To Devs - Marvel puzzle quest or Marvel vs. kitty ?

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Comments

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    I disagree with pretty much everything Zeofar wrote.

    It's absolutely clear that the problem in Gritty is Kitty's passive. I'll say that because:
    1) The Buff train is uncapped (ie happens every turn forever rather than say max buffing tiles by 200 or 300% regardless of turns required to get there) so tiles can go to infinity esp in wave nodes.
    2) The Buff is an absolute number (which is *very* high near and above champ level) rather than a percentage (say 33% increase per turn which would ramp the tiles up much more slowly on 4* and below characters)
    3) Lastly, and most importantly, lets say I offered a massive Grocket nerf of 90% reduction on his tile strength (7 strength 13 or 28) at L270. This would nerf Grocket into oblivion like Sentry was. But would it fix the Gritty problem? No, because the Buff train is still improving 5 of them by 653 (3000+) a turn at champ levels. It would just delay things by 1 turn.

    Look, Kitty Buff is the problem. It's uncapped and increases by X amount instead of a percentage so that it turns even weak tiles by lower tier characters into killers.

    As far a PvE goes, I'm with NotBAMF. Removing Grocket would make PvE intolerable because the Devs are not going to reduce the clears. My clear time (4 clears) went from over an hour before Grocket to 30 minutes or less with him (that's using GrockMorDusa since I don't have a functional Kitty yet). So we are not talking about saving 10 minutes a day, we are talking an hour or more saved a day when considering 6 or 7 clears. That's significant time.

    And all for what? 4* players like me (<L300 characters) just skip Gritty teams since there is so many others to target. Veteran 5* players (12+ champs with Thorkoye/BSSM) don't find Gritty to be a problem. It's just 5* transition players who only have a few champs and no working Gritty counter at the 5* tier that post endlessly asking for a Nerf (and never to their 5* Kitty who is the problem, always to the tier they are leaving an no longer want to care about). I wonder what % of PvP players Gritty is really a problem for vs the whole of MPQ PvE and PvP players in the 4/5* tiers. I bet it's <5%.

    KGB
    I get what your saying but without 7 tiles on the board at turn zero kitty has nothing to buff till people start firing powers.

    Grocket is way too brainless. If he had a passive like carnage, putting out 2 specials a turn this wouldnt even be a conversation. 7 tiles for free equaling 1000 damage or more on every bit of damage you do on turn 0 is a problem.
  • nippy
    nippy Posts: 38 Just Dropped In
    Just FYI, came back after 4month break and amazed simulator is all Gritty...  still did 2000 for 4* reward without much issue.  Used alot more health packs.

    Main anti-gritty was Okoye + 1/2Thor + XFD.  Wished I could use gritty too but RNG made my kitty 1/5/5  ARGHHHH
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,203 Chairperson of the Boards
    The problem stems from the inability to earn classic 5 stars. So Players that didn't play 24/7 or get lucky pulls to fully cover her before she got yanked will take years to fully cover her.

    The only character the helps counter her is also a classic, so good luck covering him.

    So in reality the issue comes back to 5 star classic dilution. Even though i hate playing against the gritty combo, you can't be to mad as it makes everything way faster and speed is the name of the game in MPQ. Same with Thor and Okoye ( except they are way easier to counter as they take time to get going, while Gritty is a pain out of the gate)

  • moss04
    moss04 Posts: 147 Tile Toppler
    KGB said:
    I disagree with pretty much everything Zeofar wrote.

    It's absolutely clear that the problem in Gritty is Kitty's passive. I'll say that because:
    1) The Buff train is uncapped (ie happens every turn forever rather than say max buffing tiles by 200 or 300% regardless of turns required to get there) so tiles can go to infinity esp in wave nodes.
    2) The Buff is an absolute number (which is *very* high near and above champ level) rather than a percentage (say 33% increase per turn which would ramp the tiles up much more slowly on 4* and below characters)
    3) Lastly, and most importantly, lets say I offered a massive Grocket nerf of 90% reduction on his tile strength (7 strength 13 or 28) at L270. This would nerf Grocket into oblivion like Sentry was. But would it fix the Gritty problem? No, because the Buff train is still improving 5 of them by 653 (3000+) a turn at champ levels. It would just delay things by 1 turn.

