Laeuftbeidir said: wereotter said: Mburn7 said: wereotter said: ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate). I speak from owning both, and I would say Blue Sun's Zenith is hardly the most powerful card in the game. I'd put that at Killer Instinct. I can play BSZ and it gives me a lot of advantage, but that's all. On the other hand, I never have lost a game after getting Killer Instinct in play.Also I find it interesting you support nerfing it because you think it's boring... and from what I'm reading, because you aren't willing to do anything different or creative in events, and just do "stuff my deck full of all the monstrosities" Changing Blue Sun's Zenith won't change your issues if that's how you play as once this is lower in power level, then I would expect you to just play whatever is the next most powerful, and then new threads will pop up calling for those to be nerfed too.If we do the cards one at a time, we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with these cards. There needs to be a large-scale adjustment of cards rather than one at a time. Hmm, I don't find Killer Instinct nearly as powerful as BSZ, since it can't infinitely loop and ends up a net negative on your board (since it kills a creature the turn you play it, and then goes 1 for 1 every turn after that). It is still extremely powerful (and slightly bugged to be even better), but its not on the same level as BSZ, at least not in Standard. Play it right, and you'll end up ahead on creatures, being able to cheat out really high cost creatures for free every turn and end up with massive power in just a turn or two. Perhaps is how I'm playing them, but I don't have a deck set up that loops Blue Sun's Zenith, just use it in a red-blue wizards deck where everything in it costs 12 mana or less, then have to hope to find another copy wither when I cast it or hopefully within a couple turns... Now, make all the cards cost 1-12 mana, add sunbird and include expansion. Boom, you've got it. If you use Brokhan, you can use thunderherd, and the 12cmc creature exploring 1+2 to add higher cost creatures and keep the loop running. It's a one turn insta win.. If it just was an accelerator for decks, it would be fine. A slight balance act could throw it from insane to just very good as accelerator, not key card. Your idea gives a lot of free stuff over several turns - bsz used that way doesn't need any turns
wereotter said: Mburn7 said: wereotter said: ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate). I speak from owning both, and I would say Blue Sun's Zenith is hardly the most powerful card in the game. I'd put that at Killer Instinct. I can play BSZ and it gives me a lot of advantage, but that's all. On the other hand, I never have lost a game after getting Killer Instinct in play.Also I find it interesting you support nerfing it because you think it's boring... and from what I'm reading, because you aren't willing to do anything different or creative in events, and just do "stuff my deck full of all the monstrosities" Changing Blue Sun's Zenith won't change your issues if that's how you play as once this is lower in power level, then I would expect you to just play whatever is the next most powerful, and then new threads will pop up calling for those to be nerfed too.If we do the cards one at a time, we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with these cards. There needs to be a large-scale adjustment of cards rather than one at a time. Hmm, I don't find Killer Instinct nearly as powerful as BSZ, since it can't infinitely loop and ends up a net negative on your board (since it kills a creature the turn you play it, and then goes 1 for 1 every turn after that). It is still extremely powerful (and slightly bugged to be even better), but its not on the same level as BSZ, at least not in Standard. Play it right, and you'll end up ahead on creatures, being able to cheat out really high cost creatures for free every turn and end up with massive power in just a turn or two. Perhaps is how I'm playing them, but I don't have a deck set up that loops Blue Sun's Zenith, just use it in a red-blue wizards deck where everything in it costs 12 mana or less, then have to hope to find another copy wither when I cast it or hopefully within a couple turns...
Mburn7 said: wereotter said: ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate). I speak from owning both, and I would say Blue Sun's Zenith is hardly the most powerful card in the game. I'd put that at Killer Instinct. I can play BSZ and it gives me a lot of advantage, but that's all. On the other hand, I never have lost a game after getting Killer Instinct in play.Also I find it interesting you support nerfing it because you think it's boring... and from what I'm reading, because you aren't willing to do anything different or creative in events, and just do "stuff my deck full of all the monstrosities" Changing Blue Sun's Zenith won't change your issues if that's how you play as once this is lower in power level, then I would expect you to just play whatever is the next most powerful, and then new threads will pop up calling for those to be nerfed too.If we do the cards one at a time, we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with these cards. There needs to be a large-scale adjustment of cards rather than one at a time. Hmm, I don't find Killer Instinct nearly as powerful as BSZ, since it can't infinitely loop and ends up a net negative on your board (since it kills a creature the turn you play it, and then goes 1 for 1 every turn after that). It is still extremely powerful (and slightly bugged to be even better), but its not on the same level as BSZ, at least not in Standard.
