Lets do some card balancing!

Gilesclone

I think BSZ actually makes the games last longer.  Waiting fo all the loops to finish takes longer than just playing the turns normally.  I had a single turn last over 30 minutes this morning.  Without BSZ I probably could have finished the entire game in less than 10.

bobby_2613

Gilesclone said:

I think BSZ actually makes the games last longer.  Waiting fo all the loops to finish takes longer than just playing the turns normally.  I had a single turn last over 30 minutes this morning.  Without BSZ I probably could have finished the entire game in less than 10.

See?  Don't play that evil card Giles! 

Gilesclone

My point being, changing the max X on BSZ to 6 probably won’t slow the game down and it might even make it faster.

Mburn7

starfall said:

Gilesclone said:

My point being, changing the max X on BSZ to 6 probably won’t slow the game down and it might even make it faster.

Behold the Beyond is a broken card.

Is it?  I rarely see it used outside Ob decks and the occasional control (since there are a lot of legacy kill/discard spells for <6 mana), and as far as I know there aren't any busted loop/combos with it.  

But besides that point, making BSZ into a slightly worse version of BtB is kind of what I was going for.  Its a masterpiece; it should be powerful.  But if you cap the mana at 8 you prevent a lot of the loops you would use it for, which is really all we can ask for at this point.

Matthew

Mburn7 said:

starfall said:

Gilesclone said:

My point being, changing the max X on BSZ to 6 probably won’t slow the game down and it might even make it faster.

Behold the Beyond is a broken card.

Is it?  I rarely see it used outside Ob decks and the occasional control (since there are a lot of legacy kill/discard spells for <6 mana), and as far as I know there aren't any busted loop/combos with it.  

But besides that point, making BSZ into a slightly worse version of BtB is kind of what I was going for.  Its a masterpiece; it should be powerful.  But if you cap the mana at 8 you prevent a lot of the loops you would use it for, which is really all we can ask for at this point.

Just because you haven't seen or figured something out for yourself doesn't mean that it's not possible. Before yesterday, I'd never have thought it possible to make good use of Orzhov Pontiff, but it turns out I was wrong in at least one way. Now, Pontiff is a terrible card in its own right, and alongside BtB, it might as well never see use. Regardless, the point is that it turns out there was a niche use for it.

BtB has literally none of the limited usefulness that Pontiff has. It's got incredibly broad utility. It costs you 15 mana, and you get 6 cards and 36 mana. Just ask yourself if there are any cards for 6 or less mana that can do any of the following:

• Give you more mana
• Convert half the board
• Make a card free
• Reduce the mana cost of another card, or a type or category of cards
• Allow you to filter what your next draw will be
• Draw/Fetch another card and give that card mana
• Draw more than one card
• Any combination of the above
• Deal damage based on the number of spells in your graveyard (ok, I held your hand on that one, I'm sorry for condescending)

When you have a card that can enable up to 6 different possibilities from this list, you have a broken card.

I think your own confirmation bias is getting in the way of the truth here. Just because you don't see the card that often doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Furthermore, that does not mean that there isn't a list of ridiculous things the card is capable of doing, or that it can make possible. Personally, I have about 4 or 5 different decks that rely on BtB as part of the engine.

I think @starfall is right: what is more likely the case here is that as ridiculous as BtB is, BSZ is literally at least twice as bad, if not more, and therefore BtB logically suffers by comparison. That does not make it any less broken than it is though.

Theros

Tremayne said:

Theros said:

...
The dailies are extremely grindy especially with the addition of 2 TGs. Despite all them BSZ, deploy and what have you, many can't keep up with dailies. To make it easier, I have been ignoring TGS altogether. We have our hands full with ToTps and RT alone.
...

You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?

 If I was starting out in MTGPQ, I think I would be happy to be able to play two TG’s a day and totally ignore TOTP and possibly RT.

Based on the thread bellow, many find the current environment grindy
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/864112#Comment_864112

Player burnout is real regardless of any game. choice overload is also real. Given too many options, players end up choosing none, get fatigued and left unhappy. This is what actually happened with the addition of 2 TGs. You would expect many would rush to complete TGs for extra crystals. On the contrary, I'm hearing from many who are no longer committed to TGs as they used to.

BSZ is a powerful card but a necessary evil. Moreover, there is no proof that BSZ and the like are making players leave the game. Nerfing will actually cause more harm to the community so its best to late it rotate out. It will be out next rotation around the corner. Baral was more aggravating

Do you guys remember that cycling was worst. With cycling, perfect scores and secondaries were almost guaranteed and the rankings where heavily skewed. This is not the case with BSZ. It is not an I win button like some make it to be. 