    Look, Kitty Buff is the problem. It's uncapped and increases by X amount instead of a percentage so that it turns even weak tiles by lower tier characters into killers.

    As far a PvE goes, I'm with NotBAMF. Removing Grocket would make PvE intolerable because the Devs are not going to reduce the clears. My clear time (4 clears) went from over an hour before Grocket to 30 minutes or less with him (that's using GrockMorDusa since I don't have a functional Kitty yet). So we are not talking about saving 10 minutes a day, we are talking an hour or more saved a day when considering 6 or 7 clears. That's significant time.

    And all for what? 4* players like me (<L300 characters) just skip Gritty teams since there is so many others to target. Veteran 5* players (12+ champs with Thorkoye/BSSM) don't find Gritty to be a problem. It's just 5* transition players who only have a few champs and no working Gritty counter at the 5* tier that post endlessly asking for a Nerf (and never to their 5* Kitty who is the problem, always to the tier they are leaving an no longer want to care about). I wonder what % of PvP players Gritty is really a problem for vs the whole of MPQ PvE and PvP players in the 4/5* tiers. I bet it's <5%.

    KGB
    The best fix for Grocket IMO would be instead of making 7 x 150 strikes at the start of battle, one of the following:
    1) makes 3 x 350 strikes at the start of battle
    2) if less than 4 friendly strike tiles exist currently on the board makes a 400 strike per turn

    These both let grocket provide strong damage boost very early but both also slow down his interaction with kitty long enough that the combo won't be oppressive because you can likely take 1 or more team members out before it reaches the point of no return.  It would drastically help with PvP but leave him being very useful for PvE
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    DyingLegend said:
    The problem stems from the inability to earn classic 5 stars. So Players that didn't play 24/7 or get lucky pulls to fully cover her before she got yanked will take years to fully cover her.

    The only character the helps counter her is also a classic, so good luck covering him.

    So in reality the issue comes back to 5 star classic dilution. Even though i hate playing against the gritty combo, you can't be to mad as it makes everything way faster and speed is the name of the game in MPQ. Same with Thor and Okoye ( except they are way easier to counter as they take time to get going, while Gritty is a pain out of the gate)

    If you mean black suit spidey as a counter to kitty, he is not. He stops strike tiles. Kitty puts out attack and protect tiles. She needs help to get strikes on the board.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    I disagree with pretty much everything Zeofar wrote.

    It's absolutely clear that the problem in Gritty is Kitty's passive. I'll say that because:
    1) The Buff train is uncapped (ie happens every turn forever rather than say max buffing tiles by 200 or 300% regardless of turns required to get there) so tiles can go to infinity esp in wave nodes.
    2) The Buff is an absolute number (which is *very* high near and above champ level) rather than a percentage (say 33% increase per turn which would ramp the tiles up much more slowly on 4* and below characters)
    3) Lastly, and most importantly, lets say I offered a massive Grocket nerf of 90% reduction on his tile strength (7 strength 13 or 28) at L270. This would nerf Grocket into oblivion like Sentry was. But would it fix the Gritty problem? No, because the Buff train is still improving 5 of them by 653 (3000+) a turn at champ levels. It would just delay things by 1 turn.

    Look, Kitty Buff is the problem. It's uncapped and increases by X amount instead of a percentage so that it turns even weak tiles by lower tier characters into killers.

    As far a PvE goes, I'm with NotBAMF. Removing Grocket would make PvE intolerable because the Devs are not going to reduce the clears. My clear time (4 clears) went from over an hour before Grocket to 30 minutes or less with him (that's using GrockMorDusa since I don't have a functional Kitty yet). So we are not talking about saving 10 minutes a day, we are talking an hour or more saved a day when considering 6 or 7 clears. That's significant time.

    And all for what? 4* players like me (<L300 characters) just skip Gritty teams since there is so many others to target. Veteran 5* players (12+ champs with Thorkoye/BSSM) don't find Gritty to be a problem. It's just 5* transition players who only have a few champs and no working Gritty counter at the 5* tier that post endlessly asking for a Nerf (and never to their 5* Kitty who is the problem, always to the tier they are leaving an no longer want to care about). I wonder what % of PvP players Gritty is really a problem for vs the whole of MPQ PvE and PvP players in the 4/5* tiers. I bet it's <5%.

