Loop Prevention System - More Details *Updated (3/12/19)

Brigby

Update: Thank you all for the insightful and constructive feedback. I just spoke with the team this morning, and they will be changing the 18 seconds per phase to 90 seconds. 

This change will be a transitional adjustment, as the team will continue to monitor and work towards finding the right balance between solving infinite loop issues and maintaining player play styles following the 3.3 update.
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Hi Everyone,

With the announcement of the Loop Prevention System being implemented in the upcoming 3.3 build, players had many questions about how it will affect their games; specifically their combo decks. Oktagon was kind enough to take some time to break down and explain exactly how the Loop Prevention System works in its entirely. Check it out below:

The Loop Prevention System (LPS) intends to solve problems related to loops that provide a negative experience for the player, such as infinite ones, where the player is forced to quit the game and forfeit the match due to the opponent never finishing their play or the player not being able to cancel a play her/himself made. Loops that work as active build up combos can still be employed to a certain extent, just enough to not turn the game into an idle experience. The time available is way more than 18 seconds, as we’ll explain below.

Our main goal is to enable fun, engagement, and improvements in quality of life to our players. We want to assure players that our team will keep track of the community feedback in order to adjust the system values if needed. At first glance, this might seem restrictive. So, we tried and tested reported loops, both infinite and build-ups, in order to construct this system.

The Loop Prevention System is not a turn timer.

It is important to mention that the LPS countdown doesn’t run while the game is waiting for any of the player’s inputs. It means that whenever a card pops up on the screen, a confirmation prompt is displayed or when the game is paused, the timer will stop until that process ends. Also, gaining an extra swap adds extra time to the remaining amount.The LPS acts once per step in four different steps, each with their own time limit (18s each).

1. At the beginning of the turn (where “At the beginning of your turn” effects takes place), such as many converters or some gem destroyers. Once these effects end, the player can make the first Swap;
2. No timer is active before a Swap is made. After the Swap, the casting step comes along. It’s here where the cards are cast and most of the effects are triggered. Gaining Extra Swaps can prolong this step, but gives diminishing time after each additional Extra Swap, if they are within the same turn.
3. When creatures attack (combat step) and some special effects take place, another timer runs. If the timer would end during this step, creatures will still attack normally but their triggered/delayed effects will not trigger;
4. Then there’s the last individual timer, at the end of the turn, when most of the discard and destruction effects trigger and some temporary attribute changes end.

The main step of the player’s turn, the one that happens after the beginning of the turn and before the first match, is not affected by the LPS, as this is a phase mainly consisting of the player’s inputs - meaning that players can arrange their hands, activate Planeswalkers, cycle cards and trigger other intentional effects without having to worry about time limitations. The main timer starts running only after the player’s swap of the turn.

After the player’s first swap, the timer will start running. Automated and non-optional actions run their course. If there’s an extra match, the timer stops, adding a little more time, but doesn’t reset, since the game is still in the casting step. If the automated actions pass the time limit, the step will end and start the next one - the step, not the turn. The combat step then starts and runs normally, until its countdown ends. The same happens for the end actions at the end of the turn.

How does the Card Visual Aid options affect the Loop Prevention System?

One of the main concerns about the Loop Prevention System is its interaction with the Card Visual Aid, the configuration that enables players to turn On or Off most of the cards’ animations.To answer this question, here are the rules and behaviors of this new feature.

• When the Step-by-Step or the Auto modes are on, the timer will stop whenever a card, effect, or confirmation prompt pops up on the screen;
• When the Visual Aid is turned Off, since cards don’t pop up on screen, the timer runs without interruptions, with the exception of when a confirmation prompt pops up.

We’ll continue monitoring the metagame as new loops become available, in order to identify those that are damaging to the player experience, and adjust accordingly when deemed necessary.

The team has also provided an example video which everyone can take a look at below. Please note that this one single player turn has taken up almost 60 seconds-worth of time. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYfo7U_ws7o&feature=youtu.be
We hope this explanation is insightful and helpful for players! Thank you for your patience and understanding, and we hope you enjoy the upcoming 3.3 update!