wereotter said: ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate). I speak from owning both, and I would say Blue Sun's Zenith is hardly the most powerful card in the game. I'd put that at Killer Instinct. I can play BSZ and it gives me a lot of advantage, but that's all. On the other hand, I never have lost a game after getting Killer Instinct in play.Also I find it interesting you support nerfing it because you think it's boring... and from what I'm reading, because you aren't willing to do anything different or creative in events, and just do "stuff my deck full of all the monstrosities" Changing Blue Sun's Zenith won't change your issues if that's how you play as once this is lower in power level, then I would expect you to just play whatever is the next most powerful, and then new threads will pop up calling for those to be nerfed too.If we do the cards one at a time, we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with these cards. There needs to be a large-scale adjustment of cards rather than one at a time.
ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate).
bken1234 said: I barely even use this card.
Mojo said: I don’t understand why anyone would think it’s an ok card. Every time it is drawn against me the match is over. Whether it endless spells or creatures doesn’t matter. What do people do to stop this?
jimpark said: Laeuftbeidir said: "you don't have to play bsz if you think it's too good" is an argument I am not able to wrap my head around. It's a prisoners dilemma - if you're competitive, there are two reasons not to play it : you don't own it or the node has a spell limitation. I have left the competitive arena a few months back; but, this I can completely understand.Although not completely the same, it is similar to the cycling meta incident. Back then, whether you wanted to play cycling or not, you didn't really have a choice, if you wanted to be competitive. Therefore, I have to acknowledge this is a problem for the competitive coalition PVP meta.
Laeuftbeidir said: "you don't have to play bsz if you think it's too good" is an argument I am not able to wrap my head around. It's a prisoners dilemma - if you're competitive, there are two reasons not to play it : you don't own it or the node has a spell limitation.
jimpark said: ...It takes into account one of the biggest complaints about this game which is burnout or "grindy-ness". Essentially, the game absorbs too much time. Therefore, if we are able to reduce the amount of useless time wasted in this game and provide appropriate rewards for time invested (rewards aren't nearly as relevant, other than being a scale), this nerf wouldn't even be an issue. For instance, if the "visual aid" worked properly, PvE boss health was scaled relative to the power level of cards available for use to achieve the objectives [pauper for a boss with 220 health (BoFT part 2 Node 2.1?).. lets go Yargle! ping him for 9 damage as you get decimated next turn by Slaughter the Strong], PvP events had less overall games to be played OR the rewards were adjusted to reflect the actual amount of time invested, significantly reduced loading times, seamless transition of battle start and end sequences (i.e. the waiting for check marks for objectives, card XP list, player XP overview), etc...
jimpark said: ... Look I am not saying BSZ shouldn't be nerfed here; though, I do not necessarily agree with it as of right now. And by not agree, don't assume that I don't understand the broken-ness of BSZ and that it doesn't need a nerf. What I mean is I am unsure of the timing and the true benefits of the nerf...