Brakkis

BSZ isn't rotating until early 2020. So we're just supposed to ignore how broken it is for the remainder of the year?

The card is supposed to function as a draw card only. They went and made it give 72 mana across 6 cards. That's not okay.

[Deleted User]

I don't like nerfs.. well, most nerfs. I am against nerfs as the first order of things to be done. Honestly I don't understand why buffs can't be implemented first.

There are a large magnitude of horrendously underwhelming cards amongst a sea of mediocre cards.

If the power level of some cards were increased, perhaps it would open up more options. I am not suggesting we start creating BSZ magnitude cards; but, if the meta was more concentrated with good, higher performing cards, it could open up the meta a bit more than the aforementioned "broken meta warping" deck styles.

And wouldn't it help the "these cards are both great.. oh, I don't know which card would be better!" vs "well, this card is a guaranteed pick for my deck" situation as well?

Look I am not saying BSZ shouldn't be nerfed here; though, I do not necessarily agree with it as of right now. And by not agree, don't assume that I don't understand the broken-ness of BSZ and that it doesn't need a nerf. What I mean is I am unsure of the timing and the true benefits of the nerf. Clearly, I need to make this point every single time i post now before I get barraged with hate comments.

[Deleted User]

EDIT:

added TL;DR - see bold

fixed some grammatical nonsense, tried to make things more concise.. and then failed, rearranged some sentence flow, and added a bit more content (not really more important).

I am seeing a lot of things along these lines and here are my thoughts - not attacks! If they possibly are in any way come off as attacks, I apologize in advance; but, as always, never my intent

"I find a challenging game to be much more fun than an easy one" - Mburn

Yes, I agree with this sentiment. However, this does not apply to everyone. More importantly, it doesn't apply to every single moment of my life in this game. There are times I want to get repetitive stuff done with quickly; so that I can spend more time on the things I enjoy in the game. A crude example would be playing my TotPs games quickly so that I can brew fun decks in TG (I used this example because if I said TG, people would provide the rebuttal "you don't have to grind the 10 TG crystals, its not worth it, yada yada").

"When there are a couple easy-win cards floating around it makes the game less enjoyable for everyone, since it removes creativity from deckbuilding" - Mburn

Although I can agree with this sentiment; I believe this is completely relative to the individual. There are certainly people who like these "easy-win" cards/decks and enjoy that quick kill. The challenge was in building the right deck to get that super safe, fast, efficient kill deck, which can be argued required some creativity. Furthermore, the game being less enjoyable for everyone because of "easy-win" cards/decks is also relative. The situational requirements for a combo deck to actually combo off in the AIs hands is usually very low, aside from a handful of almost fully automated decks like Kiora gem conversion, ID low cost spells, Sunbird derivatives, and now "Naru-plicate." But even these decks are not always 100% guaranteed to hit off in the AIs hands. Moreover, there could possibly be a group of players who prefer these decks as challenges to play against.

"And as I have been saying for a while, if spending an hour or two a day on a mobile game is so horrible, maybe you shouldn't be playing that game.  If it isn't enjoyable to you, why bother?" - Mburn

Although I can follow the logic and understand your point of view; this is a very narrow viewpoint. Perhaps there are people (doctors, nurses, project managers, business owners, etc) with more demanding real lives (careers, family, etc) to address? Perhaps they do want to play the game, but their real life doesn't allow it? Perhaps they enjoy a different aspect of the game from what conventional people/players like? Perhaps they enjoy breaking the game; but, there isn't anything to break anymore so they are grinding for a future card to break? The possible circumstances and motives are endless; but ultimately, people have different circumstances which needs to be accounted for.

If we all don't have careers; school; families; hobbies; homes to take care of; the need to eat, sleep, shower... then fine load the game up with all kinds of time consuming stuff! However, this is not the case.

For instance, a particular player really enjoys the game but due to working 10-12 hours a day for a new project is unable to muster but less than 1 hour a day for this game? Yet, they still want to get some new cards to play with in the future. This requires them to grind, as they are bombarded with time-wasting little nuisances. But the problem repeats: don't have much time to grind... but need new cards to play fun new things.. and round and round we go.

"You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?" - Tremayne

Yes, I do. However, this is a question that can be asked from any point of view. I could ask you the same, "You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?" And I would be asking you this same question from the opposite perspective since I feel that you are not acknowledging these "other players'" opinions.

