New Feature in R191: Shards

Daredevil217

tiomono said:

Players concerned about "wasting" shards on uneven numbers might have a solution already in place.

Wouldnt selecting more than one character as your target divide out the shards making it easier to hit the exact point you want on a certain character with no waste?

If it works that way. 

@IceIX  If I have three characters targeted in a tier and get 3 shards for that tier, does a random character get all three shards, or does each character get one shard?

My guess is it is the former and not the latter. 

grenadier

Seems to me that with people complaining about dilution and slow progression, you should either leave BH in the game, in addition to the shards, or increase the number of shards dramatically to speed things up a bit.  Slowing down progress is not a net-positive move.  Even if other shards are added later, it seems that this is going to turn our collections into a couple of hundred proverbial "watched pots," that only rarely if ever come to a boil.

Daredevil217

Dogface said:

Therealsmkspy said:

At @IceIX,

I just have to ask, why the decision to make shards character specific? The community already has found the fault it compared to how BHs worked, so why make a system that gives less flexibility than the system already in place?

I guess 'targeted' says it

BH can’t be monetized. They were an “extra” we got to target specific characters and combat dilution.

This can be monetized and much more so with character specific shard than if it was a new currency to be applied anywhere. The honest answer to most questions we have is “money”. They found a way to monetize BH and are marketing it as a step forward. Dilution is still an issue and I will mark it as such the next time we are given one of those satisfaction surveys. 

AWorthyChap

HoundofShadow said:

I think I need to qualify what I meant by perfect BH system. It means using in-game data of BH rate theoretically and compare it against the new feature. While there are players whose BH rates have beaten the odds based on their tracking records, there are also players with poor BH rates that falls below the average rate.

In the past, players asked for colourless covers. Today, they've gotten it.
Now, players are asking for characterless covers. They might get it somewhere in the future.
What does the future after that future hold? 

But WHY did players ask for colorless covers?  Because pulling a 6th cover of the same color was wasted.  Adding the ability to save covers removed that waste.....and also the vast majority of the requests for colorless covers.

Targeted Heroes solves a very temporary problem while significantly reducing covers in the long term.

Godzillafan67

To hoard, or not to hoard, that is the question:
If the colour of the cover does not matter,
Then the enhanced draw rate of bonus heroes
Would suit you well. Thus you should release
Your tokens with utmost haste for utmost delight!
Yet, if your hero, though villain they may really be,
Wallows in more covers than can be applied,
Then perhaps the slightly lower but guaranteed colourless covers
Of the targeted heroes system is a worthy wait.

Bryan Lambert

Therealsmkspy said:

Bryan Lambert said:

Thinking about this - the best strategic move for developed 5* players is to pull latest tokens and target classics, or target latest and pull classics, depending on what you need. Since the pools are completely separate (only place in the game where this is true) you’ll never pull a 5* you’re collecting shards on, so no wasted shards. 

So yeah, I figure I’ll be going after latests the same way I always have, and targeting specific 5* covers I need to finish champing my backlogged 5’s in order of either closeness (for the sense of achievement) or usefulness (my Hawkeye is woefully undercovered for the current meta).

You'll still have wasted shards for 4*s if you're not hoarding. The flexibility of strategic roster building is dead with this system.

Well yeah but that’s why I said “for developed 5* players”. In that tier, the goal for 90% of 4* releases isn’t to champ them quickly, but to just get them to 209 in case the next 4* (depending on how Shield training goes) affects the 5* meta. Also, the number of shards (measued in pulls) you waste on a 4* character is -significantly- smaller than the same for a 5.

Therealsmkspy

You're throwing out the 90% fallacy here.

The 4* tier for established 5* players (which is a huge blanket statement in itself) is not just about getting a new character to 209 though. Imo, I would wager that the strategic aspect of BHing 4s based on building up 5s is more important than getting one cover for the newest 4* release.

 In my case, one 4* new release cover is worth less than a BH 4* that gives me an LT or CP. 

The fact is that the ability to apply this new BH method to 3s and 4s destroys the current method given that new system promotes hoarding more than ever before.

Flexibility that BHs provides appears all but dead with this new system given it is so character specific.

Warbringa

Daredevil217 said:

Dogface said:

Therealsmkspy said:

At @IceIX,

I just have to ask, why the decision to make shards character specific? The community already has found the fault it compared to how BHs worked, so why make a system that gives less flexibility than the system already in place?

I guess 'targeted' says it

BH can’t be monetized. They were an “extra” we got to target specific characters and combat dilution.

This can be monetized and much more so with character specific shard than if it was a new currency to be applied anywhere. The honest answer to most questions we have is “money”. They found a way to monetize BH and are marketing it as a step forward. Dilution is still an issue and I will mark it as such the next time we are given one of those satisfaction surveys. 

