*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Phaserhawk

This is my Spidey fix after much deliberation.

Spider-Man (Classic)
3 Star Rarity (Rare) Discussion link. Wiki link.
At Max Level: HP: 8670 Tile damage: 79/13/61/70/12/11/3.0
Electro Webbing - Yellow 6
Spider-Man uses specialized shooters to damage target enemy for 142 and creates a blue web tile. If 3 or more Web tiles exist he converts them to damage, shocking his foe for an additional 149.
Level 2: Increases base damage to 199.
Level 3: Increases base damage to 256.
Level 4: Increases base damage to 312.
Level 5: Increases base damage to 369.
Max level 141 5/5: for 2314 with an additional 934 with 3 Web tiles.All

Tied Up - Blue 5
Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds a Yellow Web tile to the board.
Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 3 Web tiles exist
Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist
Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tile exists
Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 1 or 2 Web tiles exist.

Spider-Sense - Purple PASSIVE
Spider-Man's senses tingle and he moves to protect his team. If there aren't any friendly Purple Protect tiles, he creates one when his team matches Purple tiles in addition to creating a random blue or yellow web tile. New Protect tile Strength is based on the number of Web tiles in play. If 5 or more web tiles are on the board Spidey will make web slings to heal his allies for 142
Level 2: Creates up to 2 Purple Protect tiles.Increases base healing to 199
Level 3: Increases base Protect Strength by 25%. Increases base healing to 256.
Level 4: Creates up to 3 Purple Protect tiles. Increases base healing to 312.
Level 5: Increases base Protect Strength by 25%. Increases base healing to 369
Max Level 141 5/5: 104/133/163/193 Protect tiles depending on Web tiles on board. Max level 141 5/5: Heals for 2314 with an additional 934 with 5 Web tiles.

The numbers would need to be tweaked, but essentially you have to do a balancing act with Spidey which is very well within an agile character. You need to hold off using yellow if you need to team heal, but that will consume all your webtiles thus reducing your stun and damage. Purple also gets you webs, but if you get a 5th by matching purple you would heal, then make a very weak shield. But Spidey should be firing out web tiles to no end, he swings left and right, that's his flavor. If you are going to use web tiles as a mechanic then every skill needs to make web tiles not just one. That is the problem with Spidey, web tiles. It's a very cool mechanic and perfect for the flavor, but he does not pump them out as need be. He needs to pump out Gamora type damage, Heal for a decent amount but be able to lock foes up, this guy would be balanced but strong. The AI would play him terribly.

Unknown

That's true, but fixing up a character isn't completely unheard of, also, I just thought of the way around it: 4* Iron-Spider.

Unknown

Phaserhawk's revision seems fine in general. Personally I don't think it hits the base nature of the character too well though. Especially the part where Spider-Man commonly uses electro webbing. But I wouldn't mind it if Spider-Man was changed to that.

Some different ideas came to my mind though. I always felt the base nature of Spider-Man as a fighter was to mainly stalemate his opponents with amazing agility and sticky webs and heightened healing factor to absorb blows until his unending nagging and wisecracks pushed villains into overcommitting into a fatal mistake or finally convinced misunderstood monsters to surrender or finally scientifically uncovers the key clue to resolving a problem. He fights defensively intending to outlast wars of attrition. Personally I think I'd want a revision of Spider-Man to go more in this direction:

Yellow: Keep Them Off-Balance
Cost 13 AP
Add a blue web tile to the board. (Passive) when an opponent activates a power, delay that power by 0 turns + 1 turn for each 2 web tiles on the board. (This affects opponent's passive powers as well.) If the power does not create a countdown tile naturally, convert a basic tile of that power's color at random to a countdown tile. If a countdown tile cannot be created, instead do not delay the power.
- at higher levels: reduce AP cost, add a second web tile, base value on turns delayed is 1 instead of 0.

Blue: All Tied Up
Cost 5 AP
Add a yellow web tile to the board. Then stun the current target for 1 turn.
- at higher levels: add a second web tile, add additional turns of stun based on web tiles.

Purple: Spidey-Sense
(Passive) At the beginning of your turn, if there is at least one enemy special tile and one friendly web tile on the board, convert one of each at random to basic tiles. If not, Spider-Man heals 2% of his health instead (true heal like Wolvie, not burst heal).
- at higher levels: additional enemy tile converted, convert tiles to shield tiles instead of basic tiles, 3% heal, converted tiles damage the opponents (similar to Daredevil's Radar Sense)

Health - average
Match damage strength - high (proportionally high strength of a spider)
Out-of-combat healing factor - high (a step down from Wolvie/Daken levels)


To me that feels more like the Spider-Man I've grown up with. But there are lots of ways to go with him. These are just some ideas.

