And there are dozens of better options than Karolina.  She's just another weak character in a tier that already has 3 or 4 dozen weak characters.  She has basically no function in this game.  Even decent new 4*s like Ronin, black cat, or modok are borderline useless at this point, and karolina is a clear step or two below them IMO.  Don't overthink this and dig super deep to find a niche team where she can work.  4* tier is dead.  Demi needs to recognize this.

purplemur

RickOShay said:
Players who started even 1 year ago probably don't have a playable C4rol, Grocket, or even Nico for that matter, but probably do have a Magik or 4orch etc.

So, yes fair points completely. But I want the average reader to be able to take away what they need from the forums, not to simply see our narrowly viewed negative claims and run away.

You bring up a very crucial rebuke in how the assessments tend to be only for 5* players. And I agree we need to be cognizant of perception from new players reading our snarky takes. 
But don't they deserve some real talk? Does it do any good to paint an overly rosy and exaggerated optimism for a character - they have 100 to choose from. Would you seriously recommend to a one year player that KD is worth chasing? Even compared to the ones in just the last year? (I also dispute that a one year player is even able to have many champed, dilution is so bad outside of release and 2 follow-ups they have a sub 1% chance of getting a particular character).
If you do maintain they need her for the healing (daken/patch/kk/strange), seems like they would want Yellow at 5 since that is her "thing". Does an unwieldy blue that only switches 3 tiles, and a middling green AoE seem better than actually making the team synergy work and have the healing be a useful utility? I don't get why this ability is being overlooked, if there is any impact on the meta it will be with her passive healing buff. And if we assume they give us another Runaway Affiliation then 9 Protects(3 base +2 per) for 6Ap is really good spam rate.

Your Green AoE review: yes she is "comparable", I found it a lil cherry-picking in order to prove the point that it's not a terrible rate. Did you find anyone with better rate that would have been a good tip for those same new players (see wiccan)?
3* Thor is almost equivalent and would be a fair comp since any transitioner will be upgrading from him (see also KK) Wiccan,Moonknight/GwenP, Big Pun, GR etc all have solid options for big green that you might choose them on a boosted week just for that one skill. In fact I think Green has the most AoE powers? So to say this is a "good" green is, well, over selling it a bit. Even the Devs in the sneak peak said low damage skill with burst heal. The consideration is: a hit that wounds or save up for a finisher. Different tools for different needs. Your post makes it seem like this is the second best AoE behind Quake.

RickoShay: I really appreciate your effort to infuse some positivity and raise the level of discussion. Even though I quibble with some of your points I respect your thoughtful views for everyone not just where you happen to find yourself in the game. The newbs need an advocate on the forum and I support you giving them some attention/help.

ThaRoadWarrior

This character goes airborne on Blue, Black Cat does it on Purple, and Vulture does it on Black, so you could have a fairly annoying team on your hands with the whole thing airborne. Not that that is especially scary, but i think it would be something I'd challenge myself to do lol.