Dropspot

Ok, so yet again ou are just explaining us instead of trying to solve the problem.

I am afraid the end of this game is getting closer...

wereotter

Question regarding what is considered visualization:

One of the bigger concerns, for me at least, is the time it takes certain effects to animate and how this plays into the timer, and also what is considered visualization. So for example, I'm playing Huatli, Radiant Champion, I make my swap and cast Thunderheard Migration. Thunderheard Migration converts gems to green and triggers one or more green matches. If I have her first loyalty support in play, that will then cause every trail of loyalty to go into Huatli's portrait for every creature and every creature reinforcement I control. With a lot of creatures, those trails alone can take up 18 seconds. Is any of that considered visualization?

Similarly I have a deck of red-blue wizards running Adeliz and mostly spells, all of which cost 12 or less mana. If I fully charge a Blue Sun's Zenith in that deck, I'm going to draw a full hand of cards, and cast every single card I drew. Most of the time that will be about 5 spells, and every time I cast a spell, Adeliz is going to animate a +2/+2 buff on all my creatures. I understand that the process of selecting targets for the spells pauses the timer, but does her animation also pause it?

If the answer to these questions is no, is there any way to petition for the animations to be faster? I understand that with the timer in place they can't currently be opted out of entirely as that would cause an advantage, potentially, for players who have them turned off versus those who keep them turned on.

I think knowing what falls under that umbrella of "visualization" would put a lot of minds at ease regarding the timer.

Brigby

Dropspot said:

Ok, so yet again ou are just explaining us instead of trying to solve the problem.

I am afraid the end of this game is getting closer...

One of the big concerns players have vocalized was that an 18 second timer would be way too short. This post and video serves to explain how long a turn can actually be, since it's each PHASE being a minimum of 18 seconds, as opposed to the entire player's turn being 18 seconds.

As the video shows, the entire turn was about a minute long, and illustrated how visual effects (like cards or confirmation prompts popping up) would pause the timer.

Dropspot

But in this case all Marches were already fully charged. This is not a loop deck. The example is very limited to guarantee that the timer won't affect gameplay.

We will need to see with our own eyes to really understand the implications of the timer. But I believe it will be a game changer for many loop decks. 

BATMAN1

NO, we don’t want it. 

Laeuftbeidir

Thanks for the clarification! Now I can step back from my initial "wait and see, maybe it isn't as bad" perspective and join the folks with the pitchforks.

This will prevent a lot of the non-loop combos introduced in the last sets and is a very inelegant solution to a self-made problem. Changes to individual cards that are problematic would lead to lit torches as well, but would've worked with the root of the problem, not the symptom.

ArielSira

I don't think anyone was under the impression that the 18 seconds rule was for the whole turn.

Currently in Standard I run a Ral deck with Sunbird and BSZ as only card under 10. This deck creates a loop that goes on for a while but is impossible to be unlimited (due to Sunbird losing shields). As far as I can tell this deck will be pretty much killed by the timer?

Brigby

@wereotter That's a good question! I personally don't know that answer, but I'll be sure to ask the team to see whether visual effect animations (like buffs or loyalty) also pause the timer for their duration.

@Dropspot That's certainly a fair point; it was not a loop deck. I think the purpose of this explanation was more-so to both clarify that it's not 18 seconds total, but rather 18 seconds per phase, and also to show potentially how long a single turn can actually extend.

I will agree that personal experience will also determine how much this Loop Prevention System affects your own game-play and play-style.

Tilwin90

Plus the whole thing worked EXTREMELY smoothly on your fancy... simulator - I presume (I seriously doubt the test was done on an actual phone... The game works as smoothly only on my pc but not on my LG g6).

With multiple effects causing lag (including fetching djinn wishes) I wonder how the team took that into account. Are slower devices more impacted than faster devices? Has the team truly tested this or are we discussing assumptions?

