Loop Prevention System - More Details *Updated (3/12/19)

Dwayne

Brigby said:

Hi Everyone. Thank you all for the insightful and constructive feedback. I just spoke with the team this morning, and they will be changing the 18 seconds per phase to 90 seconds. 

This change will be a transitional adjustment, as the team will continue to monitor and work towards finding the right balance between solving infinite loop issues and maintaining player play styles following the 3.3 update.

Thanks for listening!!!

nerdstrap

I cant think of a single instance where a “loop” is bad. There are degenerate interactions that lead to a poor experience, but that’s a product of poor card design and balance. Every magic the gathering game has combos that can go on for many many actions, and every gem matching game has chains that can go for many many actions.

lets get bugs fixed and cards balanced first. 

When people say no loops what they really mean is I don’t think I should lose to random chance or cards I don’t own yet. Well, this is a game of RNG and collectibility... get over it or go play chess 

Theros

Why not ditch the timer altogether and let " the team will continue to monitor and work towards finding the right balance"?
90 seconds is still too low for starting point and here is why:
It takes an average of 5 mins to complete a game in ToTps, TGs and RTs using a decent deck and this is the equivalent of 300 secs. We can assume that no player would want to wait longer than that to finish.

OmegaLolrus

nerdstrap said:

I cant think of a single instance where a “loop” is bad. There are degenerate interactions that lead to a poor experience, but that’s a product of poor card design and balance. Every magic the gathering game has combos that can go on for many many actions, and every gem matching game has chains that can go for many many actions.

I will agree with most of that. I don't think an entire strategy built around a loop is a particularly good game design. I think it makes for boring gameplay. That is my opinion, however. With that said, a good, solid card balancing could very possibly solve the issue completely.

nerdstrap said:

When people say no loops what they really mean is I don’t think I should lose to random chance or cards I don’t own yet. Well, this is a game of RNG and collectibility... get over it or go play chess 

I feel that's a little bit of an over-simplification of some peoples' concerns.

In the cases where it isn't, I definitely agree. I'm sorry, if your deck is mostly commons, you're probably going to lose to a deck that's mostly mythics. You're going to lose the game. Possibly more than half the time. Nature of the beast. That collectability is at the core of the Magic experience. Be happy that if you want to run that bomb March of the Multitudes deck, you don't need to get four copies of it.

Bubblebooy

90 seconds is way too long. If a turn is taking longer then 25 seconds that is a problem that should be fixed, or an infinite loop.

Fix the problem of cards taking too long to resolve and keep a reasonable loop timer.

Mburn7

Bubblebooy said:

90 seconds is way too long. If a turn is taking longer then 25 seconds that is a problem that should be fixed, or an infinite loop.

Fix the problem of cards taking too long to resolve and keep a reasonable loop timer.

First off, welcome to the forums!

Secondly, that 25 seconds seems pretty arbitrary.  Why did you pick that as your cutoff?

Considering some cards individually take 5-10 seconds to animate (depending on your phone), limiting the timer to 25 seems a bit low to me.

ZW2007-

There still seems to be a major disconnect here. An infinite loop is not a combo deck or vice versa. Infinite by definition means limitless or endless. Combo decks have a natural end point. They end when either you or the AI die. Infinite loops never end because they are either bugged, the AI is too stupid to play it correctly, or both. Some combos take longer than others to play out but they will end eventually. There are currently no infinite loops in the game. As far as I know, both of the ones that used to exist have been patched.

If real life time is the concern that some players have, perhaps they should request a feature that speeds up or removes animations entirely (one that functions for all actions instead of that goofy thing we got). We shouldn't ask them to nerf a playstyle because we don't like that playstyle. If combo decks aren't your style, don't play them. Of course you will encounter them in the wild but be prepared for them or be prepared to lose to them.

I hate control decks because they drag things out so long that it would take me hours just to complete the few daily events. You don't see me complaining that they need to limit the amount of kill cards a deck can run.

Mburn7

ZW2007- said:

There still seems to be a major disconnect here. An infinite loop is not a combo deck or vice versa. Infinite by definition means limitless or endless. Combo decks have a natural end point. They end when either you or the AI die. Infinite loops never end because they are either bugged, the AI is too stupid to play it correctly, or both. Some combos take longer than others to play out but they will end eventually. There are currently no infinite loops in the game. As far as I know, both of the ones that used to exist have been patched.

If real life time is the concern that some players have, perhaps they should request a feature that speeds up or removes animations entirely (one that functions for all actions instead of that goofy thing we got). We shouldn't ask them to nerf a playstyle because we don't like that playstyle. If combo decks aren't your style, don't play them. Of course you will encounter them in the wild but be prepared for them or be prepared to lose to them.

