*** Doctor Doom (Classic) ***

Ryz-aus

Kolence wrote:

Ryz-aus wrote:

Given that allied powers don't overwrite your traps (see daken/blade with DD to see this in action), doom is an awesome partner for patch now. His passive traps should cover most of the purples on the board, minimizing the amount of enemy strike tiles generated.

This goes with the already good pairing of doom black with berserker rage.

Is it that allied powers don't overwrite your traps or friendly tiles don't overwrite your traps but enemy tiles might even when you supply them with Patch or Elektra?

I think it is that your powers that produce attack, shield, or defense tiles won't overwrite traps you've placed, without regard to whether the actual tile goes to you or your opponent. The idea is you know where the traps you placed are, so your team doesn't overwrite them.

To test this case now, you would need to have something like fury putting enough traps on purple so that less than six are available and then fire berserker rage - if it works the way I expect, patch would not overwrite fury's traps.


Edit: test was easier than I thought - this works. Because of the fury trap, there were only 5 uncovered purples on this board. Firing berserker rage did not make the sixth purple strike tile, because it won't overwrite a friendly trap. Same should apply to doom traps.

Unknown

So, basically with Doom's passive all purple tiles should be covered and shooting off Patch's Berserker Rage will now benefit because the odds are now in your favor of having your strike tiles and not opponents, right?

Ryz-aus

kozmikpr wrote:

So, basically with Doom's passive all purple tiles should be covered and shooting off Patch's Berserker Rage will now benefit because the odds are now in your favor of having your strike tiles and not opponents, right?

Yes, that's correct. If you are patient, you should be able to wait and fire berserker rage when the only tiles that the purple strike tiles can appear on are in positions where they can be matched away before the opponent turn.

Phaserhawk

I don't care what others say on purple, it's too good not to max. Meaning you only have 3 build options IMO 5/3/5, 4/4/5, and 5/3/5. Each one of those has it's merits.

If you pair Doom exclusively with X-Force then 3/5/5 makes the most sense

If you pair Doom exclusively with 4hor then 5/3/5 makes the most sense

If you pair doom with both 4/4/5 is a nice in between.

Now for reality. If you pair him with X-Force are you really going to be chasing blue? And how much of a difference is there between 3 blue and 4 blue and 5 blue?

Well 5 blue obviously you never have to worry, but at 4 blue changing 9 tiles means that 43% of the time you could have changed 1 more tile, 30% of the time 2 tiles, 19% of the time 3 more tiles. Now with 4hor, if you end up having enough black to cast Summon Demons they will plug up red tiles thus Power Surge won't be able to power up as many red tiles. Either way I think Doom is too slow for PvP which means he moves to the PvE world.

I will basically get him to 5 purple and will probably lean towards the 5/3/5 or 4/4/5 build as I think that works best in PvE

wymtime

kozmikpr wrote:

So, basically with Doom's passive all purple tiles should be covered and shooting off Patch's Berserker Rage will now benefit because the odds are now in your favor of having your strike tiles and not opponents, right?

I would think this would be the opposit and that Patch would be a great counter to doom. If you run Doom and Patch, Doom will lay trap tiles, but when Patch fires BR since they are now enemy strike tiles they will disarm the traps.

On the flip side if you are running Patch against Doom and Doom has attack tiles out BR will not overwrite the traps as for Doom they will be friendly tiles and Friendly Tiles don't overwrite Friendly traps.

I would imagine the same thing would go for Elektra with Double, Double Cross.

Dayv

kozmikpr wrote:

So, basically with Doom's passive all purple tiles should be covered and shooting off Patch's Berserker Rage will now benefit because the odds are now in your favor of having your strike tiles and not opponents, right?

Patch and Doom: new 3* BFFs.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

I don't care what others say on purple, it's too good not to max. Meaning you only have 3 build options IMO 5/3/5, 4/4/5, and 5/3/5. Each one of those has it's merits.

If you pair Doom exclusively with X-Force then 3/5/5 makes the most sense

If you pair Doom exclusively with 4hor then 5/3/5 makes the most sense

If you pair doom with both 4/4/5 is a nice in between.

