To Devs - Marvel puzzle quest or Marvel vs. kitty ?

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  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    It seems like people want teams they don’t use nerfed simply so they can use their preferred teams and not be open to retaliation. In which case, your preferred team would be the new/only Meta and everyone will start calling for it to be nerfed as well because it will be the only team present at the top. 

    Nerfing is not the answer. Eventually that will touch every team if people keep complaining because we have varied rosters, different Meta combos, and different ideas of what is fair.

    There is absolutely no way to avoid there being one or several best teams. They will always be picked by those who have them and maligned by those who don’t. Nerfing any of the characters in this discussion just means 100 percent Thor/Okoye at the top...which by the logic presented from almost every pro nerf advocate (such a weird thing) means that team should be nerfed at the same time.

    Maybe just let people have nice things and enjoy the game. Focus on getting the most from the roster you have and maximizing your enjoyment as the game is, rather than trying to give yourself a better home field advantage by griping for challenges to be removed.

    Edit: That’s what I get for posting before reading the last comment. So TL;DR - I agree with NotBamf
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    NotBAMF said:

    If your complaint about Gritty is "It's so annoying fighting the same team over and over", then you don't have a complaint because even if both are nerfed tomorrow, something else will just take their place as the new "best team".

    Grocket and Kitty are both fine, both easily counterable, and they are essential to keeping PVE playable. Leave them be.

    No, it is about a team combination that it is completely broken ( the same as Gambit was, or 3 Magneto, or Ragnarok). They are broken, and you know it. When a 4 (not buffed) and a 5 team can obliterate full 5 teams and the most strong PvE enemies without problems (and without firing a power) you know there is something wrong. And in Shield the team is two 4s and one 5! And Bishop is even better if he is not completely leveled. Even more broken!

    You know they only reason you dont want them nerfed is because they let you clear boards (specially in PvE) super fast. But I will ask you, what is the point? Do you even fire a power? Do you find it fun to play Gritty? It is like playing a game with God mode On.

    If you read my comment, you probably saw that I also requested buff fors 5s in PvP, so the meta shifts a bit (like they did for 4s, when te game was also getting stale three years ago). I get we didnt get buffs for 5s when there were just 4 or 5 and OML dominated. But nowadays, Why the f. we dont have buffs for 5s? At least we would have different teams every week!
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    NotBAMF said:

    I do agree Bishop is problematic. If they felt a need to nerf Bishop, I wouldn't be opposed to that. But Grocket and/or Kitty? Nah.

    Yeah, having just finished the climb to 75 wins in the PVP simulator with generally 4* MMR (I used a lot of 3* teams to encourage retaliation from easier teams, but I saw a good number of single-champ 5* teams as well), Bishop really should be the only character on the radar for a nerf, and even that would be more of a slight adjustment than wholesale change.  If the passive triggered somewhere between 6-10% of his max health for a champed Bishop (similar to XFDP's passive) rather than the 2-3% it is now it would keep the original intent while toning down the auto-stunning that you can accidentally get from unboosted 3* match damage.

    As an experiment, I skipped literally every 4* R&G team (and never used them myself) just to see if the climb to 75 wins would be possible if pretended he wasn't in the game and I never had to spend more than 20-30 iso-8 (and very rarely that much) to find a good target.  He was easily one of the three most common 4*'s I saw, but there were a lot of different teams out there, especially early in the season.  Admittedly, later in the season it may be different, but if you're sick of R&G the early climb is easily possible to get more variety.


    Just my $0.02, albeit from a very casual player.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    NotBAMF said:
    Polares said:
    NotBAMF said:

    If your complaint about Gritty is "It's so annoying fighting the same team over and over", then you don't have a complaint because even if both are nerfed tomorrow, something else will just take their place as the new "best team".

    Grocket and Kitty are both fine, both easily counterable, and they are essential to keeping PVE playable. Leave them be.

    No, it is about a team combination that it is completely broken ( the same as Gambit was, or 3 Magneto, or Ragnarok). They are broken, and you know it. When a 4 (not buffed) and a 5 team can obliterate full 5 teams and the most strong PvE enemies without problems (and without firing a power) you know there is something wrong. And in Shield the team is two 4s and one 5! And Bishop is even better if he is not completely leveled. Even more broken!

    You know they only reason you dont want them nerfed is because they let you clear boards (specially in PvE) super fast. But I will ask you, what is the point? Do you even fire a power? Do you find it fun to play Gritty? It is like playing a game with God mode On.