I agree with Daredevil here in that the new feature may not end up helping as much against dilution as the devs are touting.  I am not against monetization as it is what keeps the game running, but only if it is optional (don't know enough details yet to know how optional this will be).  The danger here is that if shards from other sources are stingy compared to what you can buy with HP, it may be a negative for much of the player base.  Personally, I usually have excess HP so for me, maybe not an issue but for many players, newer ones especially, HP is in relative low supply given roster needs.  I think targeting/shards may be a net positive for the majority of the player base especially for 5* covers however, with the removal of bonus heroes, it doesn't feel as if most players will see a dramatic progress in the issues of dilution.  It almost feels as if this feature along with bonus heroes was implemented, that would have been a great possible solution.  Unless the amount of shards through other sources is significantly higher than any of us expect, is the caveat to this comment. 

Two other benefits, mainly for the devs, of this new system is that many players will be satisfied "seeing" their progress towards BH.  It is a psychological benefit that much of the player base will like, even if in some ways it may not be better (or worse) than the current system.  Secondly, shards is a popular format in other mobile games and a familiar mechanic.  Perhaps they feel it will draw players who like/are experienced with it towards the game too.

Bryan Lambert

Therealsmkspy said:

You're throwing out the 90% fallacy here.

The 4* tier for established 5* players (which is a huge blanket statement in itself) is not just about getting a new character to 209 though. Imo, I would wager that the strategic aspect of BHing 4s based on building up 5s is more important than getting one cover for the newest 4* release.

 In my case, one 4* new release cover is worth less than a BH 4* that gives me an LT or CP. 

The fact is that the ability to apply this new BH method to 3s and 4s destroys the current method given that new system promotes hoarding more than ever before.

Flexibility that BHs provides appears all but dead with this new system given it is so character specific.

For the record, none of this is an argument for why this new system is better - it’s not. It’s just thinking about how to make the best of the new system, because the odds of anybody’s helpful suggestions changing things is way, way less than the odds of a Bonus Hero.

ThaRoadWarrior

Daredevil217 said:

tiomono said:

Players concerned about "wasting" shards on uneven numbers might have a solution already in place.

Wouldnt selecting more than one character as your target divide out the shards making it easier to hit the exact point you want on a certain character with no waste?

If it works that way. 

@IceIX  If I have three characters targeted in a tier and get 3 shards for that tier, does a random character get all three shards, or does each character get one shard?

My guess is it is the former and not the latter. 

Back in Post 1, it says that shards gained from 1x or 10x pulls all goes to one of your favorited characters, but the 40x will be divied up amongst all your favorites in chunks:

"When a player pulls from a pack, they gain a specific number of Bonus Shards (see table below) towards a cover for any heroes they have favorited. These Bonus Shards are gained regardless of what is pulled from the pack; standard tokens will give 6x 3-star Bonus Shards whether a 1-star, 2-star, or 3-star is pulled. For smaller pulls like the 1x or 10x pulls, these Shards will be gained for a single Favorited Hero in the given rarity. For 40x pulls you’ll receive batches of Shards spread across multiple characters in that rarity. If you have only one character in a rarity in a 40x pull, all Shards will apply to that one character."

bickle

IceIX said:

Those Shards stick around for Championing the character, or for creating a new copy if that's the way you want to go.

In one sentence this changed from a highly desired feature to highly dreaded. If you are a highly active player that generates a lot of shards it won’t be as bad. But if you generate them slower, it will be just demoralizing to find out that 300 shards are stuck on a character you no longer want to pursue. 

IceIX

ThaRoadWarrior said:

@IceIX
any chance that Shards will get factored into the daily resupply chain in the in between times where there is currently trivial nothing rewards?

I don't have a specific answer for that, but pretty much every part of the game is getting looked at as part of the reward schedule, so it's not a bad assumption.

DAZ0273 said:

There is also the elephant in the room on this - there was mention of changes to Champion rewards due to Shards implementation, the question then becomes would these be additions to existing rewards or in replacement of?

I don't have final numbers or rewards schedules on this yet, so anything I say in-depth would be premature. We're not adding any new tiers to Champion Rewards (you get something every level as it is), so rewards have to come from *somewhere*. But from the WIP I've been looking at it's a net positive for how the vast majority of players build their rosters while Championing.

DeNappa said:

All those fancy calculations here, but those still don't address the issue that essentially your shards are wasted once you pull the 13nd cover for a character. Yes, once you fill up the shards bar for the character they can still be used for a champion level, but I don't think anybody is going to leave their 'finished' characters set as bonus hero unless they have finished them all. Making them essentially going to waste.