Now for reality. If you pair him with X-Force are you really going to be chasing blue? And how much of a difference is there between 3 blue and 4 blue and 5 blue?

Well 5 blue obviously you never have to worry, but at 4 blue changing 9 tiles means that 43% of the time you could have changed 1 more tile, 30% of the time 2 tiles, 19% of the time 3 more tiles. Now with 4hor, if you end up having enough black to cast Summon Demons they will plug up red tiles thus Power Surge won't be able to power up as many red tiles. Either way I think Doom is too slow for PvP which means he moves to the PvE world.

I will basically get him to 5 purple and will probably lean towards the 5/3/5 or 4/4/5 build as I think that works best in PvE

I agree with this. The reason I'm so big on the 4/4/5 build is because of how flexible it is. However, if you plan on using his with a specific person then yeah, go for the 5/3/5 or 3/5/5 build. He will work wonders with Patch tho.

Unknown

There's no way to speculate whether unusual cases of 'friendly' abilities overwrite traps or not. For example Daken's Phermone Rage do not overwrite friendly red traps and is easy to verify, but all of X Force's moves sure doesn't care if the tile it picked is friendly or not. Berserker Rage is a friendly ability that creates negative consequences so it's impossible to predict its behavior without seeing it used.

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

There's no way to speculate whether unusual cases of 'friendly' abilities overwrite traps or not. For example Daken's Phermone Rage do not overwrite friendly red traps and is easy to verify, but all of X Force's moves sure doesn't care if the tile it picked is friendly or not. Berserker Rage is a friendly ability that creates negative consequences so it's impossible to predict its behavior without seeing it used.

Wat. X-Force's abilities explicitly destroys tiles. Pheromone rage and patch tiles simply convert the basic tiles to strike tiles: it seems pretty obvious that patch / daken will not overwrite friendly traps.

thedarkphoenix

If doctor doom is in a group he pretty much forces you to kill him 1st if the damage and stuff stays like this. Mess around and try and take out someone else 1st and you could loose a character instantly. Granted it would take atleast 5-6 turns in unless you boost with purple...still nasty

Phaserhawk

ecir2002 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I don't care what others say on purple, it's too good not to max. Meaning you only have 3 build options IMO 5/3/5, 4/4/5, and 5/3/5. Each one of those has it's merits.

If you pair Doom exclusively with X-Force then 3/5/5 makes the most sense

If you pair Doom exclusively with 4hor then 5/3/5 makes the most sense

If you pair doom with both 4/4/5 is a nice in between.

Now for reality. If you pair him with X-Force are you really going to be chasing blue? And how much of a difference is there between 3 blue and 4 blue and 5 blue?

Well 5 blue obviously you never have to worry, but at 4 blue changing 9 tiles means that 43% of the time you could have changed 1 more tile, 30% of the time 2 tiles, 19% of the time 3 more tiles. Now with 4hor, if you end up having enough black to cast Summon Demons they will plug up red tiles thus Power Surge won't be able to power up as many red tiles. Either way I think Doom is too slow for PvP which means he moves to the PvE world.

I will basically get him to 5 purple and will probably lean towards the 5/3/5 or 4/4/5 build as I think that works best in PvE

I agree with this. The reason I'm so big on the 4/4/5 build is because of how flexible it is. However, if you plan on using his with a specific person then yeah, go for the 5/3/5 or 3/5/5 build. He will work wonders with Patch tho.

Yeah, I do believe that 4/4/5 offers the most flexibility, I mean Summon Demons is a pretty expensive skill and it's only going to do 1140 per turn assuming maxed and nothing destroyed. His purple is really nice, it just sits there building up charges and then when you get there, bam, death pretty much. The upgrade from 4 to 5 blue is very minimal when compared to black, the question is how often are you going to cast Technopathic Stike? In what situation is that the blue skill to use? You don't want it if you are running 4hor,C.Mags, Fury, Daken, and some others but then again whe do you want Summon Demons? He's like a beefier but **** version of Blade but I think 4/4/5 does give him the most flexibility with the least amount of sacrifice

eidehua

Wow, I think I'm going to really love Patch + Doom. Since doom is creating purple traps every turn, you can cast Patch green (probably) a lot earlier than you would with DD (purple)/4thor(yellow)/Loki (Black), especially without boosts. And the earlier you can cast Patch green without giving the enemy a benefit, the better

NorthernPolarity

Phaserhawk wrote:

ecir2002 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I don't care what others say on purple, it's too good not to max. Meaning you only have 3 build options IMO 5/3/5, 4/4/5, and 5/3/5. Each one of those has it's merits.