    If you read my comment, you probably saw that I also requested buff fors 5s in PvP, so the meta shifts a bit (like they did for 4s, when te game was also getting stale three years ago). I get we didnt get buffs for 5s when there were just 4 or 5 and OML dominated. But nowadays, Why the f. we dont have buffs for 5s? At least we would have different teams every week!

    It's not completely broken.

    It's not even remotely close to completely broken.

    As many, many other folks in this thread have said, they are eminently beatable and counterable. People are more upset about having to use health packs and/or change their go-to team between battles than they are that the Gritty team is somehow broken and unbeatable.

    Comparing them to Gambit is not even in the same realm as close. Gambit was in a broken class all by himself. That's not a good comparison at all. You needed Gambit to beat Gambit. You can beat Gritty with any number of other teams. Again, scroll through the thread. You'll see whole lists of teams that defeat Gritty.

    And using Gritty in PVE is not God Mode; as others have stated here, using literally almost any 5* in PVE is better/faster than Gritty for 4* players. But Gritty is the only thing 4* players have to even help bridge the gap somewhat. So that's hardly "God Mode". Are you a 5* player? Do you use your 3* characters in PVE because using your "god mode" 5*'s makes it boring?

    You want to talk broken? PVE is broken. Having to clear the same nodes for multiple times in a hurry at specific times of day? It's repetitive, boring, stressful, and tedious. So yes, Gritty makes it tolerable. PVE is awful, and Gritty is the only reason I still play it, personally.

    I do agree Bishop is problematic. If they felt a need to nerf Bishop, I wouldn't be opposed to that. But Grocket and/or Kitty? Nah.

    Were you here when 3 star Magneto was reworked? Would you say he was broken? Was he beatable? (the answers are obiously yes he was op, and yes he was beatable). The same goes for 3 star Spidey, and some of the other real OP chars (not like poor OML nerfed without reason).

    A team might be OP and still be countereable or beatable (mostly because AI is stupid). A team is OP when it can easily punch trough a category above them (that is I think a great definition for OP in games). With Gritty you can easily won 5 stars teams, and not just that you can even won 550 level 5s. That says it all. A 4 and a 5 at base levels can beat 550 level teams. Try to do the same with any other combination of a 4 and a 5. Even with two 450 level 5s you are going to have serious problems.

    And sure PvE is boring, but it ALWAYS has been like that, this is nothing new. This game has always been about repetition. To be fair, I think the game is now way worse than it used to be, as you dont even need to think while playing, you just match tiles and you win, which makes it even more tedious. i still don't understand why Devs changed PvE so 5 matches were needed to get the max CP they made a big big mistake, that was pretty dumb.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    OJSP said:
    Polares said:
    If you read my comment, you probably saw that I also requested buff fors 5s in PvP, so the meta shifts a bit (like they did for 4s, when te game was also getting stale three years ago). I get we didnt get buffs for 5s when there were just 4 or 5 and OML dominated. But nowadays, Why dont have buffs for 5s? At least we would have different teams every week!
    This is an interesting point. 

    I suppose it would make some characters more usable as they could hit harder than usual, but how big of a level boost are we talking about? Using my own roster as an example and how I play with my 5*s, with Classic characters roughly 10-20 levels higher than Thor, Okoye, and Kitty (let's call them the big three) I can confidently say, they are still massively behind in the power curve.

    To make the older ones comparable and to allow them to beat the big three reliably, I think they need to be boosted at least 30 levels. So, what happens to people with only the older 5*s when the big three are boosted 30 levels?

    Smaller level boosts might be fine to some characters like Hawkeye, DD or even BSSM to specifically counter Kitty, but that wouldn't do much to help others.

    Wasp or arguably Banner might need a bigger level boost to be relevant.

    I would say, probably the same as in PvE. It should be enough so you really want to bring them instead of Thor / Okoye, or Gritty. At the very least 70 levels. Devs should at least try it out. If it doesn't work we can always go back, but it worked for 4s, so I don't see why it should not work for 5s (now that there is plenty of them and players have 6+ leveled).

    It would also give more reasons for people still waiting in 4 land to finally go 5.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares said:
    NotBAMF said:
    Polares said:
    NotBAMF said:

    If your complaint about Gritty is "It's so annoying fighting the same team over and over", then you don't have a complaint because even if both are nerfed tomorrow, something else will just take their place as the new "best team".