I hate control decks because they drag things out so long that it would take me hours just to complete the few daily events. You don't see me complaining that they need to limit the amount of kill cards a deck can run.

That's not entirely accurate.  I can think of at least 2 card combos that will go literally infinite (or very very close to it) without stopping or winning.  You can add extra cards that will either end the loop early or deal damage while it is going, but the AI definitely doesn't know to do that and you certainly don't have to.

There are also a bunch of combo decks out there that are definitely not infinite, but do take a very very long time to either end or kill your opponent (some well over 30 min per turn).  Sure those are not technically infinite, but they might as well be.

There should probably be something done to limit this for the same reason WoTC just banned Nexus of Fate in MTG Arena best-of-1 fights.  One player taking an hour long turn is not fun for either player, and while in real life you can talk it over and speed up the loop a bit in the digital world you absolutely cannot.  So your options are limited to waiting it out or forfeiting, neither one of which is a fun or satisfactory option.

I'm not saying a turn timer (or whatever you want to call this) is the best solution.  In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the worst possible solution.  But I understand why something is needed, and now that its long enough that it won't effect most of my decks (combo or otherwise) I can live with it while a better solution is figured out.

Unknown

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ZW2007-

Mburn7 said:

ZW2007- said:

There still seems to be a major disconnect here. An infinite loop is not a combo deck or vice versa. Infinite by definition means limitless or endless. Combo decks have a natural end point. They end when either you or the AI die. Infinite loops never end because they are either bugged, the AI is too stupid to play it correctly, or both. Some combos take longer than others to play out but they will end eventually. There are currently no infinite loops in the game. As far as I know, both of the ones that used to exist have been patched.

If real life time is the concern that some players have, perhaps they should request a feature that speeds up or removes animations entirely (one that functions for all actions instead of that goofy thing we got). We shouldn't ask them to nerf a playstyle because we don't like that playstyle. If combo decks aren't your style, don't play them. Of course you will encounter them in the wild but be prepared for them or be prepared to lose to them.

I hate control decks because they drag things out so long that it would take me hours just to complete the few daily events. You don't see me complaining that they need to limit the amount of kill cards a deck can run.

That's not entirely accurate.  I can think of at least 2 card combos that will go literally infinite (or very very close to it) without stopping or winning.  You can add extra cards that will either end the loop early or deal damage while it is going, but the AI definitely doesn't know to do that and you certainly don't have to.

There are also a bunch of combo decks out there that are definitely not infinite, but do take a very very long time to either end or kill your opponent (some well over 30 min per turn).  Sure those are not technically infinite, but they might as well be.

There should probably be something done to limit this for the same reason WoTC just banned Nexus of Fate in MTG Arena best-of-1 fights.  One player taking an hour long turn is not fun for either player, and while in real life you can talk it over and speed up the loop a bit in the digital world you absolutely cannot.  So your options are limited to waiting it out or forfeiting, neither one of which is a fun or satisfactory option.

I'm not saying a turn timer (or whatever you want to call this) is the best solution.  In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the worst possible solution.  But I understand why something is needed, and now that its long enough that it won't effect most of my decks (combo or otherwise) I can live with it while a better solution is figured out.

Let's see these infinite decks that will never end or combo decks that will take well over 30 minutes. Give me a breakdown of every card in each deck please.

Unknown

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Mburn7

ZW2007- said:

Mburn7 said:

ZW2007- said:

There still seems to be a major disconnect here. An infinite loop is not a combo deck or vice versa. Infinite by definition means limitless or endless. Combo decks have a natural end point. They end when either you or the AI die. Infinite loops never end because they are either bugged, the AI is too stupid to play it correctly, or both. Some combos take longer than others to play out but they will end eventually. There are currently no infinite loops in the game. As far as I know, both of the ones that used to exist have been patched.

If real life time is the concern that some players have, perhaps they should request a feature that speeds up or removes animations entirely (one that functions for all actions instead of that goofy thing we got). We shouldn't ask them to nerf a playstyle because we don't like that playstyle. If combo decks aren't your style, don't play them. Of course you will encounter them in the wild but be prepared for them or be prepared to lose to them.

I hate control decks because they drag things out so long that it would take me hours just to complete the few daily events. You don't see me complaining that they need to limit the amount of kill cards a deck can run.

That's not entirely accurate.  I can think of at least 2 card combos that will go literally infinite (or very very close to it) without stopping or winning.  You can add extra cards that will either end the loop early or deal damage while it is going, but the AI definitely doesn't know to do that and you certainly don't have to.

There are also a bunch of combo decks out there that are definitely not infinite, but do take a very very long time to either end or kill your opponent (some well over 30 min per turn).  Sure those are not technically infinite, but they might as well be.