    KGB
    I strongly disagree with this. Nico also has infinite uncapped buffs for EVERY tile. So that is not inherently a problem. It’s also an absolute number and not a percentage. Just the number is much smaller because she buffs more tiles and is in a lower tier. 

    Bottom line is if you take away Grocket, Kitty is good but not meta. She’s upper mid tier probably. And pure support, as she does little to nothing on her own. I play her a ton with Daredevil (more than Grocket actually). That’s probably my favorite team to play right now. It’s very easy to beat because it takes time for the buff train to get going. Rocket takes away the time needed to ramp up because he puts 7 strong strikes on the table from the jump. 

    Grocket has been a staple for PVE in all tiers and PVP for 4* players since he debuted. Kitty brought him to the 5* PVP realm, but really, Grocket has been meta since his inception. He doesn’t need Kitty to thrive, but Kitty needs Grocket (and don’t give me that Kitty/Carnage stuff because that’s not nearly as good). 

    I guess what I’m saying is if one had to be nerfed, it should be Grocket, but really they shouldn’t touch either as neither are unbeatable. And I read earlier someone said that getting rid of Grocket is getting rid of 4* players only chance to compete with 5* players in PVE. I’m sorry to say but with or without Grocket those players aren’t competing unless the 5* player chooses to or can’t play optimally. Because guess what? They all have Grocket too! Probably a bigger one. So dropping him won’t change the pecking order. 
  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor


    I guess what I’m saying is if one had to be nerfed, it should be Grocket, but really they shouldn’t touch either as neither are unbeatable. And I read earlier someone said that getting rid of Grocket is getting rid of 4* players only chance to compete with 5* players in PVE. I’m sorry to say but with or without Grocket those players aren’t competing unless the 5* player chooses to or can’t play optimally. Because guess what? They all have Grocket too! Probably a bigger one. So dropping him won’t change the pecking order. 
    It's more the 5-star tier has other options available to them that can help them speed up play by having a deeper roster that most newer rosters don't. The 5-star players lose Grocket, they'll just fall back on another older 5-star in their roster with their heightened damage that will still let them burn through the game faster. A 4-star player doesn't have those options at all times, so hamstringing Grocket hurts their competitive edge to the point it goes from a 45 minute slog back to an hour or more to do four clears, thus way out of the realm of competition. With a Kitty and Grocket, a 4-star player can compete because everyone is playing optimally, and those who aren't in top 50 or higher at certain SCLs are those who aren't playing optimally anymore.
  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker
    spidyjedi84 said:


    I guess what I’m saying is if one had to be nerfed, it should be Grocket, but really they shouldn’t touch either as neither are unbeatable. And I read earlier someone said that getting rid of Grocket is getting rid of 4* players only chance to compete with 5* players in PVE. I’m sorry to say but with or without Grocket those players aren’t competing unless the 5* player chooses to or can’t play optimally. Because guess what? They all have Grocket too! Probably a bigger one. So dropping him won’t change the pecking order. 
    It's more the 5-star tier has other options available to them that can help them speed up play by having a deeper roster that most newer rosters don't. The 5-star players lose Grocket, they'll just fall back on another older 5-star in their roster with their heightened damage that will still let them burn through the game faster. A 4-star player doesn't have those options at all times, so hamstringing Grocket hurts their competitive edge to the point it goes from a 45 minute slog back to an hour or more to do four clears, thus way out of the realm of competition. With a Kitty and Grocket, a 4-star player can compete because everyone is playing optimally, and those who aren't in top 50 or higher at certain SCLs are those who aren't playing optimally anymore.
    Also, regardless of competitive optimal play or placement, I just don't want my clears to take way longer again. GRocket/Kitty is faster than anything else I have by miles-- I don't play optimally at all, but I went from basically tapping out at 4 clears and missing out on full progression a lot because I just couldn't be bothered with more grinding to actually not minding that 5th clear that much because the clears didn't take that long anymore.
    Personally, I'd be plenty happy to just lock GRocket out of pvp like someone suggested earlier, haha. But Kitty/GRocket are just such a timesaver in the PvE grind. If they keep expecting us to do 5+ clears every day, I don't want them to take our fastest tools away. That's very much an anti-QoL change.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    spidyjedi84 said:


