Lets do some card balancing!

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    edited April 2019
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    starfall said:
    jimpark said:
    I don't like nerfs.. well, most nerfs. I am against nerfs as the first order of things to be done. Honestly I don't understand why buffs can't be implemented first.

    There are a large magnitude of horrendously underwhelming cards amongst a sea of mediocre cards.

    If the power level of some cards were increased, perhaps it would open up more options. I am not suggesting we start creating BSZ magnitude cards; but, if the meta was more concentrated with good, higher performing cards, it could open up the meta a bit more than the aforementioned "broken meta warping" deck styles.

    And wouldn't it help the "these cards are both great.. oh, I don't know which card would be better!" vs "well, this card is a guaranteed pick for my deck" situation as well?
    The thing about buffing all the commons is that it doesn't change the game at all for anyone who has a handful of decent rares to play with... and that's most players of the game. Believe me, it irritates the hell out of me that with every set we get swathes of new unplayable commons and uncommons, but balancing these cards well would take time and not change the experience of the game substantially for the majority of players, so Oktagon won't do it. As things stand, they can put a bare minimum of work into producing the majority of each set and get away with it, and so they'll continue to do so.

    And, again, buffing mediocre cards to a level below BSZ to any significant degree just creates cards that we won't play with when we can play with BSZ, and as such it's not worth Oktagon's time to do. Here's a player from just this week noting that he really doesn't see a lot of people playing SOI powerhouse Behold the Beyond:
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/872459/#Comment_872459
    TL:DR - see bold

    We would be buffing a numerous number of cards at all rarities, not just commons/uncommons. As a result, some cards will go from utterly useless to less than average, some will go from borderline usable to medium-frequency usable, some will go from mediocre to strong, and still others will go from mediocre to powerful. This will "flood" the current standard market with more useful cards. This flood will cause more card choices when building decks. Currently, it feels like there are specific staple cards when building a deck. It's not that there aren't other choices; it's that there aren't enough good choices competing against one another.

    Additionally, these buffs will spur the discovery of new card combinations. Hopefully, the new card combos will generate a more varied competitive deck market; as opposed to the constant domination by a small number of decks. The meta will start to be shaken and maybe even shift. And regardless of the existence of BSZ, it is something that is direly needed to diversify the meta.

    Furthermore, an environment more nurturing to the BSZ nerf could be created. This aspect is significantly more complex, as it entails a number of different things outside of mere card buffs and nerfs. It takes into account one of the biggest complaints about this game which is burnout or "grindy-ness". Essentially, the game absorbs too much time. Therefore, if we are able to reduce the amount of useless time wasted in this game and provide appropriate rewards for time invested (rewards aren't nearly as relevant, other than being a scale), this nerf wouldn't even be an issue. For instance, if the "visual aid" worked properly, PvE boss health was scaled relative to the power level of cards available for use to achieve the objectives [pauper for a boss with 220 health (BoFT part 2 Node 2.1?).. lets go Yargle! ping him for 9 damage as you get decimated next turn by Slaughter the Strong], PvP events had less overall games to be played OR the rewards were adjusted to reflect the actual amount of time invested, significantly reduced loading times, seamless transition of battle start and end sequences (i.e. the waiting for check marks for objectives, card XP list, player XP overview), etc. (Side rant: I don't want to play AWR 2.3 Void? for 20 minutes of boredom for the absurdly high Nth time! 1 game that takes 15-20 mintues + all other games that have to be played for that event... mmmm deliciously barf-worthy). Moreover, providing buffs in addition to a nerf is always better than providing just a nerf. Why? its better accepted usually. After all, what do you feel would be better accepted: 1) nerf 2) buff 3) buff + nerf? And this becomes particularly important when a new set dropped with a really low number of strong chase cards.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
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    Laeuftbeidir said:
    "you don't have to play bsz if you think it's too good" is an argument I am not able to wrap my head around. It's a prisoners dilemma - if you're competitive, there are two reasons not to play it : you don't own it or the node has a spell limitation.
    I have left the competitive arena a few months back; but, this I can completely understand.