I liked the idea that somebody mentioned in this thread (sorry cba to look for the specific post): shards should go into a general pool so you can spend them on any character of that tier, but limit the application of Shard rank ups by 1 or 2 per week.

@IceIX any feedback on wasted shards in the new system?

Actually, a *ton* of players keep characters fav'd past Championing them to gain additional Champion levels specifically to farm rewards. Another batch keep Champed characters up there to get them max champed. For example, the number of players with Thanos and Dr. Strange favorited at the 3-star tier after Championing them is huge, despite "needing" covers for another character. This scales up to players Champing Grocket, C4rol, Juggs, Chavez, etc. at the 4-star tier. So, yes, given that people are using the Bonus Hero system for exactly that, it's very likely that they'll continue to use Shards for exactly the same thing.

The idea of some kind of Wildcard Shard isn't a bad one. As pointed out in the thread elsewhere though, it also comes with some balancing downsides, some of which could be alleviated with usage restrictions, sure. It's something to keep in mind, and an example of valuable feedback that's come from this thread.

As for the above "wasted" Shards thought, as stated above, this doesn't match with player play experience in the majority of situations. Players want to keep building characters past Champion for a number of reasons. And for those players that like keeping their characters evenly leveled, those Shards never go away, so they're never really wasted.

Therealsmkspy

Bryan Lambert said:

Therealsmkspy said:

You're throwing out the 90% fallacy here.

The 4* tier for established 5* players (which is a huge blanket statement in itself) is not just about getting a new character to 209 though. Imo, I would wager that the strategic aspect of BHing 4s based on building up 5s is more important than getting one cover for the newest 4* release.

 In my case, one 4* new release cover is worth less than a BH 4* that gives me an LT or CP. 

The fact is that the ability to apply this new BH method to 3s and 4s destroys the current method given that new system promotes hoarding more than ever before.

Flexibility that BHs provides appears all but dead with this new system given it is so character specific.

For the record, none of this is an argument for why this new system is better - it’s not. It’s just thinking about how to make the best of the new system, because the odds of anybody’s helpful suggestions changing things is way, way less than the odds of a Bonus Hero.

100% agree with you, sadly for me, I can't think of anything that would benefit me (in my particular case alone) other than targeting 5s that can't be completed thru feeders like my 1/6/0 BP with his feeder at 302. 

Even then, no way I'll shard the feeder and sharding 5*BP will still be as useless as BHing him. Only advantage will be a colorless cover, which devs would have easily fixed by just making covers colorless. But that doesn't fuel micro transactions, shrug.

IceIX

pheregas said:

@IceIX

Thank you for the information.  I have a few targeted questions (pun intended) regarding the features you've given us info on.  I'll bold the questions for easy scanning.

What happens if a hero doesn't have a targeted selection?  Do those points just disappear?
<SNIP>

Can a 4* character be targeted even if they are not in Tokens?
<SNIP>

Why is the target payout for a Classic Token the same as a Latest Token?  
<SNIP>

5* FEEDERS NEED TO BE ESTABLISHED NOW!
<SNIP>

Will changes in SHIELD Rank or Champ Rewards be retroactive?
<SNIP>

Thanks for your time and any info you can provide regarding these questions that don't seem to be addressed in your original post nor in subsequent comments/questions.

Snipped for brevity, but:

Random Shards via no fav'd characters - It will work the same as BHs work in that if you have no one selected it will be given out randomly.

4-star targeting - Targeting rules do not change from the current system. So Limited or new characters cannot be favorited or targeted, just as they can't be now.

Payouts for Latest Legends versus Classic Legends - This is intentional, since players pushing for more 4-stars in-game right now are also the ones pulling Classics much more often. However, if LTs are markedly better for 5-star rewards in comparison, they'd be pressed towards prioritizing very long term rewards over getting and keeping their roster competitive in the short/mid term. It's something we're specifically looking at monitoring once the feature goes Live to make sure that players within each gameplay bin are getting rewarded with what they need to succeed.

Feeders - As stated before (I know, lots of posts to go through), Champ Rewards and by association, feeders are on the relatively short term docket to update.

Retroactive Rewards - We've done these where appropriate before (like with nearly every feeder change), so depending on the system being changed or updated, this is certainly on the table.

tonypq

It would be nice if they reduce the amount of 2* covers in vaults and replace a lot with shards. Vaults are kind of meh to bother with in most cases, being able to get a decent number of shard would make vaults more enticing. 

An option to sell duplicate covers for shards instead of ISO would be great as well. 

Warbringa

So obviously one of the two major drawbacks is that once a character gets shards, that decision is set. 

