Update to Gambit (Classic) Character Update (7/18/18)

HoundofShadow

Gambit movie might be out next year June, so we might get another Gambit.

tph_james

Moon Roach said:

Coming soon: Gambit-only support "Sucks to not have this one", at rank 5 reinstates all Gambit's current powers.

Then it will be the first support worth chasing.. Hahaha

GrimSkald

Basepuzzler said:

GrimSkald said:

Dartmaster01 said:

@ GrimSkald Yeah, firing every single turn without fail is obviously a bit of an exaggeration. At the same time, you're not accounting for the cascades that happen after Thor destroys tiles. I understand why, it's a hard thing to quantify and/or measure due to it's random nature but it does happen and often. I'd say from looking at it from the context of personal play that it's at least 50% of the time. There is no way to know when, what color or how many matches will happen each turn but it's a ton of extra ap on top of the 6 he actually breaks. I don't think there's a way to measure it without using that team though because it's always going to be different than the numbers on paper.

With that said, I really don't care if Gambit's black has the restriction or not. I know it wouldn't be healthy for the game but if they remove it at some point in the future, I'll be one of the worst offenders exploiting it.

Heh, fair enough.  I'm not so sure myself, but you may well be right.  His black is certainly a lot more exploitable without that restriction.

I'm glad they walked back some of the Gambit nerf, to be honest.  I think the current nerf is going to take him well out of the band of "useful for PVP" characters, but he still may have some value in PVE.

But the “useful for PVP” band just got way larger with old gambit gone.  So much so that you can use new gambit in it.

Hmmm.  Maaaaybe?  I think he's going to be too slow, but he may still be good with Bolt (they don't overlap in anything other than passives,) and Hawkeye.

Hawkeye in particular may be decent -- pre-nerf you pretty much just spammed the purple to get rid of enemy tiles and didn't really care if they went off.  Post-nerf, the damage has become a lot more of the point, and Hawkeye will fortify those tiles.  Also, Hawkeye generates charged tiles with his third arrow...

Goblin is another obvious partner for him, though speaking for myself I don't really have one.

The other upside to this is that JJ becomes a lot more viable in PVP, and LumberCap actually has a chance to be used now...

thedarkphoenix

Jonny1Punch said:

This is absolutely ridiculous to see such an OP & broken character receive such pampering with a kid-gloves nerf. You 1st nerfed him with a buff..... then gave him a long overdue nerf that we wanted ..... only to nerf his nerf with another buff before it even went live? Increased his health, more charged tiles for more broken gambolt synergy and a huge upgrade to purple damage. Pure garbage & bad for the health of the game overall not just the 5* tier.

Meanwhile all the barely viable bargain bin classic 5* receive no quality of life upgrades, buffs or long overdue maintenance.

okoye starting health at 450 is about 60,000. Phoenix starting health is 42,000 at 450 and okoye has an amazing power set with disgusting broken gameplay with Thor AND nearly 200% increases in base match damage over Phoenix in one of her primaries? This is beyond power creep this is sloppy game design, development and poor managing of the games highest tier.

Yet OML was absolutely gutted and killed with the biggest overnerf NO ONE ASKED FOR..... and we got horrible compensation with 2:1 “ no more guns “ tokens after spending tons of time and money chasing him.... but gambit is treated like royalty? Shame on you D3 and Devs. Incredibly weak & insulting. You gonna buff all the rest of the 5* tiers health as well so they can “ survive longer fights “ too? Brigby you do a decent job here and not directing this all at you but come on..... how blind is the character Dev team who made gambit and now is buffing the nerf? 

I dont understand this train of thought, you want him nerfed hard like others because the others where nerfed hard? That's not healthy for the game, with these changes gambit is still useful but no longer a one stop shop. 

thedarkphoenix

GrimSkald said:

Basepuzzler said:

GrimSkald said:

Dartmaster01 said:

@ GrimSkald Yeah, firing every single turn without fail is obviously a bit of an exaggeration. At the same time, you're not accounting for the cascades that happen after Thor destroys tiles. I understand why, it's a hard thing to quantify and/or measure due to it's random nature but it does happen and often. I'd say from looking at it from the context of personal play that it's at least 50% of the time. There is no way to know when, what color or how many matches will happen each turn but it's a ton of extra ap on top of the 6 he actually breaks. I don't think there's a way to measure it without using that team though because it's always going to be different than the numbers on paper.