    I guess what I’m saying is if one had to be nerfed, it should be Grocket, but really they shouldn’t touch either as neither are unbeatable. And I read earlier someone said that getting rid of Grocket is getting rid of 4* players only chance to compete with 5* players in PVE. I’m sorry to say but with or without Grocket those players aren’t competing unless the 5* player chooses to or can’t play optimally. Because guess what? They all have Grocket too! Probably a bigger one. So dropping him won’t change the pecking order. 
    It's more the 5-star tier has other options available to them that can help them speed up play by having a deeper roster that most newer rosters don't. The 5-star players lose Grocket, they'll just fall back on another older 5-star in their roster with their heightened damage that will still let them burn through the game faster. A 4-star player doesn't have those options at all times, so hamstringing Grocket hurts their competitive edge to the point it goes from a 45 minute slog back to an hour or more to do four clears, thus way out of the realm of competition. With a Kitty and Grocket, a 4-star player can compete because everyone is playing optimally, and those who aren't in top 50 or higher at certain SCLs are those who aren't playing optimally anymore.
    I agree that:
    1) He speeds the game up for 4* players and knocks off many real world minutes
    2) His nerf will impact 4* players way more than 5* players with other "speed options".

    I don't agree that:
    1) His nerf will do anything to affect player rankings.

    The fastest players will still be the fastest players.  All 4* players will be slower, but those that play optimally will have the best scores.  Just like before.  Those with 5* rosters will out pace those with 4* rosters, just like before.

    Actually, maybe player rankings below the 5* tier will be more dependent on who is boosted that week.  Which could be kind of cool.  Like, if I happen to have put my iso into Ghost and she's the best boosted option, I get an advantage for a week over other 4* players.  I think that is how the game was intended to work, but Grocket is better than even boosted options in his tier.  People cry "give me a reason to play more of my roster".  Boosting Grocket would do it because I can't think of an "A-Team" better than boosted options.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,189 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    I disagree with pretty much everything Zeofar wrote.

    It's absolutely clear that the problem in Gritty is Kitty's passive. I'll say that because:
    1) The Buff train is uncapped (ie happens every turn forever rather than say max buffing tiles by 200 or 300% regardless of turns required to get there) so tiles can go to infinity esp in wave nodes.
    2) The Buff is an absolute number (which is *very* high near and above champ level) rather than a percentage (say 33% increase per turn which would ramp the tiles up much more slowly on 4* and below characters)
    3) Lastly, and most importantly, lets say I offered a massive Grocket nerf of 90% reduction on his tile strength (7 strength 13 or 28) at L270. This would nerf Grocket into oblivion like Sentry was. But would it fix the Gritty problem? No, because the Buff train is still improving 5 of them by 653 (3000+) a turn at champ levels. It would just delay things by 1 turn.

    Look, Kitty Buff is the problem. It's uncapped and increases by X amount instead of a percentage so that it turns even weak tiles by lower tier characters into killers.

    As far a PvE goes, I'm with NotBAMF. Removing Grocket would make PvE intolerable because the Devs are not going to reduce the clears. My clear time (4 clears) went from over an hour before Grocket to 30 minutes or less with him (that's using GrockMorDusa since I don't have a functional Kitty yet). So we are not talking about saving 10 minutes a day, we are talking an hour or more saved a day when considering 6 or 7 clears. That's significant time.

    And all for what? 4* players like me (<L300 characters) just skip Gritty teams since there is so many others to target. Veteran 5* players (12+ champs with Thorkoye/BSSM) don't find Gritty to be a problem. It's just 5* transition players who only have a few champs and no working Gritty counter at the 5* tier that post endlessly asking for a Nerf (and never to their 5* Kitty who is the problem, always to the tier they are leaving an no longer want to care about). I wonder what % of PvP players Gritty is really a problem for vs the whole of MPQ PvE and PvP players in the 4/5* tiers. I bet it's <5%.

    KGB

    Bottom line is if you take away Grocket, Kitty is good but not meta. She’s upper mid tier probably. And pure support, as she does little to nothing on her own. I play her a ton with Daredevil (more than Grocket actually). That’s probably my favorite team to play right now. It’s very easy to beat because it takes time for the buff train to get going. Rocket takes away the time needed to ramp up because he puts 7 strong strikes on the table from the jump. 