Could this issue be solved (ahem with monetization in mind of course), is if anyone makes a purchase (ie the shield intercept purchase), you can reallocate one characters shards into another character within the same tier?  I suppose if they want to be real monetizing it could be tied to VIP, but I think that would draw anger too.  The $1.99/mo. HP buy would be reasonable and this addition to the monthly purchase intercepts rewards would perhaps make a few more players consider dropping at least a minimal amount of money.  If you bought the $1.99 HP deal once a month that is 12 character shard transfers on a regular annual basis. You of course, could buy it whenever you wanted (with the limitation of only one exchange each 30 days based on the current reward structure).  

firethorne

So, 5* bonuses are going from a random 1 in 20 to a fixed 1 in 166.... or direct buy with premium currency.

Perhaps slightly better with undisclosed rewards, but to get to an equal rate, you'd have to assume these be very generous.  Past experience has taught me to not expect them to be generous.  

As I predicted, this system just sounds different, but not better.

Warbringa

firethorne said:

So, 5* bonuses are going from a random 1 in 20 to a fixed 1 in 166.... or direct buy with premium currency.

Perhaps slightly better with undisclosed rewards, but to get to an equal rate, you'd have to assume these be very generous.  Past experience has taught me to not expect them to be generous.  

As I predicted, this system just sounds different, but not better.

To be fair you should state a random 1 in 140 to a fixed 1 in 166. 

The difference, statistically, is about 26 draws which means you would need to earn 78 5* shards in equivalence through other means reliably to equal the current 5* draw rate (26 pulls x 3 5* shards = 78 shards).  Now we do get the benefit of picking which cover which has significant value in the 5* cover use, probably less so in 3 or 4 tiers. 

So here is the thing, how long does it take you to accumulate 166 5* token draws?  That answer will vary by player of course but the question you should ask is can I reliably accrue 78 5* shards from non-token sources over that time frame?  How much of those 78 5* shards are they expecting me to buy from HP and is that possible given my HP income/generation etc?

The additional "cost" is that it may take you longer to get those additional 26 draws (depending on your ability to get those extra 78 shards in equivalence) but that cost is balanced out imo based on no longer having to worry about cover color of the bonus hero and taking RNG streaks out of the equation.  

For whales, which are a significant source of income for this game, I would think this system is better.  You can buy 30 shards for a random 5* per day, for HP, a resource that can be earned in surplus by whale rosters and can be directly purchased (buy clubs), a feature whales will like.  In theory, if you are willing to spend the money, you could pay to make your bonus rate actually increase compared to the old system.  It does seem like RNG will still be a factor though based on who and how often a 5* you want to purchase shows up in your daily stores.  Can't give up RNG completely

Daily store characters will eventually be the next complaint we see.  I haven't seen a Jessica Jones shard option for X amount of months etc. 

Chrynos1989

@IceIX

This might have been asked before, but I’m too lazy to read through 11 pages of comments, it’s 11pm where I live and I’m a jerk, but could you please tell me (and all the other guys), will shards only come from classic and latest legendary stores or also from special 5* stores and release stores?

AWorthyChap

IceIX said:

Actually, a *ton* of players keep characters fav'd past Championing them to gain additional Champion levels specifically to farm rewards. Another batch keep Champed characters up there to get them max champed. For example, the number of players with Thanos and Dr. Strange favorited at the 3-star tier after Championing them is huge, despite "needing" covers for another character. This scales up to players Champing Grocket, C4rol, Juggs, Chavez, etc. at the 4-star tier. So, yes, given that people are using the Bonus Hero system for exactly that, it's very likely that they'll continue to use Shards for exactly the same thing.

The idea of some kind of Wildcard Shard isn't a bad one. As pointed out in the thread elsewhere though, it also comes with some balancing downsides, some of which could be alleviated with usage restrictions, sure. It's something to keep in mind, and an example of valuable feedback that's come from this thread.

As for the above "wasted" Shards thought, as stated above, this doesn't match with player play experience in the majority of situations. Players want to keep building characters past Champion for a number of reasons. And for those players that like keeping their characters evenly leveled, those Shards never go away, so they're never really wasted.

But this system is worse for that "ton" of players who don't care what color cover they earn for a champed character and in the long run will earn fewer targeted covers compared to the bonus system.  And the pool of players not in that group now have a new "wasted shards" problem to try to overcome.

I just don't understand why you think it's a good idea to give fewer covers to player in the long run when in the long run no one cares what color the cover is that they use for the next champ level.  Why not just make it 400 shards for a 5* to at least maintain the same growth rate that exists today?  Or better yet - just scrap this whole poorly thought out shards idea entirely.

You realize that in order to turn this around you are going to have to give out tons of shards in progression/placement rewards.