There should probably be something done to limit this for the same reason WoTC just banned Nexus of Fate in MTG Arena best-of-1 fights.  One player taking an hour long turn is not fun for either player, and while in real life you can talk it over and speed up the loop a bit in the digital world you absolutely cannot.  So your options are limited to waiting it out or forfeiting, neither one of which is a fun or satisfactory option.

I'm not saying a turn timer (or whatever you want to call this) is the best solution.  In fact, I'm pretty sure this is the worst possible solution.  But I understand why something is needed, and now that its long enough that it won't effect most of my decks (combo or otherwise) I can live with it while a better solution is figured out.

Let's see these infinite decks that will never end or combo decks that will take well over 30 minutes. Give me a breakdown of every card in each deck please.

Check your DMs, and remember;  With great power comes great responsibility.

Brakkis

ZW2007- said:
Let's see these infinite decks that will never end or combo decks that will take well over 30 minutes. Give me a breakdown of every card in each deck please.

Zendikar Resurgent
Olivia, Mobilized for War
Locust God

When you draw a card, Locust God creates an Insect token.
When a creature comes in to play, Zendikar Resurgent draws a card
When a creature comes in to play, Olivia discards a card

So at the start of your turn you draw a card, Locust God creates the token, Zendikar Resurgent draws a card, Olivia discards that card, but Locust God creates another token on draw, and it just goes on and on. I've encountered the deck twice, ever. Fairly certain it was the same player, both times on Samut.

Actual solution - Change Zendikar Resurgent to only trigger on non-token creatures.
Also an actual solution - They could make Olivia only trigger on non-token creatures as well. She could use a nerf.
Not actual solution - Turn timer.

Unknown

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ZW2007-

I forgot about some of the old shady ones in Legacy. Those need to be fixed on a card by card basis, like you said. It would be faster to adjust a single card when a problem comes up than the time they wasted creating a turn timer. Better yet, they could leave the cards alone and implement the fix I suggested. You could play your Olivia Resurgent Locust deck and never worry about getting yourself stuck and it would still be a solid strategy without going on forever.

OmegaLolrus

ZW2007- said:

There still seems to be a major disconnect here. An infinite loop is not a combo deck or vice versa. Infinite by definition means limitless or endless. Combo decks have a natural end point. They end when either you or the AI die. Infinite loops never end because they are either bugged, the AI is too stupid to play it correctly, or both. Some combos take longer than others to play out but they will end eventually. There are currently no infinite loops in the game. As far as I know, both of the ones that used to exist have been patched.

If real life time is the concern that some players have, perhaps they should request a feature that speeds up or removes animations entirely (one that functions for all actions instead of that goofy thing we got). We shouldn't ask them to nerf a playstyle because we don't like that playstyle. If combo decks aren't your style, don't play them. Of course you will encounter them in the wild but be prepared for them or be prepared to lose to them.

I hate control decks because they drag things out so long that it would take me hours just to complete the few daily events. You don't see me complaining that they need to limit the amount of kill cards a deck can run.

Well, perhaps there is a bit of a disconnect here. Lemme make sure I understand what we're talking about.

First of all, we can (I hope) all agree that an infinite loop that never resolves the game is bad.

Alright, so that said, this combo deck. For example, what I would call the best deck I have has pretty much all the best Selesnya cards (you know, the greatest hits). I've got a really high win rate with it. I'd say I win 75% of the games I play with it (just straight up face-smash, not counting objectives), lose because I misplayed it about 20%, and lose to RNG about 5%. It's not super hard to play, but it does require a certain amount of proper decision making. Do I cast Dawn of Hope now, or wait a little bit longer, do I use this Haazda Marshal, or do I swap in for Emmara. It's probably not the optimal loadout for the deck, but I have a lot of fun with it.

That's what I would call a combo deck. I don't think an 18 second turn timer would have killed it, but it would have made it more frustrating in the cascade situations where I've got March, Chord of Calling, a couple Guildgates and Conclave Tribunal to put into play.

My beef is with the deck that, once they fire off one specific card in the deck, I've lost the game. I see that's what the AI is casting (usually BSZ) and I sit and watch while the AI fills and empties its hand at least three times. Usually, it'll do something to eat my HP down while I sit and watch it happen, having absolutely no control over the outcome. Having a one turn kill is generally a really **** experience.

I do not have a beef with the decks that will empty out a hand, doing a huge amount of damage to me, then next turn, they fill it up again and fire off a few more abilities, possibly kill two of my creatures. Then, the next turn finish me off. I could, theoretically, have done something, with a little luck and some good matches. Maybe get a clutch return-to-hand to buy me a few turns. Something.

I think something needs to be done for the extreme far end of the spectrum where there is literally nothing to be done, and after my turn is over, the game will be over four or five minutes later without any input whatsoever. Do not want Puzzle Quest Combo Winter.

