*** Loki (Dark Reign) ***

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  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2014
    Ran the numbers for using illusions right after polarizing force (meaning board basically has smallest amount of TU tiles possible) - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18598.
    Turns out that the difference between level 3 illusions and level 5 illusions is 86% -> 87.7% cascade chance happening and 10.5->11.2 tiles destroyed on average. Keep in mind that this is the best case scenario for level 5 illusions.

    The original numbers are done on a randomized board, which will have 9 TUs on average causing level 5 illusions to swap ~55 tiles, which is marginally more than level 4, which is why those numbers are so close together.

    This cements 3 purple, 5 black, 5 green Loki for me. I would much rather have the option to use black to swing the entire board than an extra 1.7% cascade chance and .7 tiles when using it after polarizing force, and basically near no benefit when used without polarizing force.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    wow, so even after a Polarizing Force it doesn't really matter, I guess than maybe 5 black is the way to go
  • hex706f726368
    hex706f726368 Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
    Just to give props for giving this new cover away in a gauntlet style event.
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,601 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ran the numbers for using illusions right after polarizing force (meaning board basically has smallest amount of TU tiles possible) - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18598.
    Turns out that the difference between level 3 illusions and level 5 illusions is 86% -> 87.7% cascade chance happening and 10.5->11.2 tiles destroyed on average. Keep in mind that this is the best case scenario for level 5 illusions.

    The original numbers are done on a randomized board, which will have 9 TUs on average causing level 5 illusions to swap ~55 tiles, which is marginally more than level 4, which is why those numbers are so close together.

    This cements 3 purple, 5 black, 5 green Loki for me. I would much rather have the option to use black to swing the entire board than an extra 1.7% cascade chance and .7 tiles when using it after polarizing force, and basically near no benefit when used without polarizing force.

    One quick question. Not sure if this affects outcomes or not, but are all the tiles to be swapped chosen at the beginning? Meaning, if 64 tiles were to be swapped (regardless of TU), would every single tile move? Or does it rechoose after a move, meaning some times can move multiple times and some don't move at all?

    Not sure if this would make a different in cascade chance. I suspect not.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    scottee wrote:
    Ran the numbers for using illusions right after polarizing force (meaning board basically has smallest amount of TU tiles possible) - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18598.
    Turns out that the difference between level 3 illusions and level 5 illusions is 86% -> 87.7% cascade chance happening and 10.5->11.2 tiles destroyed on average. Keep in mind that this is the best case scenario for level 5 illusions.

    The original numbers are done on a randomized board, which will have 9 TUs on average causing level 5 illusions to swap ~55 tiles, which is marginally more than level 4, which is why those numbers are so close together.

    This cements 3 purple, 5 black, 5 green Loki for me. I would much rather have the option to use black to swing the entire board than an extra 1.7% cascade chance and .7 tiles when using it after polarizing force, and basically near no benefit when used without polarizing force.

    One quick question. Not sure if this affects outcomes or not, but are all the tiles to be swapped chosen at the beginning? Meaning, if 64 tiles were to be swapped (regardless of TU), would every single tile move? Or does it rechoose after a move, meaning some times can move multiple times and some don't move at all?

    Not sure if this would make a different in cascade chance. I suspect not.

    If you look carefully, all the tiles to be swapped are chosen at the beginning.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    wow, so even after a Polarizing Force it doesn't really matter, I guess than maybe 5 black is the way to go
    When I use illusions I either want to make matches in a color I'm seeking available when they weren't before, or move a special tile. I don't use it "expecting" a cascade so those statistics don 't really matter to me...
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    gamar wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    wow, so even after a Polarizing Force it doesn't really matter, I guess than maybe 5 black is the way to go
    When I use illusions I either want to make matches in a color I'm seeking available when they weren't before, or move a special tile. I don't use it "expecting" a cascade so those statistics don 't really matter to me...

    You can reason it as if the chance of a cascade increases marginally from 3 to 5 (and a cascade is basically moving tiles exactly to the position where a potential match on a color you want or special tile) increases this marginally, then the chance of it doing what you said cant increase by much either.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    The way I see it

    3 blacktile.png / 5 purpletile.png / 5 greentile.png

    will only be a prefered build is if Loki plays better than expected and he earns a spot next to X-Force

    aside from that I think 4/4/5 or 5/3/5 are probably the way to go. The only reason I would maybe opt 4/4/5 is that the number of times you are going to be able to steal more than 5 tiles is rare, but as shown the upgrade from 3 to 4 to 5 purple is marginal, so IMO wether you are 5/3/5, 4/4/5 or even 3/5/5 you probably won't see a difference in play for either one of those builds in 98% of the games you play.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    The way I see it

    3 blacktile.png / 5 purpletile.png / 5 greentile.png

    will only be a prefered build is if Loki plays better than expected and he earns a spot next to X-Force

    aside from that I think 4/4/5 or 5/3/5 are probably the way to go. The only reason I would maybe opt 4/4/5 is that the number of times you are going to be able to steal more than 5 tiles is rare, but as shown the upgrade from 3 to 4 to 5 purple is marginal, so IMO wether you are 5/3/5, 4/4/5 or even 3/5/5 you probably won't see a difference in play for either one of those builds in 98% of the games you play.