Malcrof

herbal wrote:

Yellow: Keep Them Off-Balance
Cost 13 AP
Add a blue web tile to the board. (Passive) when an opponent activates a power, and if there is a basic tile of that power's color on the board, instead convert a random tile of that color into a countdown tile with base value 0 (or base value of whatever countdown value is natural for the power) then add 1 to that value for every 2 web tiles on the board. The power has to wait to activate until the countdown expires. (This affects opponent's passive powers as well.)
- at higher levels: reduce AP cost, add a second web tile, initial base value on new countdown tiles is 1.

13ap for what?

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

herbal wrote:

Yellow: Keep Them Off-Balance
Cost 13 AP
Add a blue web tile to the board. (Passive) when an opponent activates a power, and if there is a basic tile of that power's color on the board, instead convert a random tile of that color into a countdown tile with base value 0 (or base value of whatever countdown value is natural for the power) then add 1 to that value for every 2 web tiles on the board. The power has to wait to activate until the countdown expires. (This affects opponent's passive powers as well.)
- at higher levels: reduce AP cost, add a second web tile, initial base value on new countdown tiles is 1.

13ap for what?

12ap is what the current yellow power costs. So I just kept in that range to start. It doesn't have to cost that. Higher levels could reduce ap, or do a Quicksilver thing and naturally reduce ap for number of web tiles on the board. My idea wants to keep the active part of the yellow power for adding blue web tiles to the board. I'd agree that focusing his overall design on web tile interactions needs to have more than just his blue power generating them. Lots of room for tweaking numbers still.

Malcrof

herbal wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

herbal wrote:

Yellow: Keep Them Off-Balance
Cost 13 AP
Add a blue web tile to the board. (Passive) when an opponent activates a power, and if there is a basic tile of that power's color on the board, instead convert a random tile of that color into a countdown tile with base value 0 (or base value of whatever countdown value is natural for the power) then add 1 to that value for every 2 web tiles on the board. The power has to wait to activate until the countdown expires. (This affects opponent's passive powers as well.)
- at higher levels: reduce AP cost, add a second web tile, initial base value on new countdown tiles is 1.

13ap for what?

12ap is what the current yellow power costs. So I just kept in that range to start. It doesn't have to cost that. Higher levels could reduce ap, or do a Quicksilver thing and naturally reduce ap for number of web tiles on the board. My idea wants to keep the active part of the yellow power for adding blue web tiles to the board. I'd agree that focusing his overall design on web tile interactions needs to have more than just his blue power generating them. Lots of room for tweaking numbers still.

Think you missed my question.. all that AP and he is still doing pretty much nothing. Yellow is his worst color, unless it is a long wave, most would rather use yellow ap on a Thunderstrike, Battleplan, or Righteous Uppercut, then a bad non true heal.

Your description adds a passive that puts web tiles on the board, great.. now other then exploiting this with Venom team ups to 1 shot people, what is the real use?

Unknown

So, it's 13 Ap, to put a blue tile on the board? O.o

Is the passive attached to having the blue tile on the board, ala Vision's density moves or Dooms traps? No offense, it's kind of poorly worded, and also OP as all get out and would likely play havoc with the code.

I still maintain it's an easy fix. Give his yellow an ability that does damage based on number of protect tiles in play, depending on amount of webtiles in play. Keep the heal, adjust the value if needed. It represents Spidey's counter attack based style, in my opinion.

PuceMoose

It's fun to think about ways to rework Spiderman's yellow power. I think his blue and purple are pretty useful; it's his yellow that is bad enough that it casts a pallor on the entire character. What if we gave him a super-fast damage attack similar to Gamora (to indicate his super-fast spider speed and reflexes), but amped up since it eats your own tiles?

Web Sling - Yellow 6
Spider-Man surprises his enemy, slinging a protective barricade when least expected at his startled foe. Destroys one selected friendly protect tile and deals 291 damage + the strength of the destroyed protect tile to the targeted enemy. This skill cannot be used unless at least one friendly protect tile exists.
Level 2: Increases base damage to 350.
Level 3: Increases base healing to 407.
Level 4: Increases base healing to 523.
Level 5: Increases base healing to 757.
Max level 166 5/5: base damage of 2406.

Nightmare pairing with Falcon!

Kolence

Please buff Spidey. Let's try one more time.

5 AP.
Does damage to the target and makes a blue Web tile if there are fewer than 3 (just blue ones). If the target is stunned, deal extra damage. If not, increase target's ability costs by ?? AP (increase the cost more based on Web tiles at higher covers) until their team makes a tile match move while they are not stunned.