If you pair Doom exclusively with X-Force then 3/5/5 makes the most sense

If you pair Doom exclusively with 4hor then 5/3/5 makes the most sense

If you pair doom with both 4/4/5 is a nice in between.

Now for reality. If you pair him with X-Force are you really going to be chasing blue? And how much of a difference is there between 3 blue and 4 blue and 5 blue?

Well 5 blue obviously you never have to worry, but at 4 blue changing 9 tiles means that 43% of the time you could have changed 1 more tile, 30% of the time 2 tiles, 19% of the time 3 more tiles. Now with 4hor, if you end up having enough black to cast Summon Demons they will plug up red tiles thus Power Surge won't be able to power up as many red tiles. Either way I think Doom is too slow for PvP which means he moves to the PvE world.

I will basically get him to 5 purple and will probably lean towards the 5/3/5 or 4/4/5 build as I think that works best in PvE

I agree with this. The reason I'm so big on the 4/4/5 build is because of how flexible it is. However, if you plan on using his with a specific person then yeah, go for the 5/3/5 or 3/5/5 build. He will work wonders with Patch tho.

Yeah, I do believe that 4/4/5 offers the most flexibility, I mean Summon Demons is a pretty expensive skill and it's only going to do 1140 per turn assuming maxed and nothing destroyed. His purple is really nice, it just sits there building up charges and then when you get there, bam, death pretty much. The upgrade from 4 to 5 blue is very minimal when compared to black, the question is how often are you going to cast Technopathic Stike? In what situation is that the blue skill to use? You don't want it if you are running 4hor,C.Mags, Fury, Daken, and some others but then again whe do you want Summon Demons? He's like a beefier but **** version of Blade but I think 4/4/5 does give him the most flexibility with the least amount of sacrifice

I don't really believe in this. Here are some, semi relevant stats on cascade potentials with technopathic strike.

Technopathic Strike - Blue 9 AP
Doctor Doom lashes out with his sinister inventions, swaying the battle in his favor. Transforms 6 basic Blue tiles to Black tiles.
Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.512268
Average tiles destroyed: 4.201884
Average Tiles destroyed by color:
BLUE: 0.100682 tiles destroyed
YELLOW: 0.31765 tiles destroyed
TEAMUP: 0.313732 tiles destroyed
RED: 0.317342 tiles destroyed
PURPLE: 0.316376 tiles destroyed
GREEN: 0.313246 tiles destroyed
BLACK: 2.522856 tiles destroyed

Level 2: Transforms 7 tiles. robability of a cascade occurring: 0.575122 Average tiles destroyed: 5.109416 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.10473 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.391226 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.391518 tiles destroyed RED: 0.390358 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.386444 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.389048 tiles destroyed BLACK: 3.056092 tiles destroyed Level 3: Transforms 8 tiles. Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.624556 Average tiles destroyed: 5.984008 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.102096 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.462784 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.462774 tiles destroyed RED: 0.464472 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.462226 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.461336 tiles destroyed BLACK: 3.56832 tiles destroyed Level 4: Transforms 9 tiles. Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.660236 Average tiles destroyed: 6.743458 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.097204 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.526532 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.52636 tiles destroyed RED: 0.526658 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.526934 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.529698 tiles destroyed BLACK: 4.010072 tiles destroyed Level 5: Transforms all basic Blue tiles. Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.708704 Average tiles destroyed: 8.303106 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.072712 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.659816 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.659096 tiles destroyed RED: 0.658918 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.659422 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.65993 tiles destroyed BLACK: 4.933212 tiles destroyed

As you can see, on an average board, the difference between blue level 3 and 4 is 4% cascade potential and .74 tiles destroyed on average.