    It's not the strong strike tiles at all that matter. It's just the fact he puts out 4+ strike tiles. Grocket could put out 7 tiles of strength 1 and he'd still be the best partner Kitty ever had because on turn 1 she buffs them by +3000 (5 tiles at 600+ for a champed Kitty).

    In other words, the strength of his tiles doesn't matter in the least (7*170ish = 1200 without another Guardian in Gritty teams) since 1 turn of her Buff increases their value by 2.5 times and by turn 3 when she's added +9000 of value Rockets contribution to that overall total of 10K is only 10%. So all the arguments about his tiles being too strong as a reason to nerf him aren't correct. The only argument is about how many he's allowed to put out.

    I personally hope they don't nerf either one but if they change Grocket because of Kitty then they've forever drawn a line in the sand that says Kittys buff train determines how all future characters can be built because they won't ever be able to have anyone put out 4+ initial strike/attack/protect tiles.

    KGB
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    KGB said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    I disagree with pretty much everything Zeofar wrote.

    It's absolutely clear that the problem in Gritty is Kitty's passive. I'll say that because:
    1) The Buff train is uncapped (ie happens every turn forever rather than say max buffing tiles by 200 or 300% regardless of turns required to get there) so tiles can go to infinity esp in wave nodes.
    2) The Buff is an absolute number (which is *very* high near and above champ level) rather than a percentage (say 33% increase per turn which would ramp the tiles up much more slowly on 4* and below characters)
    3) Lastly, and most importantly, lets say I offered a massive Grocket nerf of 90% reduction on his tile strength (7 strength 13 or 28) at L270. This would nerf Grocket into oblivion like Sentry was. But would it fix the Gritty problem? No, because the Buff train is still improving 5 of them by 653 (3000+) a turn at champ levels. It would just delay things by 1 turn.

    Look, Kitty Buff is the problem. It's uncapped and increases by X amount instead of a percentage so that it turns even weak tiles by lower tier characters into killers.

    As far a PvE goes, I'm with NotBAMF. Removing Grocket would make PvE intolerable because the Devs are not going to reduce the clears. My clear time (4 clears) went from over an hour before Grocket to 30 minutes or less with him (that's using GrockMorDusa since I don't have a functional Kitty yet). So we are not talking about saving 10 minutes a day, we are talking an hour or more saved a day when considering 6 or 7 clears. That's significant time.

    And all for what? 4* players like me (<L300 characters) just skip Gritty teams since there is so many others to target. Veteran 5* players (12+ champs with Thorkoye/BSSM) don't find Gritty to be a problem. It's just 5* transition players who only have a few champs and no working Gritty counter at the 5* tier that post endlessly asking for a Nerf (and never to their 5* Kitty who is the problem, always to the tier they are leaving an no longer want to care about). I wonder what % of PvP players Gritty is really a problem for vs the whole of MPQ PvE and PvP players in the 4/5* tiers. I bet it's <5%.

    KGB

    Bottom line is if you take away Grocket, Kitty is good but not meta. She’s upper mid tier probably. And pure support, as she does little to nothing on her own. I play her a ton with Daredevil (more than Grocket actually). That’s probably my favorite team to play right now. It’s very easy to beat because it takes time for the buff train to get going. Rocket takes away the time needed to ramp up because he puts 7 strong strikes on the table from the jump. 

    It's not the strong strike tiles at all that matter. It's just the fact he puts out 4+ strike tiles. Grocket could put out 7 tiles of strength 1 and he'd still be the best partner Kitty ever had because on turn 1 she buffs them by +3000 (5 tiles at 600+ for a champed Kitty).

    In other words, the strength of his tiles doesn't matter in the least (7*170ish = 1200 without another Guardian in Gritty teams) since 1 turn of her Buff increases their value by 2.5 times and by turn 3 when she's added +9000 of value Rockets contribution to that overall total of 10K is only 10%. So all the arguments about his tiles being too strong as a reason to nerf him aren't correct. The only argument is about how many he's allowed to put out.

    I personally hope they don't nerf either one but if they change Grocket because of Kitty then they've forever drawn a line in the sand that says Kittys buff train determines how all future characters can be built because they won't ever be able to have anyone put out 4+ initial strike/attack/protect tiles.

