*** Loki (Dark Reign) ***

NorthernPolarity

kalirion wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Ran the numbers for using illusions right after polarizing force (meaning board basically has smallest amount of TU tiles possible) - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18598.
Turns out that the difference between level 3 illusions and level 5 illusions is 86% -> 87.7% cascade chance happening and 10.5->11.2 tiles destroyed on average. Keep in mind that this is the best case scenario for level 5 illusions.

The original numbers are done on a randomized board, which will have 9 TUs on average causing level 5 illusions to swap ~55 tiles, which is marginally more than level 4, which is why those numbers are so close together.

This cements 3 purple, 5 black, 5 green Loki for me. I would much rather have the option to use black to swing the entire board than an extra 1.7% cascade chance and .7 tiles when using it after polarizing force, and basically near no benefit when used without polarizing force.

How about making hard-to-reach tiles - an impending countdown or whatever - more reachable? Is it still about the same chance, since even if a tile doesn't move, matching tiles might be moved close to it?

Don't think higher level of illusions would make this better either. The simulator unfortunately isn't sophisticated enough to test for this... yet.

Unknown

We have to wait until people have time to try it out both on offense and defense.

However, I think you are way underestimating this ability. On offense, it would trigger relatively often. Many times there are two possible match-4 options. You take the better one and leave the other one to the AI. The AI makes many match-4s due to cascades or abilities. Also, if there's just one match-4 on a bad color (both for you and AI), you can just let the AI have it for the moderate but worthwhile risk of the AI getting a cascade.

On defense, it's... very unsettling to say the least. Knowing that you cannot make match-4s or you might pay with AP is quite a constraint.

My first thought when I first saw it was that it is OP. I think this may become a severe condition when you go against him, but we'll have to see. However, I praise the devs for trying something a little new and for giving Loki a well deserved 3rd ability.

wymtime

Loki's new power is not the issue for Loki. This is a passive that can drag the game out and when a cascade hits you can potentially steal a lot of AP. The issue is he has 0 offensive capabilities. In the new meta game I have seen less and less strike/attack/defense tile generators. I see a lot of X-Force thor, cap, hood. So trickery might not be as usefull. Now if you do see a Daken, Blade, Patch trickery can be really nice. Overall he is still mid to lower tier. A select few will swear by him and use him to steal AP, and board shake up. He is usefull, but most people probably have someone better to bring along than him.

NorthernPolarity

wymtime wrote:

Loki's new power is not the issue for Loki. This is a passive that can drag the game out and when a cascade hits you can potentially steal a lot of AP. The issue is he has 0 offensive capabilities. In the new meta game I have seen less and less strike/attack/defense tile generators. I see a lot of X-Force thor, cap, hood. So trickery might not be as usefull. Now if you do see a Daken, Blade, Patch trickery can be really nice. Overall he is still mid to lower tier. A select few will swear by him and use him to steal AP, and board shake up. He is usefull, but most people probably have someone better to bring along than him.

The metagame is pretty irrelevant at this time because XF and Thor obsolete every single 3* in PvP. The two situations you specifically should think about now for 3*s are:
1. How does this character perform in his featured tournament (pretty well I would say, denying opponent match-4s is hella annoying on D).
2. How does this character perform in PvE (Daken/Bullseye sniper, cascade generator, definite inbetween A and B teamer).

MarcusGraves

wirius wrote:

However, match 4's are exciting, they're supposed to be rare events, and sometimes gambles that can be rewarding.

match 4's aren't that rare though, I can get around 4-7 match 4's in most games, making the proc condition for this passive incredibly good since it will also work on match 5's.

since it will function like speed shot, once those tiles finish counting down they will vanish making it possible to get more AP though cascades. also should be noted that there isn't mention of a limit on how many times the passive can proc in one turn, if the AI or a player makes an accidental cascade where they get multiple 4 matches then these tiles will be covering the board.

scottee

This actually may end up being the worse defensive ability to face in the game.

If a 3* had OBW's Recon, it would be one of the most powerful abilities in the game. But at least you can deny purple.

With Mischief, you can set up the board so there are constantly no match-4 opportunities with the tiles on the board. But you can't account for the tiles that drop down. Every single match you make has the potential to create match-4.