What about power saving mode being more laggy as well? What about animations that take longer than others (pig alone takes ages to power up your team and I know I picked a very hated card example here but bear with me y'all...)? They are not pop ups, but some take longer than others for absolutely no reason. 🙄

Time feels like such a volatile solution to all this whether it is in-game time or actual device time. 

Gideon

How long would that turn have lasted if he played with the animations off. Probably way closer to 18 seconds. So now we get punished for turning off the animations? Why create a feature if you want to punish us for using it? It doesn’t make any sense. 

TheDude1

Brigby-

Please relay this specific concern to the team, as it's the heart of what the complaints are:

Breaking out the timer into different steps is appreciated, but 18 seconds for casting (step 2) is disproportionately low to the time needed to complete anything beyond a base-level play pattern.  The casting step is by far the longest step compared to the other three steps. 

1. In the video there was practically 0 time taken during gem matching.  Even in the most extreme cases, with cascade after cascade after activated gem match, etc., I can't think of a single instance where this process would take more than 18 seconds.
2. In the video, all four Marches were already loaded and still didn't fully resolve.  If you add on even the slightest casting effect on top of those, you already run afoul of even getting one of those completed, let alone the other cards in your hand.  In other words, even the relatively simple base case you showed above failed - any more complex decks/interactions would likewise fail.
3. Like gem matching, with only three creature slots on the board, there should be no reason that combat takes 18 seconds ever.  I've never seen it take anywhere near as long, even with random buffs, etc.
4. Like 1 & 3, there shouldn't be instances where the end state needs 18 seconds to resolve.  Other players can weigh in on instances that this may not be true (graveyard shenanigans?) but my personal experience is that it doesn't ever take 18 seconds to resolve the end step.  This is ignoring the idea that the end step should ever be cut short - if a creature dies in combat but took more than 18 seconds for it to clear, does it stay on the board?

All of this is to say that the vast majority of time in a hand is concentrated on Casting (Phase 2).  The timer handicaps any sort of complex series of actions, many of which are baked into the express functionality of the cards.  Separating out the timer into different phases does little to assuage these fears.

rafalele

Ok, it runs better than I expected (can not understand why) but still is worse than you said the first time because we have 3 timers. Why?

This game does not need timers at all. 

If I play with cards with effects (or that combo with other cards) I want all of them to take place when they are supposed to do and not sometimes if the related timer of the current turn step allows them.

You have posted an example of the Loop Prevention System working just with 4 token generation card, thank you (it was needed, not ironic). I also need examples of the system working (stoping different loops), not just not working. Stoping a loping Rashmi Kiora deck or a Waterveil Kiora deck would be interesting.

But, why developers have spent so many time in a timer that changes the way Magic the Gathering cards work and iteract between them. With this system no one can be sure what is going to happen at the end of the turn, which and how many loop iteractions are going to take place and which and how many effects will be triggered. This would not Magic the Gathering behavior, would be hazar.

A question to the player when the timer is finished in order to continue or not with the loop and reset the timer in the case that the user wants to continue with it, would be the perfect solution not to throw away all the work done, at least in the players turns, in the IA turns the system could work as it has been implemented. 

Sorry but I still do not like the Loop Prevention System at all.

Tilwin90

Wow I only just noticed the system doesn't even support 4 marches. This definitely means animation time is taken into account... Big time. 

And what's with the handicap for extra turns? 😕 Now you are indirectly punishing extra turn decks and masking that under the "breaking loops" umbrella?

Yeah, if this goes live my decks are mostly dead... Then let the exodus begin. 😴 Because without combo decks I really have no time for PVE battles like azor or bolas or PVP events that involve 5 nodes.

Tremayne

Sorry it is late here, so I might be a bit to tired for this.

However after reading item 2, I don’t understand why the video allows all four cards to cast since they are obviously taking 30+ sec to cast. The casting step only have one 18 sec timer according to your post. How is this possible?