What 4/4/5 does is sacrifice 300 damage on summon demons (which is what, a 35%ish increase from level 4 to level 5 of summon demons) for that super marginal increase. Now, the value of level 5 blue is pretty hard to figure out since my simulations are done on a uniform board and level 5 blue kinda only makes sense on a non uniform board, but I think that you are far better off sticking with 5/3/5 if you care about making summon demons usable, or 3/5/5 if you want Doom to just be a black generator. It doesn't really make sense to go 4/4/5 when the upside on either 5 build is much higher.

Unknown

Ugh...Doom was already one of my least favorite enemies to face in PVE, so the thought of facing him now in the next event when he is inevitably paired with a couple purple feeders *shudders*. I will be shocked if I can make it out of even one of those battles with out at least one hero being dead thanks to this new ability.

Unknown

All of this speculation and strategy is great in regards to Doom being paired with Patch, XF and Lthor. But, am I the only one who is seeing another great character that Doom can be matched with? Grant it, I know with Patch matches can be won a hell of a lot faster due to all the strike tiles. But, with Doom's trap tiles I think he's also great paired with Nick Fury. Think about it, 2 characters having the ability to lay out traps AND blow the opposing team away. Again, I love Patch's strike consistent strike damage, but I am all for Fury's Demolition which you already know does some crazy damage. Then, to top that off you have Dr. Doom's trap tiles. I would imagine by the time you've gathered your blue AP (depending if you boost or not), being that his purple is passive and will be going off every turn, at least 5 of them will be created and laid out. And, if you're the type to iso boost you know you're going to gather up blue and purple AP fairly quickly. Bam, end game right there just like Sentry's Supernova What are your thoughts???

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

ecir2002 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I don't care what others say on purple, it's too good not to max. Meaning you only have 3 build options IMO 5/3/5, 4/4/5, and 5/3/5. Each one of those has it's merits.

If you pair Doom exclusively with X-Force then 3/5/5 makes the most sense

If you pair Doom exclusively with 4hor then 5/3/5 makes the most sense

If you pair doom with both 4/4/5 is a nice in between.

Now for reality. If you pair him with X-Force are you really going to be chasing blue? And how much of a difference is there between 3 blue and 4 blue and 5 blue?

Well 5 blue obviously you never have to worry, but at 4 blue changing 9 tiles means that 43% of the time you could have changed 1 more tile, 30% of the time 2 tiles, 19% of the time 3 more tiles. Now with 4hor, if you end up having enough black to cast Summon Demons they will plug up red tiles thus Power Surge won't be able to power up as many red tiles. Either way I think Doom is too slow for PvP which means he moves to the PvE world.

I will basically get him to 5 purple and will probably lean towards the 5/3/5 or 4/4/5 build as I think that works best in PvE

I agree with this. The reason I'm so big on the 4/4/5 build is because of how flexible it is. However, if you plan on using his with a specific person then yeah, go for the 5/3/5 or 3/5/5 build. He will work wonders with Patch tho.

Yeah, I do believe that 4/4/5 offers the most flexibility, I mean Summon Demons is a pretty expensive skill and it's only going to do 1140 per turn assuming maxed and nothing destroyed. His purple is really nice, it just sits there building up charges and then when you get there, bam, death pretty much. The upgrade from 4 to 5 blue is very minimal when compared to black, the question is how often are you going to cast Technopathic Stike? In what situation is that the blue skill to use? You don't want it if you are running 4hor,C.Mags, Fury, Daken, and some others but then again whe do you want Summon Demons? He's like a beefier but **** version of Blade but I think 4/4/5 does give him the most flexibility with the least amount of sacrifice

I don't really believe in this. Here are some, semi relevant stats on cascade potentials with technopathic strike.