    KGB
    I agree that the number of tiles on turn 0 is way more important than their strength in the Gritty meta. But let’s not act like Thanos/Grocket hasn’t been one of the fastest PVE clearing teams long before Kitty was a thought in the developer’s minds. If the strength of those tiles was as negligible as you’re suggesting, they wouldn’t have been a meta staple since their debut... but they are. I’ll repeat it again since it was ignored: Grocket without Kitty = Meta; Kitty without Grocket = solid well-designed character. 

    If the hill we’re choosing to die on is that a Grocket nerf means future characters can’t put out 4+ tiles on turn zero, that’s something I can live with personally. We have over 100 characters in the game that don’t do that and function just fine. I trust the developers can be creative enough to continue that trend going forward. They’ve had some very very creative characters recently, so I don’t doubt they are capable of coming up with more cool mechanics in the future. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    How about increasing the number of tiles needed by Kitty to 5 or 6? Then, decrease the numbers by 2 for each X-Men or to 2 tiles needed at 5 covers for 2 X-Men?

    It's a compromise. Kitty still keeps her buffing and R4G is still left untouched.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,189 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    KGB said:
    I disagree with pretty much everything Zeofar wrote.

    It's absolutely clear that the problem in Gritty is Kitty's passive. I'll say that because:
    1) The Buff train is uncapped (ie happens every turn forever rather than say max buffing tiles by 200 or 300% regardless of turns required to get there) so tiles can go to infinity esp in wave nodes.
    2) The Buff is an absolute number (which is *very* high near and above champ level) rather than a percentage (say 33% increase per turn which would ramp the tiles up much more slowly on 4* and below characters)
    3) Lastly, and most importantly, lets say I offered a massive Grocket nerf of 90% reduction on his tile strength (7 strength 13 or 28) at L270. This would nerf Grocket into oblivion like Sentry was. But would it fix the Gritty problem? No, because the Buff train is still improving 5 of them by 653 (3000+) a turn at champ levels. It would just delay things by 1 turn.

    Look, Kitty Buff is the problem. It's uncapped and increases by X amount instead of a percentage so that it turns even weak tiles by lower tier characters into killers.

    As far a PvE goes, I'm with NotBAMF. Removing Grocket would make PvE intolerable because the Devs are not going to reduce the clears. My clear time (4 clears) went from over an hour before Grocket to 30 minutes or less with him (that's using GrockMorDusa since I don't have a functional Kitty yet). So we are not talking about saving 10 minutes a day, we are talking an hour or more saved a day when considering 6 or 7 clears. That's significant time.

    And all for what? 4* players like me (<L300 characters) just skip Gritty teams since there is so many others to target. Veteran 5* players (12+ champs with Thorkoye/BSSM) don't find Gritty to be a problem. It's just 5* transition players who only have a few champs and no working Gritty counter at the 5* tier that post endlessly asking for a Nerf (and never to their 5* Kitty who is the problem, always to the tier they are leaving an no longer want to care about). I wonder what % of PvP players Gritty is really a problem for vs the whole of MPQ PvE and PvP players in the 4/5* tiers. I bet it's <5%.

    KGB

    Bottom line is if you take away Grocket, Kitty is good but not meta. She’s upper mid tier probably. And pure support, as she does little to nothing on her own. I play her a ton with Daredevil (more than Grocket actually). That’s probably my favorite team to play right now. It’s very easy to beat because it takes time for the buff train to get going. Rocket takes away the time needed to ramp up because he puts 7 strong strikes on the table from the jump. 

    It's not the strong strike tiles at all that matter. It's just the fact he puts out 4+ strike tiles. Grocket could put out 7 tiles of strength 1 and he'd still be the best partner Kitty ever had because on turn 1 she buffs them by +3000 (5 tiles at 600+ for a champed Kitty).

    In other words, the strength of his tiles doesn't matter in the least (7*170ish = 1200 without another Guardian in Gritty teams) since 1 turn of her Buff increases their value by 2.5 times and by turn 3 when she's added +9000 of value Rockets contribution to that overall total of 10K is only 10%. So all the arguments about his tiles being too strong as a reason to nerf him aren't correct. The only argument is about how many he's allowed to put out.

    I personally hope they don't nerf either one but if they change Grocket because of Kitty then they've forever drawn a line in the sand that says Kittys buff train determines how all future characters can be built because they won't ever be able to have anyone put out 4+ initial strike/attack/protect tiles.

