Lets do some card balancing!

Mburn7

Based on the (extremely sparing) comments we've gotten from the dev team and the cards being put out with every set, I have a weird feeling that Oktagon still doesn't quite know how to properly balance cards.  Not saying that as a knock on them, it took WoTC years before they got a handle on things too, and they still come out with stinkers like Felidar Cub/Saheeli Rai every once in a while.

So, in the theme of my old set Balancing Threads, I thought we could come up with some solutions for problem cards and help Oktagon out a little bit.  The goal is to keep powerful cards powerful, but make them a bit less game-breaking

NOTE:  I will be updating this post based on comments and discussions, but right now they are MY OPINIONS ONLY.  Please feel free to tell me I am wrong/stupid.  Its ok, I can take it.

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Blue Sun's Zenith:  Cap the stored mana at 6 instead of 12.  You can still draw a full hand, but it won't go infinite anymore.
Note that this will fix most issues with Sunbird's Invocation, Expansion, Runaway Steam Kin...ect as well

Naru Meha:  Add a line of text preventing spells copied with her ability from casting that turn.  No need to change the entire copy rule, just one card.

Omniscience:  Add "this card cannot be fetched" or "this card must be cast from your hand" or something to it.  

Beacon Bolt:  Deal damage equal to half the spells in your graveyard.  Still probably should be a rare, but whatever

Storm the Vault:  Converts gems equal to number of supports.  Not double number.  Still probably should be a mythic, but whatever.

Path of Discovery:  The easy solution would be to make it "non token creature" only, but I really don't like that.  Maybe make it lose a shield every time it triggers?  Up it to start at 10 or 15 or something.  That'll keep it pretty good, but make it not take an hour to finish every time.

Etali, Primal Storm:  Either remove haste, or have it give 3/4 mana.

Hazoret's Undying Fury:  Remove the casting prompt, and make it fetch after the mana wipe and then give the fetched spells full mana (instead of reduce cost to zero).  This'll stop you from chaining them together.  Not a perfect solution, but I can't think of anything better that would leave the card useful at all (maybe make it fetch 3 instead of 4?  I dunno)

I'm not including any other legacy options because that's way too much work to sort through and figure out.  Let Legacy be the loopy mess it is.  Not like it really matters anyway.
Did I miss anything?  I feel like I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what.

wereotter

Quisiduplicate I feel like is the problem, not Naru Meha. So rather than change her, I would change Quisiduplicate to only being able to target non-legendary creatures. That would solve the looping issue while still letting you get your copy out the same turn.

Etali should definitely lose haste. Right now there's only a small number of cards in Standard that can respond to Etali as soon as it hits the field.

Laeuftbeidir

Start with BSZ, please. This will affect the current meta extremly, and would be very healthy for the game.

A nerfed bsz would make the other cards more meta relevant again (who needs converters if you usually win the turn you cast bsz anyway), so those suggestions are reasonable as well. I don't like the solution for omni - it seems like that would be good.. But I currently have no better solution.

Add prism array - start with it not triggering on the enemys turn and remove one shield

Mburn7

wereotter said:

Quisiduplicate I feel like is the problem, not Naru Meha. So rather than change her, I would change Quisiduplicate to only being able to target non-legendary creatures. That would solve the looping issue while still letting you get your copy out the same turn.

Hmm I'm not sure about this.  There are other spells that loop with Naru, there aren't any other creatures that loop with Quasi.  That's why I suggested to nerf Naru and leave everything else alone.

Laeuftbeidir said:

Start with BSZ, please. This will affect the current meta extremly, and would be very healthy for the game.

A nerfed bsz would make the other cards more meta relevant again (who needs converters if you usually win the turn you cast bsz anyway), so those suggestions are reasonable as well. I don't like the solution for omni - it seems like that would be good.. But I currently have no better solution.

Add prism array - start with it not triggering on the enemys turn and remove one shield

Like I said, I don't really want to get into Legacy because of how many busted interactions and things there are.  But prism array not triggering on your opponents turn just feels kind of wrong to me.  Not sure if that's the best solution.