    Grocket and Kitty are both fine, both easily counterable, and they are essential to keeping PVE playable. Leave them be.

    No, it is about a team combination that it is completely broken ( the same as Gambit was, or 3 Magneto, or Ragnarok). They are broken, and you know it. When a 4 (not buffed) and a 5 team can obliterate full 5 teams and the most strong PvE enemies without problems (and without firing a power) you know there is something wrong. And in Shield the team is two 4s and one 5! And Bishop is even better if he is not completely leveled. Even more broken!

    You know they only reason you dont want them nerfed is because they let you clear boards (specially in PvE) super fast. But I will ask you, what is the point? Do you even fire a power? Do you find it fun to play Gritty? It is like playing a game with God mode On.

    If you read my comment, you probably saw that I also requested buff fors 5s in PvP, so the meta shifts a bit (like they did for 4s, when te game was also getting stale three years ago). I get we didnt get buffs for 5s when there were just 4 or 5 and OML dominated. But nowadays, Why the f. we dont have buffs for 5s? At least we would have different teams every week!

    It's not completely broken.

    It's not even remotely close to completely broken.

    As many, many other folks in this thread have said, they are eminently beatable and counterable. People are more upset about having to use health packs and/or change their go-to team between battles than they are that the Gritty team is somehow broken and unbeatable.

    Comparing them to Gambit is not even in the same realm as close. Gambit was in a broken class all by himself. That's not a good comparison at all. You needed Gambit to beat Gambit. You can beat Gritty with any number of other teams. Again, scroll through the thread. You'll see whole lists of teams that defeat Gritty.

    And using Gritty in PVE is not God Mode; as others have stated here, using literally almost any 5* in PVE is better/faster than Gritty for 4* players. But Gritty is the only thing 4* players have to even help bridge the gap somewhat. So that's hardly "God Mode". Are you a 5* player? Do you use your 3* characters in PVE because using your "god mode" 5*'s makes it boring?

    You want to talk broken? PVE is broken. Having to clear the same nodes for multiple times in a hurry at specific times of day? It's repetitive, boring, stressful, and tedious. So yes, Gritty makes it tolerable. PVE is awful, and Gritty is the only reason I still play it, personally.

    I do agree Bishop is problematic. If they felt a need to nerf Bishop, I wouldn't be opposed to that. But Grocket and/or Kitty? Nah.

    Were you here when 3 star Magneto was reworked? Would you say he was broken? Was he beatable? (the answers are obiously yes he was op, and yes he was beatable). The same goes for 3 star Spidey, and some of the other real OP chars (not like poor OML nerfed without reason).

    A team might be OP and still be countereable or beatable (mostly because AI is stupid). A team is OP when it can easily punch trough a category above them (that is I think a great definition for OP in games). With Gritty you can easily won 5 stars teams, and not just that you can even won 550 level 5s. That says it all. A 4 and a 5 at base levels can beat 550 level teams. Try to do the same with any other combination of a 4 and a 5. Even with two 450 level 5s you are going to have serious problems.

    And sure PvE is boring, but it ALWAYS has been like that, this is nothing new. This game has always been about repetition. To be fair, I think the game is now way worse than it used to be, as you dont even need to think while playing, you just match tiles and you win, which makes it even more tedious. i still don't understand why Devs changed PvE so 5 matches were needed to get the max CP they made a big big mistake, that was pretty dumb.
    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards

    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    Link to video? i want to see this team in action since my loki is low key sad. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    Malcrof said:

    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    Link to video? i want to see this team in action since my loki is low key sad. 
    https://youtu.be/Bgmm8ZtO75g

    Granted Carol does alot here as well generating more purple for the Loki death machine.
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    tiomono said:
    Malcrof said:

    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    Link to video? i want to see this team in action since my loki is low key sad. 


    Granted Carol does alot here as well generating more purple for the Loki death machine.
    Using the Carol yellow on SW is semi genius, never would have thought of it, always used it on her cd lol, thank you for this, no Loki, but now 4arol//sw are going to have some fun in the next PVE
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Malcrof said:
    tiomono said:
    Malcrof said:

    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    Link to video? i want to see this team in action since my loki is low key sad. 