Technopathic Strike - Blue 9 AP
Doctor Doom lashes out with his sinister inventions, swaying the battle in his favor. Transforms 6 basic Blue tiles to Black tiles.
Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.512268
Average tiles destroyed: 4.201884
Average Tiles destroyed by color:
BLUE: 0.100682 tiles destroyed
YELLOW: 0.31765 tiles destroyed
TEAMUP: 0.313732 tiles destroyed
RED: 0.317342 tiles destroyed
PURPLE: 0.316376 tiles destroyed
GREEN: 0.313246 tiles destroyed
BLACK: 2.522856 tiles destroyed

Level 2: Transforms 7 tiles. robability of a cascade occurring: 0.575122 Average tiles destroyed: 5.109416 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.10473 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.391226 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.391518 tiles destroyed RED: 0.390358 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.386444 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.389048 tiles destroyed BLACK: 3.056092 tiles destroyed Level 3: Transforms 8 tiles. Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.624556 Average tiles destroyed: 5.984008 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.102096 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.462784 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.462774 tiles destroyed RED: 0.464472 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.462226 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.461336 tiles destroyed BLACK: 3.56832 tiles destroyed Level 4: Transforms 9 tiles. Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.660236 Average tiles destroyed: 6.743458 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.097204 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.526532 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.52636 tiles destroyed RED: 0.526658 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.526934 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.529698 tiles destroyed BLACK: 4.010072 tiles destroyed Level 5: Transforms all basic Blue tiles. Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.708704 Average tiles destroyed: 8.303106 Average Tiles destroyed by color: BLUE: 0.072712 tiles destroyed YELLOW: 0.659816 tiles destroyed TEAMUP: 0.659096 tiles destroyed RED: 0.658918 tiles destroyed PURPLE: 0.659422 tiles destroyed GREEN: 0.65993 tiles destroyed BLACK: 4.933212 tiles destroyed

As you can see, on an average board, the difference between blue level 3 and 4 is 4% cascade potential and .74 tiles destroyed on average.

What 4/4/5 does is sacrifice 300 damage on summon demons (which is what, a 35%ish increase from level 4 to level 5 of summon demons) for that super marginal increase. Now, the value of level 5 blue is pretty hard to figure out since my simulations are done on a uniform board and level 5 blue kinda only makes sense on a non uniform board, but I think that you are far better off sticking with 5/3/5 if you care about making summon demons usable, or 3/5/5 if you want Doom to just be a black generator. It doesn't really make sense to go 4/4/5 when the upside on either 5 build is much higher.

My thinking with the blue is how many times can you use it in combat where there will be more than 9 blue tiles on the board? Say the first time you use it 13 tiles are converted. After that I don't think there will be more than 9 again. I could be wrong, but I was figuring that it would be like Loki's purple where the 5th cover wouldn't matter as much.

Unknown

As stated previously the enemy strike tiles created by Patch are, well, enemie's tiles. Almost sure they WILL override Doom's traps. Also you need four purple matches to fire it off and this means less 12 purple tiles. You WILL match your own traps to get enough AP to use it or else it's an useless power. So... not a great power IMO. Cool looking the numbers but by the time you can use it theres almost no traps and/or enough tiles to be worth using.

Wanna see an original way to make it better and unique? Make traps on . Hell, even tiles. THAT would be an awesome power. Hard countered by Mags? It's life, happens. Just dont pick Doom vs Mags and you will be fine.

eidehua

ShionSinX wrote:

As stated previously the enemy strike tiles created by Patch are, well, enemie's tiles. Almost sure they WILL override Doom's traps. Also you need four purple matches to fire it off and this means less 12 purple tiles. You WILL match your own traps to get enough AP to use it or else it's an useless power. So... not a great power IMO. Cool looking the numbers but by the time you can use it theres almost no traps and/or enough tiles to be worth using.

Check the image in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=757&start=160#p275446

(Also you don't have to use your purple right away, you can wait for purple to refill if you feel you won't get enough damage off)

Unknown

Oh nice, at least for that they are useful. Still think it needed another color for traps and not same as the power itself.

NorthernPolarity

ecir2002 wrote:

My thinking with the blue is how many times can you use it in combat where there will be more than 9 blue tiles on the board? Say the first time you use it 13 tiles are converted. After that I don't think there will be more than 9 again. I could be wrong, but I was figuring that it would be like Loki's purple where the 5th cover wouldn't matter as much.

By that logic, wouldn't the 4th blue cover not matter as much either? 8 is still a lot of tiles, and you really do lose a lot by not making summon demons usable at 5 black.