    Although not completely the same, it is similar to the cycling meta incident. Back then, whether you wanted to play cycling or not, you didn't really have a choice, if you wanted to be competitive. Therefore, I have to acknowledge this is a problem for the competitive coalition PVP meta.
  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
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    For those that say “leave Legacy alone it’s already broken”. I have ask why not bring back cycling.  The most serious nerf ever.  Because HUF/Deploy, Omni, crazy green ramp, etc are all okay.  But somehow cycling is too broken?
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Huf deploy, u/g ramp loop (be it rashmi, Baral or prism), omni shenanigans and sunbird bsz are all around at the same level of brokenness. Cycling was even more brutally effective, but one sided - the ai couldn't use it. So it was a meta of guaranteed wins without having cards of higher rarities. It was either Nerfing cycling or teaching Greg how to use it - and would anyone want to sit through that kind of loop? That likely doesn't even trigger the LPS, thus being buffed again?

    The problems a lot of players had when it rotated proved the voices telling that it should have never been implemented that way right.
    I liked the balancing act. It's still extremly powerful, by the way, I tried it.

    I just didn't like that they didn't take the time to change the card descriptions. 

    But.. You're not wrong. It shouldn't stop at cycling, but the other well known loops should get the same treatment.
  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
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    Greg is mostly unable to use BSZ as well.  Occasionally he’ll get a lucky hand with nothing but spells but usually he spends 16 mana to get one 10 mana card
  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
    edited April 2019
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     Try playing with only the last 2 sets. You'll see that lockets and gates are the only really mana gain.There is no good mana gain cards in rare, mythic, or masterpiece. I could be wrong , but Circuitous Route is the highest gem converter at 6 with Knight of the White Orchid.

     A lot of people will go through mana rehab and I can see heavy removal decks with a Bolas 1 revival with Lavinia a must have to lock decks down even further. The Battle of 4 tribes will be eating everyone up for breakfast. 

    Unless the next 2 sets bring some gem or mana converters ,the game will become a much slower pace on top of the numerous bugs/freezes that are on the rise, on top of the slow loading times and lengthy coalition events.

    Personally, cards like BSZ, StV, Scapeshift, Rupture and all the other supports like Legion's Landing and Search for Azcanta will be missed. The gem converters in the last 2 sets are so vanilla, boring and unimaginative.

    Last will be how much time do people have to defeat a 400-hp boss navigating through all the bugs. Would you rather play a sped up deck where you almost win at 10 mins or slog through 30-40 mins only to lose or freeze up. Let's face it that this game's stability has only gotten worse as from my coalition members stating that they might take a break.

    The only solution I can think of is that a card that is too powerful becomes changed to a masterpiece and can be used in any event except PvP where masterpieces can not be used. The new changes to PvE are more challenging even with these hot topic cards.





  • Gilesclone
    Gilesclone Posts: 735 Critical Contributor
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    I suspect the events associated with the sets rotating out will go to Legacy.  So far there aren’t any coalition events in the last two sets so maybe not.
  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
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    starfall said:
    Aeroplane said:

    Last will be how much time do people have to defeat a 400-hp boss navigating through all the bugs. Would you rather play a sped up deck where you almost win at 10 mins or slog through 30-40 mins only to lose or freeze up. Let's face it that this game's stability has only gotten worse as from my coalition members stating that they might take a break.

    Obviously, if they changed the cards we have to work with, they'd have to change the challenges they set us as well.

    If they cut the power level of the top tier of cards, then they'd have to correspondingly cut the difficulty of the hardest PvE levels. With a bit of luck, this would mean no more 30 minute laggy slogs through levels filled with energize gems.
    We are lucky to get 1 or 2 updates between sets even if there are numerous fixes needing to be made. Naru , a one cast card loop in standard, is still in play with no info. on an update.

    They'll just ride these cards into legacy which is fine by me.

     So far playing around with the last 2 sets and origins, Surveil and jump start will come into their own while Adapt and Riot need some more cards. I have a feeling that the next 2 sets will contain some powerful cards for an engine. Anyways, we'll see.
  • Tengu316
    Tengu316 Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
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    nerdstrap said:
    Any talk of balance has to keep in mind that this game is Magic: The Gathering inspired and not Magic: The Gathering. It should be QUICK. If a match takes longer than 5 minutes, I am instantly annoyed no matter the outcome.