It's also a strong deterrent against all board smashing abilities.

I think he'll probably end up close to the top of the "kill first" list, possibly right behind Hood.

(Looking forward to the hilarity of the next Loki PVP, with Illusions inspired AP steal mayhem.)

Unknown

Defensively, his new power seems painful to OCD. Considering how many of us players have OCD, I'm surprised they let this sort of power into the game.

Offensively, I'm more used to not leaving/creating match-4 opportunities than purposefully giving them to the AI. Will definitely be a head adjustment.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Loki's new power is not the issue for Loki. This is a passive that can drag the game out and when a cascade hits you can potentially steal a lot of AP. The issue is he has 0 offensive capabilities. In the new meta game I have seen less and less strike/attack/defense tile generators. I see a lot of X-Force thor, cap, hood. So trickery might not be as usefull. Now if you do see a Daken, Blade, Patch trickery can be really nice. Overall he is still mid to lower tier. A select few will swear by him and use him to steal AP, and board shake up. He is usefull, but most people probably have someone better to bring along than him.

The metagame is pretty irrelevant at this time because XF and Thor obsolete every single 3* in PvP. The two situations you specifically should think about now for 3*s are:
1. How does this character perform in his featured tournament (pretty well I would say, denying opponent match-4s is hella annoying on D).
2. How does this character perform in PvE (Daken/Bullseye sniper, cascade generator, definite inbetween A and B teamer).

Metagame varies depending on where you are at. Obviously, XForce, 4Thor is where it is at. But a vast majority of the playerbase does not have either of those remotely usable. For those of us still pushing for top25 and using shields, the question is if they are part of the team you hop with. Right now, my fastest team is Hulk/Patch. However, with the right featured, I would consider using Patch/Loki for the following reason. I think the new Loki will be very underestimated on defense and I may be more likely to pick up some defensive points. While I can only get in 2 attacks on a shield hop, I can win an unlimited number of defenses.

Until I get my hands on a green cover (Gauntlet here I come), I have no idea how strong his passive really is. On paper, I think it is reasonably strong. And any character that is underestimated by the playerbase has a good chance to provide defensive points.

Unknown

And to point out this power is triggered on the opponent turn meaning that each Countdown is actuality one less.

wymtime

NorthernPolarity wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Loki's new power is not the issue for Loki. This is a passive that can drag the game out and when a cascade hits you can potentially steal a lot of AP. The issue is he has 0 offensive capabilities. In the new meta game I have seen less and less strike/attack/defense tile generators. I see a lot of X-Force thor, cap, hood. So trickery might not be as usefull. Now if you do see a Daken, Blade, Patch trickery can be really nice. Overall he is still mid to lower tier. A select few will swear by him and use him to steal AP, and board shake up. He is usefull, but most people probably have someone better to bring along than him.

The metagame is pretty irrelevant at this time because XF and Thor obsolete every single 3* in PvP. The two situations you specifically should think about now for 3*s are:
1. How does this character perform in his featured tournament (pretty well I would say, denying opponent match-4s is hella annoying on D).
2. How does this character perform in PvE (Daken/Bullseye sniper, cascade generator, definite inbetween A and B teamer).

Fair points lets look at each one.
1. How does this character perform in his featured tournament (pretty well I would say, denying opponent match-4s is hella annoying on D).In PVP he realy counters himself with his purple. When he is on Defense his purple will go off and the player will get an opportunity to get AP steal from the CD tiles generated. This might make him easier to defend in PVP becase he will constantly make match 4's while the player can ignor the ability until Loki is dead. He is not bad, just and interesting tidbit. He basicly defends himself.
2. How does this character perform in PvE (Daken/Bullseye sniper, cascade generator, definite inbetween A and B teamer). I would rate him B-C. For PVE I would lable Loki as a support character. The Support characters I would bring before Loki are: Hood, Falcon, OBW, Msytique, Spiderman, Captain Marvel. Loki has a place in the game, but I think he will makes a better villian and opponent in PVE than he does as an A lister on a players team.