OmegaLolrus

Brakkis said:

ZW2007- said:
Let's see these infinite decks that will never end or combo decks that will take well over 30 minutes. Give me a breakdown of every card in each deck please.

Zendikar Resurgent
Olivia, Mobilized for War
Locust God

When you draw a card, Locust God creates an Insect token.
When a creature comes in to play, Zendikar Resurgent draws a card
When a creature comes in to play, Olivia discards a card

So at the start of your turn you draw a card, Locust God creates the token, Zendikar Resurgent draws a card, Olivia discards that card, but Locust God creates another token on draw, and it just goes on and on. I've encountered the deck twice, ever. Fairly certain it was the same player, both times on Samut.

Actual solution - Change Zendikar Resurgent to only trigger on non-token creatures.
Also an actual solution - They could make Olivia only trigger on non-token creatures as well. She could use a nerf.
Not actual solution - Turn timer.

Okay, after reading this, I'm fairly certain that you and I want for the long-term of the game are the same thing. I may be badly communicating what I think, no idea.

Gilesclone

OmegaLolrus said:
...

My beef is with the deck that, once they fire off one specific card in the deck, I've lost the game. I see that's what the AI is casting (usually BSZ) and I sit and watch while the AI fills and empties its hand at least three times. Usually, it'll do something to eat my HP down while I sit and watch it happen, having absolutely no control over the outcome. Having a one turn kill is generally a really tinykitty experience.

I do not have a beef with the decks that will empty out a hand, doing a huge amount of damage to me, then next turn, they fill it up again and fire off a few more abilities, possibly kill two of my creatures. Then, the next turn finish me off. I could, theoretically, have done something, with a little luck and some good matches. Maybe get a clutch return-to-hand to buy me a few turns. Something.

I think something needs to be done for the extreme far end of the spectrum where there is literally nothing to be done, and after my turn is over, the game will be over four or five minutes later without any input whatsoever. Do not want Puzzle Quest Combo Winter.

This is a problem with matching.  Because of mastery based matching you are unfairly matched against players who can kill you in one turn while you are unable to return the favor.  If they had based matching on collection size instead you would not have this problem.  We don’t need a timer to fix bad matching.

OmegaLolrus

Gilesclone said:

OmegaLolrus said:
...

My beef is with the deck that, once they fire off one specific card in the deck, I've lost the game. I see that's what the AI is casting (usually BSZ) and I sit and watch while the AI fills and empties its hand at least three times. Usually, it'll do something to eat my HP down while I sit and watch it happen, having absolutely no control over the outcome. Having a one turn kill is generally a really tinykitty experience.

I do not have a beef with the decks that will empty out a hand, doing a huge amount of damage to me, then next turn, they fill it up again and fire off a few more abilities, possibly kill two of my creatures. Then, the next turn finish me off. I could, theoretically, have done something, with a little luck and some good matches. Maybe get a clutch return-to-hand to buy me a few turns. Something.

I think something needs to be done for the extreme far end of the spectrum where there is literally nothing to be done, and after my turn is over, the game will be over four or five minutes later without any input whatsoever. Do not want Puzzle Quest Combo Winter.

This is a problem with matching.  Because of mastery based matching you are unfairly matched against players who can kill you in one turn while you are unable to return the favor.  If they had based matching on collection size instead you would not have this problem.  We don’t need a timer to fix bad matching.

I 100% agree that a timer isn't a good solution to the issue at hand.

It could very well be a matchmaking issue, I don't think I have enough data to make that call. I mean, I'm at platinum, it feels like I have a much smaller collection of the higher-end cards than the decks I'm playing against.

I realize that's, in part, a fallacy, since I'm only seeing either the deck that player is working on leveling or, probably, their best deck. But I've only got enough really good mythics together to populate two really solid decks (Selesnya and Dimir).

Kind of like having Hatchery Spider without Izoni. I've got a lot of good cards, but a small percentage synergizes against one another. If I'm hitting one of the blue nodes in Rising Tensions, I don't have blue cards to help me compete against Blue Sun's Zenith.

I still don't like a one-turn kill, but if I (who can't build that deck whether I want to or not) am not matched against the people who only do that... I really don't care. If I CAN build that deck (and choose not to) and I'm matched against those decks... well, I'm not happy, but that's a much more complicated issue to deal with, and I'm willing to give the game a bit more time and leeway in that situation. End game is always hard to balance.

Gilesclone

One turn kills require some setup and often a bit of luck.  There are ways to sabotage those decks, but they require a solid collection and also a bit of luck.  Or you just play your own one turn kill and hope your first turn advantage and human intelligence beat them to the punch. But you need the cards.

It’s silly that people with all the cards get matched against people with half that.  Better matching is desperately needed and they claim to be working on it.  We can only hope that they come up with a better solution than this one.