5 AP.
Stuns the target for 2 turns and makes a yellow Web tile if there are fewer than 3 (just yellow ones). If there are 2+ Web tiles in play, stun for an extra turn.

Purple can stay as it is really, but I'd like to see his spider sense work similar to Elektra's black avoid hit.

:purpleflag: 0 AP (PASSIVE)
Each time Spidey is hit, he recieves a burst of ?? health plus ?? more for each Web tile in play. If a hit would KO him and there are 3+ Web tiles in play, he instead avoids any damage and consumes 3 Web tiles.

falsep77

Intro and thoughts in spoilers.

I've been sitting on this idea for a minute. I've just been.... admittedly too lazy to type up the idea.

And I also figured that since 1* Spidey just showed up, I better get this out before they revamp 3*.

Basically, the biggest (IMHO) problem with 3* spidey is..... he's not very spidey-like. His blue is a perfect power for him. Wouldn't change it for the world.

"Web-Bandages"? Shield tiles!? come on, now!

Spidey is first and foremost (okay, behind him being a smart-****) highly offense orientated, team wrecking monster. He practically came out the gate singlehandedly wrecking and embarrassing the Fantastic Four. He's also singlehandedly wrecked teams of Avengers and X-Men. His rogues gallery routinely gets tired of him easily beating (and embarrassing) them individually and form teams simply to overwhelm him.

I've said it elsewhere and I'm saying it here. Peter Parker is the most dangerous "Low power" person in the marvel universe. Dude got angry and beat on a She-Hulk level baddie to the point that she developed an acute phobia of him.

Think about that for a second.

Dude is NOT a passively defensive medic.

And no, my idea isn't to give him a bunch of moves that hit the whole team for huge damage. lol nah. It's to get down to the core of the character. To make him the most annoying (and scary) piece **** to play against, while making him fun to play with.

All Tied Up - Blue 5
Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds a Yellow Web tile to the board.
Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 3 Web tiles exist
Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist
Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tile exists
Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 1 or 2 Web tiles exist.

SPIDER-SENSE - Purple 8

Spidey creates a 4 turn yellow countdown tile. While tile is active, Spidey automatically dodges enemy attacks over 500 damage. (Or whatever damage based on how D3 does math)

Level Upgrades
Level 2: Dodges attacks over 400 damage.
Level 3: Countdown increases to 5. Dodges attacks over 300 damage.
Level 4: Dodges attacks over 200 damage.
Level 5: Countdown increases to 6. Dodges attacks over 200 damage

He automatically AVOIDS attacks. Because, you know.... that's what his Spider Sense actually makes him do.

MAXIMUM SPIDER - Black Passive
(PASSIVE) Spidey attacks with blinding speed, hitting the enemy multiple times before they can react.
If 4 Web Tiles exist, Spidey does an additional 6 damage when making a Blue match (like OBW's espionage)
Level Upgrades
Level 2: Also deals 6 damage when making a Black match.
Level 3: Also deals 6 damage when making a Purple match.
Level 4: Web Tiles needed Decreases to 3, Deals 12 damage when making a Purple, Blue, or Black match.
Level 5: If 3 Web Tiles exist, increases damage to 18 when making a Purple, Blue, or Black match. (*still like Espionage, but attacks THREE extra times instead of two)

Max Level: 168 additional damage (56 x 3)



Yes No Maybe? Tweaks and suggestions are welcome.

Malcrof

Would definitely need more abilities that add web tiles if you are basing skills off them.

Kolence

I like the purple. I agree it should be a low cost, 6 to 8 AP at most, so it can be used easily. But on the other hand it could be really strong if you can't target the CD. Perhaps make the CD reduce value for every avoided hit? Or eat up a Web tile for every avoided hit while CD is out? Some way to actively work against it, other than direct CD removal or stun.

Why is his blue making just yellow Web tiles when he'd no longer use that color? Those can just be random then. Or purple if it's supposed to limit their number by matching.

Don't like the passive. Much prefer the attack I proposed in his thread. It can add more Web tiles, does damage and annoys his opponents with wise cracking making them spend more AP on powers. I think that fits the character well? That one is meant to go with his blue power making yellow Web tiles, though. Here it is, see if you like it:
5 AP.
Does damage to the target and makes a blue Web tile. If the target is stunned, deal extra damage. If not, increase target's ability costs by ?? AP (increase the cost more based on Web tiles at higher covers) until their team makes a tile match move while they are not stunned.