And I agree Omni is a tough one to change without ruining it.  This was the best I could think of,

wereotter

Are there spell that loop with her that matter, though? I know you can put her back in your hand and then replay her and then put her back in your hand, etc.... but I'm not aware of other spells that loop with her and can win you the game right then and there. I'm fine being wrong... but I do feel adding the non-legendary clause to quasiduplicate will solve potential other problems that might come with any other legendary since the card wasn't balanced around that.

Laeuftbeidir

I mean, omni could have stored mana x=3=number of shields (and one shield by default) , so it couldn't play itself in a loop (stored mana cards don't do a thing if x=0l and whir would be useless with it

Mooninja

BSZ is in dire need of adjustment. Long overdue. A card that can fit and should fit into every possible scenario that it is useable it completely 100% broken and needs to be fixed.

Oh, and while we are dreaming in terms of Dev responses, how about doing something with the worst Masterpieces in the game? Having pulled my first one, ever, and having it was Lightning Greaves was incredibly underwhelming.

Mburn7

Mooninja said:

BSZ is in dire need of adjustment. Long overdue. A card that can fit and should fit into every possible scenario that it is useable it completely 100% broken and needs to be fixed.

Oh, and while we are dreaming in terms of Dev responses, how about doing something with the worst Masterpieces in the game? Having pulled my first one, ever, and having it was Lightning Greaves was incredibly underwhelming.

You have some valid points.  I made this to discuss reining in some of the more overpowered cards in the game.

A thread going over Mythic+ cards that need buffs would take significantly more work to put together (since there are just soooo many)

Aeroplane

Nerfing these cards will slow down the game even more. If these cards make the game too easy don't use them. If Greg is too hard....well.

I can see Naru's text being changed as it's a one card cast for a loop.

Legacy is venturing into the badlands, sometimes you live sometimes you die.

People would spend less money not having to chase these good cards.

Can you say Lavania? They should have made her Black and White to balance the colors. Blue  keeps getting the best cards and PWs.

Theros

I agree with @Aeroplan. A nerfrage will make this game too complicated. The dailies are extremely grindy especially with the addition of 2 TGs. Despite all them BSZ, deploy and what have you, many can't keep up with dailies. To make it easier, I have been ignoring TGS altogether. We have our hands full with ToTps and RT alone.

If anything most cards Octagon have released recently were mediocre TBH. Many masterpieces are not worth their rarity and paid exclusive are getting bad. The ravnica alliance set for instance can be overlooked; only 4 cards to me are somewhat worth chasing. DOM was the only set in which you won't be desapointed by any pull.
.

Gilesclone

They don’t need to go crazy on nerfs but BSZ is a classic example of a broken card.  Make the max X 6 and it would still be a great card

Mburn7

Aeroplane said:

Nerfing these cards will slow down the game even more. If these cards make the game too easy don't use them. If Greg is too hard....well.

I'm not sure I agree with you here.  I find a challenging game to be much more fun than an easy one, and creative deckbuilding over netdecking.  

When there are a couple easy-win cards floating around it makes the game less enjoyable for everyone, since it removes creativity from deckbuilding (since any deck without those cards is objectively worse no matter what) and it removes any challenge or strategy from the game (since it just becomes a race to who can play the insta-win card first).  The purpose of these suggestions is to keep the overpowered cards strong, but make it so they go from easy-button wins to just regular powerful cards you can still play around with.Theros said:

I agree with @Aeroplan. A nerfrage will make this game too complicated. The dailies are extremely grindy especially with the addition of 2 TGs. Despite all them BSZ, deploy and what have you, many can't keep up with dailies. To make it easier, I have been ignoring TGS altogether. We have our hands full with ToTps and RT alone.

If anything most cards Octagon have released recently were mediocre TBH. Many masterpieces are not worth their rarity and paid exclusive are getting bad. The ravnica alliance set for instance can be overlooked; only 4 cards to me are somewhat worth chasing. DOM was the only set in which you won't be desapointed by any pull.
.

I don't get what you mean by too complicated, unless you mean it'll make you actually need to think when making event decks.  And as I have been saying for a while, if spending an hour or two a day on a mobile game is so horrible, maybe you shouldn't be playing that game.  If it isn't enjoyable to you, why bother?