Unknown

While normally moving the tile around the world and moving the world around the tile is the same, if a hard to reach tile is at say the bottom right corner, there are exactly 2 ways to make a match 3 there. So regardless of how the world is moved around it, there are still only 2 possible ways to make a match 3 based on the new world. It'd almost always be better to be able to move a tile out of that spot to somewhere near the middle where there are much more ways to make a match 3 irrespective of the board state.

Unknown

I don't know about you guys, but there are times when I'll actually let the AI make a match 4 instead of me, if I think it'll set me up with a better color match. I'd rather the AI get a match 4 that it doesn't actually need, than take it myself if I don't actually need it, especially if it'll open up a red or green match for me, and now especially if it'll also drop a countdown for AP steal. I think it'll force people to expand their strategy beyond the "If there's a match 4 I have to take it."

Unknown

And with Loki, you are likely covering all colors in powers. He has a Purple and a Black, something missing from a lot of 166 teams, or at least Illusions for a Thor/XF team. So no matter what AP you get, it can be used.

When I first read the power I thought it took the color of the match 4, not random. Now I definitely want it at 5 covers, with 3 Trickery, since Trickery is 11 AP always now. 8 AP for 0 cost is huge. Granted, you give up 4 random AP to the AI to let them take match 4s, and I will still take any or ones but he can gladly have the purple ones if it lets me steal AP.

scottee

Stealing 8 AP is actually a 16 AP swing by the way. They lose 8, you gain 8. Of course you have to account for the AP earned in the match-4 and cascade.

GuntherBlobel

The only thing I don't like is the missed opportunity to give Loki an ability that scales with level. Otherwise, I'm keen to try it out. Illusions works fine at Lvl 3, so I could definitely see going to Lvl 5 with Mischief.

FaustianDeal

Can I have the OP's Green Loki draws? He doesn't seem to want them... but I definitely do.

It is a shame this power is neither offensive, nor scales with level. But saying it is awful sells it short.

I am excited by the prospect of running either a 5/3/5 or 4/4/5 loki as part of my scarecrow team in PVP.

I know my play strategy relies heavily on getting AP fast and firing powers with board-shake-up. Cascades are my friend. Until Loki joins the fray.

Suddenly, running X-Force - I am concerned at the prospect of firing either Surgical Strike *or* X-Force when the end result will leave a death-dealer still standing on the opposing team. Powers renowned for generating secondary damage from cascades now become vectors for big chunks of my AP to vanish and be used against me.

There is also this factor...

doloriel wrote:

And to point out this power is triggered on the opponent turn meaning that each Countdown is actuality one less.

The countdown drops from 2->1 almost instantly, its more like laying down a 1-turn countdown on your own turn - calling it a 2-turn countdown is a little misleading - those countdowns are going to pop uncomfortably fast.

Ben Grimm wrote:

It doesn't make him Hood, but it's going to be effective.

The counter for Hood is easy, bring your own. The counter for Loki is different. You either handicap your play by denying yourself match-4 and match-5, and restricting your use of board-shake-up powers - or you prioritize downing Loki (which leaves the death-dealers standing while you dole out ~6k damage to deal with Loki).

Hood's impact is also easier to anticipate... you can count tiles on the board and know what you are going to lose when your turn ends. If all 4 of Loki's countdowns go off you could lose nothing, or you could 8 AP from the same color. (If I have 6 green and I make a green match against Hood - I still know I will be able to fire X-Force's green power whether hood steals or not ... 9-1 is still 8.. but if Loki's countdowns go off I could still have 9, or I could have 1.)

The randomness is unsavory from an offensive standpoint, but that same randomness should be at least a little intimidating when you see him on the other team.

Unknown

I don't know about you, but the computer gets a ton of random drop in 4 matches on me anyway.

It would be nice to benefit from them for once.

GTannen73

FaustianDeal wrote:

If all 4 of Loki's countdowns go off you could lose nothing, or you could 8 AP from the same color.

If I understand it correctly, they've coded it to only steal from colors you actually have, so it's nastier than other AP steals/drains.

IceIX

Nothing wrong with this thread in and of itself. Great conversation overall. But there's both an already running thread just above this in General talking about Loki's power and his own Character Discussion thread. Locking to keep it all in one place.

Unknown

Locking threads with titles critical of new character powers seems...awful.