    Granted Carol does alot here as well generating more purple for the Loki death machine.
    Using the Carol yellow on SW is semi genius, never would have thought of it, always used it on her cd lol, thank you for this, no Loki, but now 4arol//sw are going to have some fun in the next PVE
    Don't let a team with a 3 star beat on too many 4 star teams. Thems grounds for a nerfin.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    Polares said:
    NotBAMF said:
    Polares said:
    NotBAMF said:

    If your complaint about Gritty is "It's so annoying fighting the same team over and over", then you don't have a complaint because even if both are nerfed tomorrow, something else will just take their place as the new "best team".

    Grocket and Kitty are both fine, both easily counterable, and they are essential to keeping PVE playable. Leave them be.

    No, it is about a team combination that it is completely broken ( the same as Gambit was, or 3 Magneto, or Ragnarok). They are broken, and you know it. When a 4 (not buffed) and a 5 team can obliterate full 5 teams and the most strong PvE enemies without problems (and without firing a power) you know there is something wrong. And in Shield the team is two 4s and one 5! And Bishop is even better if he is not completely leveled. Even more broken!

    You know they only reason you dont want them nerfed is because they let you clear boards (specially in PvE) super fast. But I will ask you, what is the point? Do you even fire a power? Do you find it fun to play Gritty? It is like playing a game with God mode On.

    If you read my comment, you probably saw that I also requested buff fors 5s in PvP, so the meta shifts a bit (like they did for 4s, when te game was also getting stale three years ago). I get we didnt get buffs for 5s when there were just 4 or 5 and OML dominated. But nowadays, Why the f. we dont have buffs for 5s? At least we would have different teams every week!

    It's not completely broken.

    It's not even remotely close to completely broken.

    As many, many other folks in this thread have said, they are eminently beatable and counterable. People are more upset about having to use health packs and/or change their go-to team between battles than they are that the Gritty team is somehow broken and unbeatable.

    Comparing them to Gambit is not even in the same realm as close. Gambit was in a broken class all by himself. That's not a good comparison at all. You needed Gambit to beat Gambit. You can beat Gritty with any number of other teams. Again, scroll through the thread. You'll see whole lists of teams that defeat Gritty.

    And using Gritty in PVE is not God Mode; as others have stated here, using literally almost any 5* in PVE is better/faster than Gritty for 4* players. But Gritty is the only thing 4* players have to even help bridge the gap somewhat. So that's hardly "God Mode". Are you a 5* player? Do you use your 3* characters in PVE because using your "god mode" 5*'s makes it boring?

    You want to talk broken? PVE is broken. Having to clear the same nodes for multiple times in a hurry at specific times of day? It's repetitive, boring, stressful, and tedious. So yes, Gritty makes it tolerable. PVE is awful, and Gritty is the only reason I still play it, personally.

    I do agree Bishop is problematic. If they felt a need to nerf Bishop, I wouldn't be opposed to that. But Grocket and/or Kitty? Nah.

    Were you here when 3 star Magneto was reworked? Would you say he was broken? Was he beatable? (the answers are obiously yes he was op, and yes he was beatable). The same goes for 3 star Spidey, and some of the other real OP chars (not like poor OML nerfed without reason).

    A team might be OP and still be countereable or beatable (mostly because AI is stupid). A team is OP when it can easily punch trough a category above them (that is I think a great definition for OP in games). With Gritty you can easily won 5 stars teams, and not just that you can even won 550 level 5s. That says it all. A 4 and a 5 at base levels can beat 550 level teams. Try to do the same with any other combination of a 4 and a 5. Even with two 450 level 5s you are going to have serious problems.

    And sure PvE is boring, but it ALWAYS has been like that, this is nothing new. This game has always been about repetition. To be fair, I think the game is now way worse than it used to be, as you dont even need to think while playing, you just match tiles and you win, which makes it even more tedious. i still don't understand why Devs changed PvE so 5 matches were needed to get the max CP they made a big big mistake, that was pretty dumb.
    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    **** man! So a 5 a 4 and a 3 beat a 5 and 4, how is that punching through a category above them ?!?!? 

    Also, I will add, speed is a big issue here. You might win with a team of 4s a team of 5s, but usually you need A LOT of time, and strategy.

    So let me add, to the rule, in no time and with 0 strategy, to make it even more clear.

    A team is OP when it can easily punch trough a category above them super fast and with almost no strategy required.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    @polares

    Got it. So let's nerf 5* thanos with grocket while we are at it. Brainless, fast, doesn't need to fire any powers.