ZW2007- said: wereotter said: ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate). I speak from owning both, and I would say Blue Sun's Zenith is hardly the most powerful card in the game. I'd put that at Killer Instinct. I can play BSZ and it gives me a lot of advantage, but that's all. On the other hand, I never have lost a game after getting Killer Instinct in play.Also I find it interesting you support nerfing it because you think it's boring... and from what I'm reading, because you aren't willing to do anything different or creative in events, and just do "stuff my deck full of all the monstrosities" Changing Blue Sun's Zenith won't change your issues if that's how you play as once this is lower in power level, then I would expect you to just play whatever is the next most powerful, and then new threads will pop up calling for those to be nerfed too.If we do the cards one at a time, we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with these cards. There needs to be a large-scale adjustment of cards rather than one at a time. If I cast Blue Sun's Zenith and pass the turn, I did something wrong or was unlucky and will probably win the next turn anyway. If I cast Killer Instinct and pass the turn, nothing happens and I get a free creature next turn. Those two cards aren't even close in the spectrum of power and KI is a very powerful card. I don't call for cards to be nerfed because they are good. I do it when they are too good and warp the meta. BSZ doesn't need a large-scale adjustment of other cards, it needs to be brought in line with what all the other powerful cards are capable of doing. KI can get me ONE free creature each turn, which I will lose at the end of said turn unless I'm also casting additional creatures each turn or pumping out tokens. Of course Garruk or Saheeli or N4 can take good advantage of KI but any blue planeswalker can make a broken deck with BSZ. I can win in a few turns and make all objectives with BSZ, regardless of the objectives (unless I'm not supposed to play with cards costing 10 or fewer mana.) One card shouldn't rule them all. When a card like Emrakul warps a format, WotC bans it in that format. Here, they have the ability to just change the card to make it less format-warping. wereotter said: Mburn7 said: wereotter said: ZW2007- said: The easiest way to start rebalancing all overpowered cards is to start with the most overpowered card. Once upon a time it was Omniscience, which needed to be nerfed and never was. Now it is BSZ which needs to be nerfed and won't be. I've owned both for a very long time and advocated for Omni to be nerfed a very long time ago.Pointing to bugs and saying we shouldn't discuss game balance is nonsense. That's like saying WotC needs to solve the issue of foil cards warping before they bother with balancing a new set. Different guys do different jobs. I highly doubt that the person in charge of game design is the same person that is building code and fixing bugs.The existence of this card isn't a threat to me, it makes my enjoyment of the game lower because it is boring to jam the same shell into every single deck I make. The goal is to win games, which I typically do. The best way to ensure I continue winning games is to continue using the most broken cards I own. In events where rewards or losses are meaningless, I run more fun and experimental decks. In the competitive weekend coalition events, I stick to boring BSZ combo monstrosities that just win. Hardly the exciting game play I want for a game I love (to hate). I speak from owning both, and I would say Blue Sun's Zenith is hardly the most powerful card in the game. I'd put that at Killer Instinct. I can play BSZ and it gives me a lot of advantage, but that's all. On the other hand, I never have lost a game after getting Killer Instinct in play.Also I find it interesting you support nerfing it because you think it's boring... and from what I'm reading, because you aren't willing to do anything different or creative in events, and just do "stuff my deck full of all the monstrosities" Changing Blue Sun's Zenith won't change your issues if that's how you play as once this is lower in power level, then I would expect you to just play whatever is the next most powerful, and then new threads will pop up calling for those to be nerfed too.If we do the cards one at a time, we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with these cards. There needs to be a large-scale adjustment of cards rather than one at a time. Hmm, I don't find Killer Instinct nearly as powerful as BSZ, since it can't infinitely loop and ends up a net negative on your board (since it kills a creature the turn you play it, and then goes 1 for 1 every turn after that). It is still extremely powerful (and slightly bugged to be even better), but its not on the same level as BSZ, at least not in Standard. Play it right, and you'll end up ahead on creatures, being able to cheat out really high cost creatures for free every turn and end up with massive power in just a turn or two. Perhaps is how I'm playing them, but I don't have a deck set up that loops Blue Sun's Zenith, just use it in a red-blue wizards deck where everything in it costs 12 mana or less, then have to hope to find another copy wither when I cast it or hopefully within a couple turns... I could say the same thing about BSZ, play it right and you'll see why it's the single most powerful card in the game.
wereotter said: I think this is where I would still point the finger, not at Blue Sun's Zenith, but their inability to properly balance multi-color planeswalkers. People have pointed to using Sarkhan as a way to loop gem converters and Sunbird's Invocation to take infinitely long turns and win in a single turn (to which I would argue that Blue Sun's Zenith could be replaced with another card draw spell and the deck would still function as it currently does)Playing a mono color planeswalker should give you the advantage of speed, playing two colors you should sacrifice a little speed for a bit more power. Playing three colors should put you at a massive tempo disadvantage, and I still say that a three color planeswalker should be prohibited from using cards not in their color identity (not that it would solve this specific problem, but it is a problem more generally. I don't want to see Sarkhan casting Trostani or see Bolas casting Muldrotha.)I think pointing the finger at one card and saying that's the problem is really overlooking the larger problems with the game as a whole, and I don't think they can be fixed by changing one card when changing this one card won't solve many of the other problems the game has.