    KGB
    I agree that the number of tiles on turn 0 is way more important than their strength in the Gritty meta. But let’s not act like Thanos/Grocket hasn’t been one of the fastest PVE clearing teams long before Kitty was a thought in the developer’s minds. If the strength of those tiles was as negligible as you’re suggesting, they wouldn’t have been a meta staple since their debut... but they are. I’ll repeat it again since it was ignored: Grocket without Kitty = Meta; Kitty without Grocket = solid well-designed character. 

    I agree he's absolutely meta in the 4* tier. A top 3 in my mind and certainly in the T10 for any 4* player regardless of whether they use him regularly or not. No argument there at all.

    On the other hand, virtually no one has ever complained about PvE clear times / top PvE teams or else there would be lots of Nerf Thanos Court Death threads.

    A couple of years ago there were plenty of threads about nerfing GrockMorDusa when they were first released and dominating 4* PvP. Now, it's probably been well over a year since anyone has mentioned that team as being an issue in PvP since newer characters have expanded the meta or provided counter possibilities.

    So as painful as it may be to hear for those struggling with Gritty teams, it might just take a year after Kittys release for there to be lots of counter play to Gritty, That would be in approximately 5 more months time.

    KGB
  • nippy
    nippy Posts: 38 Just Dropped In
    edited May 2019
    Are we now catering the game towards 4* players?  when there is counter to gritty team, only ones complaining are those in 4*.  Gritty teams require health packs against other gritty teams, and anyone else.  This is a win/win situation for d3go.  

    Previous nerfs were OP heros that make health packs useless.  I don't see what the problem is?  If you are not in 5*, go start spending some more gold and move to 5* asap.  

    As mentioned previously - I have 1/5/5 since i took a 4 month break, so i wont have gritty team for a long time.  So I have no bone in this debate
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    I read a suggested change to R4G's"Welcome to the Team" which I really liked. I don't know if it was mentioned in here, or elsewhere, and I'm sorry for not being able to credit the original proposer, but I thought it was a great idea and very in-character for Rocket, given that he's a tinkerer.

    Instead of Welcome to the Team spawning 7 Strike tiles (at Rank 5) at the start of the battle, then doing nothing for the rest of the battle, it could go something like this:
    (Passive) At the start of the turn, if one does not exist, create a 1-turn Repeater tile that converts one basic tile into a Strike tile of strength 276 (at level 270) for each non-downed member of the Guardian of the Galaxy on the team.  If 7 (at Rank 5) or more friendly Strike tiles are in play, conversion is suspended.
    The rank/cover upgrades would generate more powerful Strike tiles with more covers, while raising the limit from 3 Strikes at 1 cover to 7 Strikes at 5 covers. Regardless of the number of covers, it would always be a 1-turn repeater.

    Also because Rocket and Groot are both members of the Guardians of the Galaxy, if there are no other members of the Guardians on the team, I think the Repeater should create two Strike tiles per turn, one for Rocket, and one for Groot.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    I dislike repeater tiles a great deal. 5 Loki and 5 CM would both be much better if their powers didn’t rely on repeater tiles that take too long to activate and get matched away half the time. 

    In my opinion any 5 star repeater should be a 1 turn fortified tile with a passive or active component on the same color. 

    Rocket and Groot should be left alone. They have been working just fine. The only thing they do well is drop those strikes. 

  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    I'm not a big fan of Repeater tiles either, especially long-duration repeaters on 5*s. They're supposed to be the gods among men, but they get nerfed by ridiculously long-duration repeaters. That's why if R4G's Yellow was replaced by a Repeater, I'd want it to be a 1-turn counter.

    I doubt they'll change or nerf him anyway. I expect they'll do what they've always done, and in a month or two, they'll nerf Kitty.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes, I think your proposed solution is a lesser of some evils presented here.  I think it would take the legs out from R&G though.

    If they dropped the first two or three strikes at the same time as the repeater, I might be able to get behind that a bit more. 

    I agree though, they will do what they will do. I hate it if it’s Kitty as she is maybe my favorite character, I’d be sad to see her nerfed.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,790 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    I would welcome a grocket nerf. Start at zero strikes and put one out per turn upto x amount on a fortified single turn repeater or passive. 

    That way it’s not mental from turn one and if he goes below 4 for kitty another gets put out.

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