And I don't agree with your assessment of the new cards at all.  Sure most of the exclusive cards aren't nearly as game breaking as Olivia and Baral were, but that doesn't mean they are mediocre (although I can't speak for the RNA ones as they have not been released yet).  And there are a lot of great mythics and rares in GRN and RNA (certainly more than 4).  I don't know what you are looking for in a MTG Mobile Match-3 game, but I don't think the card power level is the biggest issue we have to deal with (except for a small number of nutty cards, which is the purpose of this thread)

Tremayne

Theros said:

...
The dailies are extremely grindy especially with the addition of 2 TGs. Despite all them BSZ, deploy and what have you, many can't keep up with dailies. To make it easier, I have been ignoring TGS altogether. We have our hands full with ToTps and RT alone.
...

You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?

 If I was starting out in MTGPQ, I think I would be happy to be able to play two TG’s a day and totally ignore TOTP and possibly RT.

Aeroplane

The engines in this game cover only Blue and Green. StV , Bsz, and Scapeshift/Spire drive most deck building in the game and that is not including Search for Azcanta as a lower tier great card. Sarkhan and Kiora sit happily on their thrones with access to both engines.

 Mana drain is a great counter and its blue again with discard decks unfortunately being black with the worst mana gain. Black, White and Red just lack any engine in this game for some reason. Mono PWs of these colors are fun, I love the latest Lilith, but are way to slow and can get easily bricked.

The new mechanics can't compete with jump start (Bolt and Quasi). Adapt should have worked like Energize with new adapt gems being summoned not just refilling the total amount. Riot ,meh .

If their is a bright side we are only 2 sets away when all decks will have an overhaul with these dominant engines going to legacy. Lavania will be the hot topic then as the most annoying card in Standard.

octal9

Mburn7 said:

Aeroplane said:

Nerfing these cards will slow down the game even more. If these cards make the game too easy don't use them. If Greg is too hard....well.

I'm not sure I agree with you here.  I find a challenging game to be much more fun than an easy one

Not you, but many players (on several media - these forums, reddit, the various chat applications) have made it quite clear that a more difficult - or even fair - experience with the AI would be "bad"

OmegaLolrus

Tremayne said:

Theros said:

...
The dailies are extremely grindy especially with the addition of 2 TGs. Despite all them BSZ, deploy and what have you, many can't keep up with dailies. To make it easier, I have been ignoring TGS altogether. We have our hands full with ToTps and RT alone.
...

You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?

 If I was starting out in MTGPQ, I think I would be happy to be able to play two TG’s a day and totally ignore TOTP and possibly RT.

For example, I don't have... any of the cards mentioned in this thread, and I have absolutely no problem knocking out both TGs and RT in a day. Only reason I haven't tried TOTP is I'm trying to get a full selection of planeswalkers and I don't know if I can climb all the way to the top to get my investment out of it.

EDIT: Oh, and should add, I'm having a blast doing it.

Laeuftbeidir

octal9 said:

Mburn7 said:

Aeroplane said:

Nerfing these cards will slow down the game even more. If these cards make the game too easy don't use them. If Greg is too hard....well.

I'm not sure I agree with you here.  I find a challenging game to be much more fun than an easy one

Not you, but many players (on several media - these forums, reddit, the various chat applications) have made it quite clear that a more difficult - or even fair - experience with the AI would be "bad"

Just look at cycling. If they'd add a literal win button, people would use it and hate seeing it leaving. And the devs really seem to have taken it into account and made Greg even more stupid then he already was.

I'd love to see the ai improving for the top levels!

bobby_2613

I, personnaly, don't want any card to be nerfed. I think they already have their hands full with consistancy and various bugs in this game to give any time to this.  Also, I'd really want any card to speed my game. I find those  fun and chase these actively.

Actually, nothing prevents anyone to remove it from their deck selection if they want to be more creative. (Note: I don't have BSZ and I can still win most of my fights.)