Theros said: I don't think the issue is with PWs either. Reducing the color bonus on PWs just for being multi colored is not only unfair but would also make the game too slow and said PWs unplayable. A look at Sarlhan 1 and Ajani 1&2 should are prime example. The Eldrazi Desolation PW is another example of a pretty useless PW.The way PWs are, its much better to have the maximum bonus on one color have it spread on others. For instance a PW with +4 on 2 color is superior to a PW with +2 on 4 colors regardless of color access and abilities. Karn would be useless if caped at +2 for instance.This games drives on mana and high color bonuses are critical which is partly why people may love bsz and other cards that make casting easier. Poor mana bonuses are reasons why origin and early pws are not played.The hate for blue is somewhat out of proportion. Other colors will eventually catch up as more sets are released.Blue was not always that dominant if you recall the early days; each color had its prime.Initially Red was the strongest in the early days with Chandra until she way eventually nerfed. Old Chandra was more cascading for cheap and therefore stronger than current Koth.With pws nerfs and added cards, Green became the next powerhouse.Another contender was White since the release of Eldritch Moon expansion. The color was short-lived when standard rotation was implemented.Blue was not as strong as Green and White in the old days.Since standard rotation, Blue still did not reign supreme that long compared to green and white. People make it look like Octagon loves Blue more than anything else.With time other colors with catch up. May be the next hate will be red.Currently the weakest color is white.
andrewvanmarle said: True, but i'm getting a bit fed up with this behavior of going on and on and on and on untill that person gets what he wants. It's (to me) not about the actual contents of the request , it's about trying to just bluntforce the devs into submission. (and flooding the forum with it)
Aeroplane said: Nice results.. Looks like we can stop kicking at this dead horse.
Dkrone said: I want to know how many of you that said yes actually have the card. Do you find yourself saying “this card is making my deck too good, I sure wish it was weaker.” Or are you just whining because you don’t have it? Save your pinks or just wait a few months and it’ll be out of standard.I think the rest of us who took the time to save and get it would feel gypped if they nerfed it now, I would anyway.
Dkrone said: I just don’t get it. I play this game daily and I may lose strictly because of BSZ once a day, probably not even that much. You make it seem like the entire game is busted and that every deck is using it, and using it well. That’s not my experience. I’m platinum so it’s not like I’m playing with folks who don’t have the card. Maybe people just don’t like losing. The *game* is to figure out how to beat someone who uses it (or any good cards), not complain to dev that there is a mean ol’ card out there. Sphinx’s Decree, discard spells, whatever...there are ways around it.
Dkrone said: “I don’t like using it so no one should be able to”? Come on, you can build winning decks without it. All of this talk about how it hurts the game and everyone uses it is junk. All I hear is “I’m losing games waaah”, so what. Don’t act like you guys are all about the purity of the game, you want to win every game and it bothers you when you don’t. The real issue that needs to be addressed is the crashes. That does actually impact everyone.
wereotter said:Revamp all the over powered cards and reassess all planeswlkers skills, mana bonuses, and health totals, and I'll get on board with including Blue Sun's Zenith in that group. Leave all the other cards as-is, and I saw leave this one too.
Azerack said: Extra: Just a few mins ago, had a Bolas vs. Bolas in Rising Tensions, we both had BSZ in our decks, which I thought was funny right after I posted this comment. I still managed to win. Just saying, it's not an instant-win card.
wereotter said:As with many cards, I will state that it is not just the card, but it's also what people are doing with it. I don't want to be a jerk player with degenerate decks that go infinite in the AI's hands, I want to build something fun and synergistic in a different type of way, and I don't care for it to go infinite (I realized how boring that was with how Baral was released) and am not trying to grief other players. I've seen that Sarkhan deck, I tried it out, I found it really boring to play, and now don't use it.
wereotter said:I think pointing the finger at one card and saying that's the problem is really overlooking the larger problems with the game as a whole, and I don't think they can be fixed by changing one card when changing this one card won't solve many of the other problems the game has.
Theros said: I want to change my vote to I don't care. Why bother after 3.4?
starfall said: My prediction is something equally as broken will pop in in WAR, in order to encourage people to sign up to the new subscription service. Maybe multiple somethings.
Mburn7 said: starfall said: My prediction is something equally as broken will pop in in WAR, in order to encourage people to sign up to the new subscription service. Maybe multiple somethings. Oh yeah. Olivia 2.0 is on the horizon.