    If a 5 and a 4 beating 5's is punching above their weight. Than any team including a 3* that beats a team with 5* is punching above their weight imo. And in the 2:18 video loki wins on turn 7 I would call that fairly fast.
  • moss04
    moss04 Posts: 147 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2019
    tiomono said:
    Malcrof said:

    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    Link to video? i want to see this team in action since my loki is low key sad. 
    https://youtu.be/Bgmm8ZtO75g

    Granted Carol does alot here as well generating more purple for the Loki death machine.

    This is an egregiously bad example as a large amount of luck was required for this to play out this way. Firstly, they managed to destroy most of the strike tiles with the first few moves and with random placement of SW's CD adding extra matches.  That's lucky and won't often play out that way.  Secondly, because the SW's CD got matched away a few times and they got their yellow quickly they managed to trigger the CD before Kitty's circuit breaker ate it.  That also won't normally happen and bringing SW to a gritty match is usually a recipe for eating a diaper full of damage from circuit breaker.
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    Based on Kitty's health it looks like she's about level 365, Nico is level 273, and R4G is 272.
    The Player's Loki is somewhere around level 400 (this is based on how much damage Dagger Surprise is listed as doing, because I cannot find stats for Loki's health at 450), while the Player's Carol is 286, and SWitch is 182.
    So a Player with a level 400 Loki, a top-tier Champion 4*, and a Champion 3*, is beating a level 365 Kitty with two low-level 4* Champions.
    Yes, one of the enemy 4*s is R4G, but the other 4* is not Bishop.
    This definitely seems like a fun anti-Gritty team, but I expect it would only work against lower level Gritty teams, and then only against Gritty teams without Bishop, or Thing, or XPool, etc.
    On defense, there's far too much micromanagement for the AI to play it effectively, and any half-decent player with a Gritty team, or any comparable 5* team for that matter, would tear this team apart.
    That's why Gritty+Bishop is a nasty team on defense, it does not require much "thought" from the AI.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    moss04 said:
    tiomono said:
    Malcrof said:

    So punching above your tier is op and needs to be dealt with? There is a video with 5* Loki, 4* Carol, and 3* scarlet witch dismantling gritty with nico. That says it all. When you have a 3 star on a team easily beating 5*s something must be done. 

    Scarloki is op and needs to be dealt with.
    Link to video? i want to see this team in action since my loki is low key sad. 
    https://youtu.be/Bgmm8ZtO75g

    Granted Carol does alot here as well generating more purple for the Loki death machine.

    This is an egregiously bad example as a large amount of luck was required for this to play out this way. Firstly, they managed to destroy most of the strike tiles with the first few moves and with random placement of SW's CD adding extra matches.  That's lucky and won't often play out that way.  Secondly, because the SW's CD got matched away a few times and they got their yellow quickly they managed to trigger the CD before Kitty's circuit breaker ate it.  That also won't normally happen and bringing SW to a gritty match is usually a recipe for eating a diaper full of damage from circuit breaker.
    I wasn't really stating it was a gritty counter. Take kitty out of it. This team could murder other teams of 5's. And with a bit of luck can take down the meta monster that is gritty. This is an example of a team that can punch above its weight easily, not a specific gritty counter.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    I'm not convinced. In that video, Gritty side was down to 3 strike tiles after 3 moves. That was a relatively lucky board, albeit, the attacker brought SWitch along, presumably for her cascade potential, which paid off nicely that time.

    Anyway, I agree with Polares about what makes a team OP. I've seen a player with 15+ champed 5-stars (including the best ones) climb and float in the Avengers pvp recently with something like 420 Kitty and Rocket and Bishop champed. Both of them were not boosted in that event too. That player finished the event in top 10, CL 9. :p 

    Bishop is super broken, against 5-star players. If the solution for a 5-star roster to fight a Bishop team in pvp is using your 4-stars instead of 5-stars, something is wrong, because the rest of how the game works, will punish you for it.

    Kitty isn't broken at all, without instant strike tiles from the get go. Sure, with special tile spammers, she'd still be very good, but nowhere near as punishing as with Rocket currently. Her purple can also be a bit of a problem against some older 5-stars, but I guess that's power creep so it's ok... :)

    All Rocket needs to have changed is start the match with 0 strike tiles (or at least under 4 or better yet 3, for Kitty + X-Men) and make 7-9 by turn 4 and then make no more. So pve would require more time? That's more of a separate issue to me, but even so, it would be 2 or 3 more moves per match. And considering many rosters take more time between consecutive matches out of actual fight, I don't see it as bad. To me, the mind numbing repetitiveness of pve is a much bigger problem.

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