    A match 3 gem game is, at its core, a game of combos and cascades into OVERWHELMING outcomes! Sometimes, the overwhelming outcomes are negative, but a majority of times, the super comboriffic events inspire joy and create long term investment (going on 3 years here).

    I concur completely! Every match-three game I've played has a pendulum swing that is just unreal: equipment gets major buffs, damage gets multiplied into insta-death off of two cascades, etc. BUT the game is over in a handful of minutes and not half-hour-plus. Even the timer doesn't affect that when you have a meta heavily inspired by control.

    If there's an imbalance, don't nerf; buff! Let the power creep as it needs to (then, hopefully, learn a lesson and create more balanced cards/walkers in the future).
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    starfall said:
    Did anyone play this game at the beginning, when only Origins existed? Remember how there were no combos? Remember how you alternated turns with your opponent?

    Remind me, did the game die then?
    Nah, I started in Zendikar but the game played pretty much like that then too.  I remember saving up to my ult with Nissa one match at a time and still having plenty of match leftover after I used it.  Good times.

    (this is why we have been asking for set-specific events.  Nostalgia is nice)
  • soultwist
    soultwist Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
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    How come Rising Tensions only costs 20 mana crystals?  It would be a bargain at 40?   (am I doing this thread right?)
  • Outersider
    Outersider Posts: 119 Tile Toppler
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    BSZ is truly the card that needs a nerf. The others I honestly don't encounter much. but BSZ is too damn powerful once it's played then 90% of the time the game is over. Yes it is beatable but usually only by pure luck. In training games If it's played I just quit and go on to the next game as its a waste of my time to continue. I think reducing it to 6 is actually a perfect solution.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Outersider said:
    BSZ is truly the card that needs a nerf. The others I honestly don't encounter much. but BSZ is too damn powerful once it's played then 90% of the time the game is over. Yes it is beatable but usually only by pure luck. In training games If it's played I just quit and go on to the next game as its a waste of my time to continue. I think reducing it to 6 is actually a perfect solution.
    Finally, someone using this thread for what I wanted.  Discussing how to fix certain problem cards.
    (also thank you for thinking my idea is good)
  • soultwist
    soultwist Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
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    starfall said:
    soultwist said:
    How come Rising Tensions only costs 20 mana crystals?  It would be a bargain at 40?   (am I doing this thread right?)
    Are you suggesting that the last few posts have been irrelevant? Let me make explicit why they aren't:

    We've been seeing comments like this throughout this thread:

    Aeroplane said:

    People would spend less money not having to chase these good cards.
    Theros said:

    Nerfing will actually cause more harm to the community so its best to late it rotate out.
    The implication is that the game will suffer as a result of nerfing, or even just from being balanced in the first place.

    The history of the game is evidence that the opposite is the case.
    No, that comment wasn't directed at you, but more just the angst that nobody can have nice things if i cant have them.  I'm actually guessing most in the thread have all of them and are the exception, I bet there are a lot of people that have only a couple of them and lean on them to have a chance.

    If anything its like your point about how the game used to be, you couldn't get every card so any good ones you got were kinda special to you and from that perspective any Nerf hurts.

    I actually only have about half of the ones originally listed and I honestly don't even use them very much.  Etali is super fun but I've been using Sarkan on red.  BB will get used this weekend, I'm excited for that!  RGP!!!  I'll pull Naru out for an event that has the right secondary objectives.  StV is pretty great with Tezz2 so i do use that one quite a bit.  I have path but I don't even know if I've used it enough to master it.

    I don't have BSZ but I'm certainly hoping to get it.  

    There are no cards in here I'm fearful of Greg having.

    Also, if we are going to tune cards down maybe we can do a 1:1 and fix some?  Any mythic and masterpieces that dont get any play should be evaluated for sure.  

    Also I was playing TotP and that made me question life in general.  I guess I am just rambling and don't really have a point, but I did want to point out that this wasn't directed at anyone.

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