"If I was starting out in MTGPQ, I think I would be happy to be able to play two TG’s a day and totally ignore TOTP and possibly RT." -Tremayne

Yes, I agree. This is a true statement in general. If I was new and just starting out, I would be happy to play two TGs because I wouldn't stand a chance in TotPs. Additionally, the two TGs provide free crystals to help me get better cards/PWs; whereas, TotPs costs me resources.

Also, my games would be significantly longer than a veteran player, as I would be using handicapped cards like 2/2s for 12 mana. However, I am certain that these new players are striving for stronger, better cards to kill faster and more efficiently... so now, as a veteran player, I don't want to play handicapped 2/2s for 12 mana because I already played and collected cards for the purpose of NOT having to go back to that.

Think of it this way, in an RPG, I have:

1) lvl1 stick,

2) lvl 5 hammer

I want to go farm some EXP/loot/resources... I am NOT going to use the lvl1 stick when I have a lvl5 hammer to grind the same area over and over again. Translation: I am not going to use orchard spirit when I have woodland colossus in order to grind TG over and over again.

"For example, I don't have... any of the cards mentioned in this thread, and I have absolutely no problem knocking out both TGs and RT in a day." - OmegaLolrus

Yes, I agree. Many of us have no problem knocking out both TG and RT in a day. The real question is, do I have the time? Perhaps your schedule allows you to; however, this does not address the multitude of people who play this game and their many different schedules/life events.

Additionally, it is not a matter of being able to do it. It's a matter of: is the time invested worth it or can I do it in an amount of time that I feel is worth it. This scale is different for everyone. A person who works as a lawyer isn't going to be happy with working 8 hours and getting paid minimum wage, no? Just the same way, I am a veteran player who isn't happy playing TG for 30mins (even 15mins) to get 10 crystals - its not efficient or worth it. I'd rather spend 30 mins on TotPs to get pinkies.. so on and so forth, does the logic go.

Another way to think of it is: A person rides a taxi for $20 to save 30 mins of time when they make $40 in 30 mins (their job). By riding this taxi, they have saved 30 mins, which could be used to make $40. Then minus the $20 taxi ride; they net $20. However, another person may think that it's a waste because that extra 30 mins saved isn't going to be used for work anyways. Ultimately, the situation/circumstances will influence the final outcome. The person with a ton of time on their hands may not ride the taxi; whereas, the person without a ton of time will put more value on the taxi ride. Translation: The player with a ton of time will play all the events and feel it was worth the time; whereas, the player without a ton of time will put more emphasis on finding ways to save time in the game.

"I simply can’t understand why anyone wants to complain about there is something to play in the  app." - Tremayne

I agree. But there are people with OCD and other personality traits (completionism/perfectionism) that may make it harder for them in real life. And don't you recall an instance where you just needed 15 more crystals to get that extra prem pack or PW but you just didn't grind that one day.. well, there are people that try to avoid that sense of loss or regret (even if they don't have any personality traits).

Despite those aforementioned people, I don't believe it's about having something to play as much as it is the comparative amount of time this game absorbs in relation to the rewards ("valuetown/efficiency"). We all know that laid-back game, where you just need to login and complete like 10 mins worth of play and you are done for the day! I can go do fun things in the game now - Yippee! MTGPQ.. not the case on so many different levels.. its absurd.

Additionally, maybe it's about what they want to play? Some people want to play fun cool decks; but when you have time constraints, you work on the important things that must be done first. Its like a task/priority list. Step 1. finish all dailies. Step 2. play fun stuff I enjoy. And just maybe in the past they tried doing Step 2 first but found that it sometimes caused them to not be able to finish the "grind" for rewards because it took too long and they just simply didn't have the time.

I just went though the comments in chronological order and got this far. I'm sure there are more I could write but I'll end here for today.

You guys make good points and I understand what you guys want. I also understand the need for it. But, why is the reverse side not being understood as well? People want to be understood and acknowledged not shunned as wrong. So let us all hold hands.. and open our hearts.. i mean.. points of view! Okay, maybe not the holding hands part unless you like profusely clammy hands

[Deleted User]

As for a nerf suggestion to BSZ, how about we start smaller.

Instead, of giving stored mana (10) + 2, why not stored mana(10) - 2

This maintains the same "10 stored mana" theme among the cards while nerfing it. Then if that doesn't work and its still a "plague," we can consider another nerf.

P.S. I actually think there is a good nerf recommended by someone else but I will withhold that for now as I am a little worried that, that nerf is borderline make or break for a MP status card.