My humble 2 cents

Tremayne

OmegaLolrus said:

Tremayne said:

Theros said:

...
The dailies are extremely grindy especially with the addition of 2 TGs. Despite all them BSZ, deploy and what have you, many can't keep up with dailies. To make it easier, I have been ignoring TGS altogether. We have our hands full with ToTps and RT alone.
...

You do know there are other players than you in this game, right?

 If I was starting out in MTGPQ, I think I would be happy to be able to play two TG’s a day and totally ignore TOTP and possibly RT.

For example, I don't have... any of the cards mentioned in this thread, and I have absolutely no problem knocking out both TGs and RT in a day. Only reason I haven't tried TOTP is I'm trying to get a full selection of planeswalkers and I don't know if I can climb all the way to the top to get my investment out of it.

EDIT: Oh, and should add, I'm having a blast doing it.

Great to hear! 

I simply can’t understand why anyone wants to complain about there is something to play in the  app. I have played through the great drought of 2017-2018 where all we got was the same rinse and repeat events, because the developer was changed, so I’m happy there something to play. It was boring as ....

Now things have changed, so on most days I have more matches to play than I have time for. You know what, I can’t complain about that!

I actually think that there should be more events, which have differentiated difficulty levels, and dare I hope set limitations. Then I could choose which level of difficulty to play at and choose which part of my library to play with. I know this last wish favours veteran players, but it also creates diversity, which surely has been lacking during some periods of this ordeal that MTGPQ also is.

Edit - BTW by all means complain about length of events or prizes or whatever, as long as it is not complaints about to many matches to choose from. 

Mburn7

bobby_2613 said:

I, personnaly, don't want any card to be nerfed. I think they already have their hands full with consistancy and various bugs in this game to give any time to this.  Also, I'd really want any card to speed my game. I find those  fun and chase these actively.

Actually, nothing prevents anyone to remove it from their deck selection if they want to be more creative. (Note: I don't have BSZ and I can still win most of my fights.)

My humble 2 cents

Of course you can win most fights without BSZ.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't still stupidly overpowered.  And of course nobody is being forced to use it, except maybe in coalition events where winning is vital.

I don't get what either of those facts have to do with the fact that the card is way too powerful, and should be nerfed.  All of the cards I listed here get complained about constantly by players who are tired of the same 3-5 cards dominating the meta.  All of them are orders of magnitude more powerful than almost every other card in the game.

And again; if you are only playing a game in order to stop playing it as quickly as possible why are you playing that game?  If you are so miserable you want every match to end in 3 turns, why are you playing? I just don't get it.

bobby_2613

Mburn7 said:

Of course you can win most fights without BSZ.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't still stupidly overpowered.  And of course nobody is being forced to use it, except maybe in coalition events where winning is vital.

I don't get what either of those facts have to do with the fact that the card is way too powerful, and should be nerfed.  All of the cards I listed here get complained about constantly by players who are tired of the same 3-5 cards dominating the meta.  All of them are orders of magnitude more powerful than almost every other card in the game.

And again; if you are only playing a game in order to stop playing it as quickly as possible why are you playing that game?  If you are so miserable you want every match to end in 3 turns, why are you playing? I just don't get it.

Well, I'm happy I didn't call you stupid or wrong and gave only my point of view.  

You know, sometimes you like a game but don't have that much time to play it.  Buuuut, you'd like to have all the rewards anyways.  I rarely win in 3 turns.  I'm even stupid enough to fight till the end even if the game's taking over 100 turns.  But look, there's time (like in TG) I'd like to win fast, or on very tough PvE fights be able to be done with it.  Maybe you don't get it because you've been on the other side of the fence too long.  I don't know, all I see is you have the choice to play or not with those cards.  Why are you playing that game if you can't see pass the meta?  Play the cards you want, have fun, be creative looks to me you're the only one limiting yourself here.  Then again, I have nothing against you, this is your view and I respect it.

P.S. This game isn't only to play matches against AI.  This game is also about collecting cards, buying PW and leveling them. Getting enough crystals/jewels to chase cards you want most...  Common point of all this? You need to play matches to get those rewards.  If what you like the most is that and have the choice, will you take the long road? Or the shortest?