    I agree that it's marginal either way. The deciding factor for me is that the 2% cascade chance and .7 tiles destroyed ONLY applies for using it after polarizing. In the event that you just use illusions on a standard board, your results will look like using the ability normally, which is a like 1% difference and .2 tiles destroyed, which is even more ridiculously marginal. I could see a Daken / Bullseye node where they put out more than 5 tiles, in which case trickery becomes insane for that one node, which is probably better than level 5 illusions being 1% better in all cases.
  • While I would have liked to see a third color for Doctor Doom first, I have to say I'm digging the new Loki!
  • Ran the numbers for using illusions right after polarizing force (meaning board basically has smallest amount of TU tiles possible) - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18598.
    Turns out that the difference between level 3 illusions and level 5 illusions is 86% -> 87.7% cascade chance happening and 10.5->11.2 tiles destroyed on average. Keep in mind that this is the best case scenario for level 5 illusions.

    The original numbers are done on a randomized board, which will have 9 TUs on average causing level 5 illusions to swap ~55 tiles, which is marginally more than level 4, which is why those numbers are so close together.

    This cements 3 purple, 5 black, 5 green Loki for me. I would much rather have the option to use black to swing the entire board than an extra 1.7% cascade chance and .7 tiles when using it after polarizing force, and basically near no benefit when used without polarizing force.

    How about making hard-to-reach tiles - an impending countdown or whatever - more reachable? Is it still about the same chance, since even if a tile doesn't move, matching tiles might be moved close to it?
  • wirius
    wirius Posts: 667
    Perhaps someone can give me an alternate reasoning, but I think Loki's new power is...awful.

    Mischief - PASSIVE greentile.png
    (PASSIVE) Loki is consumed by a cold rage as he moves to undermine his enemies. If the enemy team makes a match-4 of any color, Loki converts 2 basic tiles of that color into 4-turn Countdown tiles which steal 2 AP of a random color.

    Level Upgrades
    Level 2: Countdown tiles last 3 turns.
    Level 3: Loki creates 3 Countdown tiles.
    Level 4: Countdown tiles last 2 turns.
    Level 5: Loki creates 4 Countdown tiles.


    Reasons:

    1. On offence, this relies on letting your opponent match four in a row, and there's very little strategic incentive to let them do so.

    Upon matching 4, you get the entire row correct? Well that's the match 4+4 more which means a total of five ap beyond a normal match 3 that you get. That's 5 random ap that the computer cannot counter. Lets say you have 3 green. You have 3 countdown tiles that last 3 turns. Best case, you steal random 6 ap from the opponent 3 turns later, when you could use that 5 random ap next turn instead. Worst case, you get nothing. Average case, you might steal 2-4 ap. 5 green makes a best case 8 ap stolen (rare), average case around 4 two turns later. Finally, CASCADES. Why would I risk a cascade loss, especially vertical, for a gamble at stealing random ap?

    Conclusion: The passive is a happy accident on offence

    2. On defence, you'll never let their Loki get the ability off if there is only one 4 chain.

    All four chains can be matched to a 3 chain. So at best on defense, Loki's new ability means I turn it into a match 3. Woot. If I have a lot of board clear, I still might say to hell with it anyway.

    I'm seriously dissapointed. Loki's current abilities are cool, but fairly underwhelming. I was hoping green would be something special, different, and interesting. Maybe an illusion to gain one of your opponents moves for one turn, or have it so that the next x turns, whatever an opponent matches will do damage, but the ap will go directly to Loki's team. Now THAT would have been a random ap steal that would have been interesting, and really changed the game when facing the champ on defense. Instead, I find a **** passive that will happen rarely in game that at most forces you to turn match 4's into match 3's. You know what's exciting? Matching 4's. You know what's dull? Being forced to match 3's. The optimal move makes the game more dull. This seems like a failure in design.

    Am I wrong? Am I missing something?
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jathro wrote:
    I was really hoping for some sort of offensive ability instead of just more utility/defense. I can't say I'm very excited about the change, but it is long overdue regardless.