EDIT:
Here are some other BSZ nerfs

1. Remove the +2 mana part (thus, 10 mana to all cards as opposed to 12)

2. Change card draw to: half of stored mana 
**not much of a change. Probably better if it was limited to 4 cards drawn, i.e. stored mana -6 cards drawn

3. Change +2 mana to -2 mana (thus 8 mana to all cards as opposed to 12)
**proposed above

4. Combination of number 1 and 2

I highly recommend/urge the least impactful nerf first and then renerf as necessary. Otherwise, we may unintentionally create a MP paperweight. 

Theros

jimpark said:

I am seeing a lot of things along these lines and here are my thoughts - not attacks! If they possibly are in any way come off as attacks, I apologize in advance; but, as always, never my intent

"I find a challenging game to be much more fun than an easy one" - Mburn

Yes, I agree with this sentiment. However, this does not apply to everyone. But more importantly, it does not apply to every single moment of my life in this game. There are times I want to get stuff I do over and over again done with quickly, so that I can spend more time on the things I enjoy in the game. A crude example would be playing my TotPs games quickly so that I can brew fun decks in TG (which later may be tested in other events). I used this example because if I said TG, people would provide the rebuttal "you don't have to grind the 10 TG crystals, its not worth it, yada yada"

"When there are a couple easy-win cards floating around it makes the game less enjoyable for everyone, since it removes creativity from deckbuilding" - Mburn

Although, I can agree with this sentiment. I believe this is completely relative to the individual. There are certainly people that like these so called "easy-win" cards and enjoy that quick kill. The challenge was in building the right deck to get that super safe, fast, efficient kill deck, which can be argued required some creativity to achieve. Also, making the game less enjoyable for everyone because of this is relative as well. The situational requirements for a combo deck to actually combo off in the AIs hands is usually very low, aside from a handful of almost fully automated decks such as Kiora gem conversion, ID low cost spells, Sunbird derivatives, and now "Naru-plicate." But even these decks are not always 100% guaranteed to hit off in the AIs hands. Furthermore, there could possibly be a group pf players who prefer these decks as challenges to play against.

"And as I have been saying for a while, if spending an hour or two a day on a mobile game is so horrible, maybe you shouldn't be playing that game.  If it isn't enjoyable to you, why bother?" - Mburn

Although, I can follow the logic and understand your point of view. This is a very narrow viewpoint. Perhaps there are people with more demanding jobs and more family things to address? Perhaps they do want to play the game but simply their real life doesn't allow for it? People have different circumstances which needs to be accounted for. Perhaps a particular player really enjoys the game but due to working 10-12 hours a day for a new project is unable to muster but less than 1 hour a day for this game? However, they still want to get some new cards to play with in the future so that requires them to grind. But the problem repeats: don't have much time to grind... but need new cards to play fun new things.. and round and round we go.

Or perhaps they enjoy a different aspect of the game from what conventional people/players like? Perhaps they enjoy breaking the game but there isn't anything to really break anymore and so they are grinding for that future card to break? I mean the possibilities are endless as to the motives and circumstances...

If we all don't have jobs, school, families, need to eat, sleep, shower, fine load the game up with all kinds of time consuming stuff; but, the reality is that this is not the case.

"You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?" - Tremayne

Yes, I do. However, this is a question that can be asked from any point of view. Case in point, I could ask you the same, "You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?" And I would be asking you this question from the opposite perspective of you since I feel that you are not acknowledging these "other player's (i.e. me)" opinions.

"If I was starting out in MTGPQ, I think I would be happy to be able to play two TG’s a day and totally ignore TOTP and possibly RT." -Tremayne

Yes, I agree. If I was starting out, I would be happy to play 2 TGs because I probably wouldn't stand a chance in TotPs as a player just starting out. Additionally, the two TGs provide free crystals which are needed to help me get a better card/PW collection; whereas, TotPs costs me resources. Also, if i was starting out, my games would be significantly longer than a veteran player as I would probably be using handicapped cards like 2/2s for 12 mana. And I am pretty sure these new starting players are striving for stronger and better cards to kill faster and more efficiently.

So now as a veteran player I am pretty sure I don't want to play handicapped 2/2s for 12 mana because I played and collected cards for the purpose of not having to go back to that.

Think of it this way, in an RPG, I have:

1) lvl1 stick,

2) lvl 5 hammer

I want to go farm some exp or loot/resources... I am NOT going to use the lvl1 stick when I have a lvl 5 hammer to grind the same area over and over and over again. Translation: I am not going to use orchard spirit when I have woodland colossus in order to grind TG over and over again.