Unknown

Like the ideas, but just to throw in an alternate idea for Spider-sense:

Passive
Any time Spidey would receive damage over X, instead create a 2 turn countdown tile that will deal the same damage to Spidey if it is not matched or destroyed before countdown reaches zero.

With more covers reduce X and increase turns on the countdown tile, possibly up to 5 turns?

If it was a 4* character could also complicate by attempting to simulate a time-slowing effect: Stun everyone except Spider-Man while countdown tile is in play (or 1 turn if that's less game-breaking).

MarcusGraves

So as of right now I really demand that spiderman's **** web bandages becomes the new 1* spiderman's Spectacular Strategy and actually keep it as a yellow ability.

-It drastically improves his ability to effectively stun with All Tied Up
-Dropping 2 web tiles from max spectacular strategy is really great for powering up his protect tiles instead of just relying on blue
-It turns him into the offensive support we've all wanted for a long time

I seriously would like people to fight for this change because D3 is just too slow on finally buffing characters that simply need it and I feel like them putting this on a 1* is kinda a slap in the face since we've been dying for a spider-man buff for a long time and THIS is the power that completely brings the character together.

I know this probably belongs a little more in the suggestion section but stuff there just does not get serious enough attention there and this is technically discussing the character's balance as the section description states.

Unknown

No.
1* are allowed to have slightly over powered abilities because they aren't usable outside of a certain range. If 3* spiderman got these abilities, pair him up with Xavier; I'm sure you could often hit 1 or 2 crits with 4 criticals already lying about the board.

Unknown

Not only that, but there are players who are happy with Spider-Man's healing power, and changing the power whole sale will cause issues for people who use the power as is, and there would be completely justifiable complaints.

I still think he should get some form of attack based on protect tiles, to match his counter attack style in the comics, be it tied to his yellow, with a "less than X Webs does damage, More than X webs does heal" mechanic, or by turning his purple into a hybrid passive/active like Dr Dooms.

Xenoberyll

Haetron wrote:

Not only that, but there are players who are happy with Spider-Man's healing power, and changing the power whole sale will cause issues for people who use the power as is, and there would be completely justifiable complaints.

Like that ever kept the Devs from changing something (Xforce, SheThor...)

Healing and no offense just isn't fitting for Spidey. His 1star version is so much more Spider-Man than the 3star.

Unknown

Xenoberyll wrote:

Haetron wrote:

Not only that, but there are players who are happy with Spider-Man's healing power, and changing the power whole sale will cause issues for people who use the power as is, and there would be completely justifiable complaints.

Like that ever kept the Devs from changing something (Xforce, SheThor...)

Healing and no offense just isn't fitting for Spidey. His 1star version is so much more Spider-Man than the 3star.

Forgive me, as I started playing after those changes, but weren't they just changes in effectiveness for the powers, and not "Completely change into a new power altogether" changes?

CrookedKnight

The X-Force nerf is a lesson in how rebalancing a power can change how it's used even if it's broadly doing the same stuff. Surgical Strike was fundamentally changed at levels 4 and 5 because it no longer reduces enemy AP, nor does it gain AP for X-Force's team (it used to be -10 AP for the other side on the targeted color, and you'd gain AP for each destroyed tile as if you'd matched them). His green still does damage and destroys tiles, but the damage used to be high enough that it was the main reason to use the move -- the nerf dropped its power by about 75%, and now it's only good for the random board shake.

Punisher5784

Haetron wrote:

Not only that, but there are players who are happy with Spider-Man's healing power, and changing the power whole sale will cause issues for people who use the power as is, and there would be completely justifiable complaints.

Who is happy about Spider-Man's Heal? I've never read that anywhere! It's too expensive and needs web tiles to be useful.

This is what they could do:
-Every ability creates a Web tile. That's what makes 1* good.
-Keep the Heal (for those who will miss it) and add it to his Purple ability. When an Enemy matches your purple protect tile, Spidey heals the team ---HP. His Protect Tile is inferior compared to Luke Cage and Bullseye (Yes I will keep saying this!) so this small Heal would make a great difference.
-Remove the Yellow and Add the Red power from the 1* but buff it more damage (like Steve Roger's red compared to 2* Cap) but not crazy damage, he'll still mainly be Support.

I agree that the 1*'s Purple would be too strong for a 3*. Think of it this way, there are three 1* Critical Tile Makers (Spidey, Yelena & Hawkeye) and 1 2* (Bullseye) compared to 1 3* (QS). I hope they definitely make some changes, no one will miss the Heal just like no one misses 2* Hawkeye's Avoid ability. Anyone remember that skill...? No, exactly.