    Just you wait for PvE and you are going against Loki and you have a match 4 that creates 4 CD tiles, and you are like, ****!!! and you lose 6 AP which feeds Ares and he dunk's you for 5K, yeah, not looking forward to seeing this guy in PvE
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    you are right, it's not the kind of skill you plan on, but it does place pressure on the other team, effectively Loki is putting a condition on the game, if you match 4 or more you will pay. So in those oh os fun PvE where the AI cascades, a few match 4's a few match 5's and now you are sitting there, Loki has given you an out. If you can survive the AI's onslaught, you will be able to turn it around. He's going to be more useful for early 3* rosters who don't regularly see X-Force because Loki is a nice defensive deterrant.
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,601 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's essentially a reverse of speedshot, except it includes match-4's. Match-4's are faaaar more common than match-5's. They go off on accident almost every match.

    You don't see the advantage on defense of making a player take a match 3 instead of 4? That negates 5 AP, plus cascades.

    On offense, I agree it's not as strong, as you usually take the match-4's anyway. But I'd still gather that the AI gets a random match-4 in more than 50% of matches.

    Consider OBW's Recon. If you use it once at level 3, that essentially turns the tide toward an easy win, and using it twice is a dominant match.

    The fact that it only tries to steal from colors the opponent actually has makes it at least a little useful pretty much every time, and a lot useful a good chunk of the time.

    Plus this is a passive.

    So no, I don't think it's awful.


    EDIT: Also, making an opponent actually think in the match-3 aspect of the game gives you a huge advantage on defense, because over 50% of the player base just thinks "grab color x".
  • 1. The game never misses a match-4. If there is one, they will match it. That means this is going to go off reasonably often.

    2. At 5 covers, it can steal 8 AP for nothing - zero expense on your part

    3. Play a regular game now, and count how many match-4s or match-5s the AI gets. Including in colors that are useless to them. Including TU tiles after they've used their TU. Including cascades. Every one of those will set off his passive.

    4. On defense, if you're making a 3-chain to avoid setting it off, you're likely depriving yourself of at least 5 AP you'd get if you let it go off (you're getting 3, instead of the whole row for 8). So it's working to limit you.

    It doesn't make him Hood, but it's going to be effective.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Where I do like it is how many times do you have it where there is a match 4 on the board but it's in an off color, you generally have to match it because, well because the risk/reward of not matching it is heavy on the risk. However, with Loki the risk/reward sways into a reward for not matching the off color match 4 since you will get a befefit from them getting it. I mean if you are running say X-Force, I'm not going to not match a match 4 green just so I can get some AP steal, but if it was a match 4 blue I would probably leave it and go to get black or green and know the AI will match it and I'll get AP in a few turns.
  • wirius
    wirius Posts: 667
    scottee wrote:
    It's essentially a reverse of speedshot, except it includes match-4's. Match-4's are faaaar more common than match-5's. They go off on accident almost every match.

    You don't see the advantage on defense of making a player take a match 3 instead of 4? That negates 5 AP, plus cascades.

    On offense, I agree it's not as strong, as you usually take the match-4's anyway. But I'd still gather that the AI gets a random match-4 in more than 50% of matches.

    Consider OBW's Recon. If you use it once at level 3, that essentially turns the tide toward an easy win, and using it twice is a dominant match.

    The fact that it only tries to steal from colors the opponent actually has makes it at least a little useful pretty much every time, and a lot useful a good chunk of the time.

    Plus this is a passive.

    So no, I don't think it's awful.

    EDIT: Also, making an opponent actually think in the match-3 aspect of the game gives you a huge advantage on defense, because over 50% of the player base just thinks "grab color x".

    Thanks Scottee. I do agree that yes, forcing you to match a match 3 instead is effective. However, match 4's are exciting. They're supposed to be rare events, and sometimes gambles that can be rewarding. Loki's gameplace forces you to play in a way that lessen's the excitement of the game. I'm not really thinking of a way to get the board a particular way, or planning moves, I'm going, "Well bye bye match 4, here comes a regular ol' 3. I think this is poor design. However, others may disagree with me on this note. Personally, I'm interested in abilities that make the game more exciting, not a drag to play against.

    Drag=Bullseye's passive
    Exciting=Falcon's passive

    And again, they've had so long to think about Loki, and this was the best they could come up with? Regardless, thanks for putting in a good two cents.
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,601 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's a good discussion. I can definitely see how Speed Shot would seem more exciting to most than Mischief. Offense is always more sexy.

    But I actually find defense exciting as well, much more than most. I love going matches and not letting the AI get a single ability off. Denying AP is as much a part of my game as is gathering particular colors.

    At the very least, on offense, you can completely ignore it's there and occasionally steal the enemy's AP for free.

    On defense, people who ignore it are going to feel the hurt.
  • scottee wrote:
    It's essentially a reverse of speedshot, except it includes match-4's.

    It's the reverse of speedshot only in the sense that speedshot is good