"For example, I don't have... any of the cards mentioned in this thread, and I have absolutely no problem knocking out both TGs and RT in a day." - OmegaLolrus

Yes, I agree. Many of us have no problem knocking out both TG and RT in a day. The question is really, do I have the time? Perhaps your schedule allows you to; however, this does not address the multitude of people who play this game and their many different schedules and life events.

Also, for some of us. It is not a matter of being able to do it. Its a matter of, is the time to do it worth it or can I do it in an amount of time that I feel is worth it. And this scale is different for everyone. A person who works as a lawyer isn't going to be happy with working 8 hours and getting paid minimum wage, no? Just the same way, I am a veteran player that isn't happy with playing TG for 30 mins to get 10 crystals - I've already been there. I'd rather spend 30 mins on TotPs to get pinkies than TG.. so on and so forth does the logic go.

Another way to think of it is: If I ride this taxi for 20 dollars to save 30 mins of my time when I make 40 dollars in 30 mins. Well by riding this taxi, I have effectively saved 30 mins which could be used to make 40 dollars minus the 20 dollar tax ride. I net 20 dollars. However, someone else may think, its a waste cause that extra 30 mins saved isn't going to be used for work anyways.. so on and so forth.. many perspectives.

"I simply can’t understand why anyone wants to complain about there is something to play in the  app." - Tremayne

I agree. But there are people with OCD and other personality traits (completionism/perfectionism) that may make it harder for them in real life.. Despite this, I don't believe its about having something to play as much as it is the comparative amount of time this game absorbs in relation to the rewards. We all know that laid-back game, where you just need to login and complete like 10 mins worth of play and you are done for the day!

Additionally, maybe its about what they want to play? Some people want to play fun cool decks but when you have time constraints you work on the things that must be done first. Its like a task/priority list. Step 1. finish all dailies. Step 2. play fun stuff I enjoy. And just maybe in the past they tried doing Step 2 first but found that it sometimes caused them to not be able to finish the "grind" for rewards because it took too long and they just simply didn't have the time.

I just went though the comments in chronological order and got this far. I'm sure there are more I could write but I'll end here for today.

You guys make good points and I understand what you guys want. I also understand the need for it. But, why is the reverse side not being understood as well? People want to be understood and acknowledged not shunned as wrong. So let us all hold hands.. and open our hearts.. i mean.. points of view! Okay, maybe not the holding hands part unless you like profusely clammy hands

Long post but summed up well.

Tremayne

@jimpark - good post above. You picked three of my statements, so I’ll just comment on those for now.

You know... - my point was that there needs to be something for the newbie and the veteran player to play. If something isn’t worth your time playing, then do not ask for it to be removed, ignore it, because you might not be the intended target.

if I were starting out... - exactly, totally agree. However I do wish that there was a pauper event running all the time. That way I could experiment with the lvl1 stick once in a while with having to meet the lvl25 atom bomb repeatedly.

I simply can’t understand... - the thing about OCD is completely valid, but I have no idea how that can be fixed to the satisfaction of every kind of player and personality condition.
This game has tried to go north, south, east and west without finding a solution, except to infuriate a smaller or larger percentage of the players. Long events have been split, small events are completed to quickly, some events have been run to often and others not enough. (Mind you I’m not saying these complaints are invalid, I’m using them to illustrate how much have been tried)

tfg76

+1 on the Max 6 for BSZ.

Naru could likely be "... it gains half it's mana", and then you could reduce the cost of Naru to 12 or smth.

StV would be more fun as a treasure based card. Perhaps Storm itself could flip on having 3 or more treasures in play, and the reverse would be "Activate 2: Create a treasure. A the beginning of your turn, convert 3 gems to you planeswalker's colors for each treasure you control".

I don't really have a problem with Beacon Bolt. It's actually a card that benefits

I don't see any reason to nerf legacy cards. It's all broken anyway.

Other than these three, I'd mostly just like to see cards being better at synergy, not raw power, and low-commonality cards (esp creatures) being boosted a bit. I think Dominaria did a good job at that.

Laeuftbeidir

"you don't have to play bsz if you think it's too good" is an argument I am not able to wrap my head around. It's a prisoners dilemma - if you're competitive, there are two reasons not to play it : you don't own it or the node has a spell limitation.

I find the stored mana idea good, it'll still be extremly powerful, but impact t the loop potential in the right way.

Raising the base cost up to ten would also help with that, it would pull out out of the free fetch range. Combined, the price would remain the same (16 top), it'd loop less but still giving you a big advantage.