My guess is that all cards which are filled at the beginning of the turn (or after the match) will be cast regardless of the timer.

This makes me wonder, what happens to cards that are not filled before resolving a card like Thunderhead Migration during the casting step, which then fills up one or more cardswith mana?

IM_CARLOS

@bigby: well the point is not how long is a turn, but if I cascade for five second and cast something 18 sec.are way too long but at least my creature attack and triggered effects does not happen. ****! Thats a code made from noobs that never played any turnbased game. This will kill the game. But unfair, unpracticle and uninspired are the new credo of the game. Last fiasco isn't solved now the next with some declaration how long 18 sec. Are...

Get your money somewhere else! This is just stupidy! Narrow minded developer crash the game without cause! 

Not another dime! Not until both severe problems are fixed or stoped! Keep you words, just fix it! 

IM_CARLOS

I don't know who planed this "fix" but maybe he is wrong in gaming business. You wreck this game in two patches after 3 years. What a shame! 

Stormcrow

I'm not going to belabor the point already made by everyone else that nothing in this post told me anything I hadn't already understood or allays any of my concerns, instead I just want to say...

...man, I really wish the game ran as smooth on my phone as it does in that video!

rafalele

With the example you have posted anyone can see that the Loop Prevention System is not allowing the player to use 4 cards with no loop or combo involved.

Good work, this case is what we all feared, not only the legal 'finite loops' are not going to work but neither normal cards.

To solve infinite loops they broke the game.

nerdstrap

This game is dead. NOBODY WANTS A LOOP PREVENTION TIMER. 

Brakkis

None of what is in that blog post was unknown to the majority of people voicing their displeasure.

• We all knew it didn't start until you made the first gem match
• We all knew it paused any time something that is disabled by the Card Visual Art feature pops up
• We all knew it wouldn't prevent our creatures from attacking.

Once again, a blog post has been put out that treats your players as if they are unable to read or grasp the implications of mechanic changes. However, all it really does is give the players a sense that it is Oktagon that isn't reading, or grasping the overall negative effect those changes are going to have.

Yes, it's a turn timer because the cast step is the only functional part of a turn where a timer would matter. There's no directing which creature or target your creatures hit so once the attack phase starts your turn is effectively over anyhow. Forcing a timer on the player before they've even made a match would be asinine. So obviously, the only place to put the timer is during the cast phase where cards are actually played. Thus, given that that is the only part of the turn where we actually do anything meaningful and it's timed, it's a turn timer.

That video being used includes none of the cards that would combo with March of the Multitudes. So sure, if that is the only thing happening, you can dump out your tokens and that's it. Now go ahead and try to run a simulation with combo's involved. Drop in a Path of Discovery. Or throw in Verdant Sun's Avatar. Chain it in to a gem converter or two. Put out a creature that individually buffs the other creatures in play. There are a myriad of cards that can be combo'd with March and each of them would make the video showcase as laughable as we know it would be. That's just one example.

You see, we've all come to know what is counted as Card Visualization and what isn't based on that fancy feature that didn't do what we had actually asked for in the first place. Gems converting, loyalty and mana trails, cards being drawn, cards being discarded, none of these cause a pop up that would pause the timer and they aren't disabled by the Card Visual Art feature (they are what we wanted disabled btw, as that appears to have been unclear).

There were extremely few infinite loops within the game, a very rarely were they encountered. If I lose to an extreme combo deck that overwhelms me then props to the person who put it together. They obtained the cards and they built that deck. Losing happens. You can't win every match. If they put together a deck that infinitely loops and is never going to actually kill me then again, props to them. I'll have to quit out and I've lost that match. That could very well have been their intention but most often, I see they've put a stop-gap card in there so they can manually stop the combo when they're ready. Greg's just not smart enough to not cast those prompt cards.

Looping is a part of this game and taking steps to alleviate it should be done on a card by card basis for the most blatant offenders. You threw a nuke at it.