With that said, I really don't care if Gambit's black has the restriction or not. I know it wouldn't be healthy for the game but if they remove it at some point in the future, I'll be one of the worst offenders exploiting it.

Heh, fair enough.  I'm not so sure myself, but you may well be right.  His black is certainly a lot more exploitable without that restriction.

I'm glad they walked back some of the Gambit nerf, to be honest.  I think the current nerf is going to take him well out of the band of "useful for PVP" characters, but he still may have some value in PVE.

But the “useful for PVP” band just got way larger with old gambit gone.  So much so that you can use new gambit in it.

Hmmm.  Maaaaybe?  I think he's going to be too slow, but he may still be good with Bolt (they don't overlap in anything other than passives,) and Hawkeye.

Hawkeye in particular may be decent -- pre-nerf you pretty much just spammed the purple to get rid of enemy tiles and didn't really care if they went off.  Post-nerf, the damage has become a lot more of the point, and Hawkeye will fortify those tiles.  Also, Hawkeye generates charged tiles with his third arrow...

Goblin is another obvious partner for him, though speaking for myself I don't really have one.

The other upside to this is that JJ becomes a lot more viable in PVP, and LumberCap actually has a chance to be used now...

Gambit hawkeye with be a thing again for those that have hawkeye covered. 

MgoBlue51

HoundofShadow said:

Wouldn't that be similar with his previous ability? Generating aps freely.

My problem is the matching away. You get an additional chance to destroy the countdown. If you get a bad board, he could generate no extra AP while still blocking ally abilities. I felt like a 1 turn repeater (not protected) would be a better thing than a 2 turn. 2 turn repeaters, similar to high CD tiles, usually get destroyed before they get to be useful. I was hoping for better on that power, I am cool with everything else. Def not gonna use his red very often though, that’s a huge damage reduction. Time to re spec him

Jaedenkaal

thedarkphoenix said:

Jonny1Punch said:

This is absolutely ridiculous to see such an OP & broken character receive such pampering with a kid-gloves nerf. You 1st nerfed him with a buff..... then gave him a long overdue nerf that we wanted ..... only to nerf his nerf with another buff before it even went live? Increased his health, more charged tiles for more broken gambolt synergy and a huge upgrade to purple damage. Pure garbage & bad for the health of the game overall not just the 5* tier.

Meanwhile all the barely viable bargain bin classic 5* receive no quality of life upgrades, buffs or long overdue maintenance.

okoye starting health at 450 is about 60,000. Phoenix starting health is 42,000 at 450 and okoye has an amazing power set with disgusting broken gameplay with Thor AND nearly 200% increases in base match damage over Phoenix in one of her primaries? This is beyond power creep this is sloppy game design, development and poor managing of the games highest tier.

Yet OML was absolutely gutted and killed with the biggest overnerf NO ONE ASKED FOR..... and we got horrible compensation with 2:1 “ no more guns “ tokens after spending tons of time and money chasing him.... but gambit is treated like royalty? Shame on you D3 and Devs. Incredibly weak & insulting. You gonna buff all the rest of the 5* tiers health as well so they can “ survive longer fights “ too? Brigby you do a decent job here and not directing this all at you but come on..... how blind is the character Dev team who made gambit and now is buffing the nerf? 

I dont understand this train of thought, you want him nerfed hard like others because he others where nerfed hard? That's not healthy for the game, with these changes gambit is still useful but no longer a one stop shop. 

Still bitter, I guess.

vaportrail

When do these changes go live?  Monday?  Beginning of next season on Thursday?

tiomono

I think I'm going to commit to selling my gambit. It will put me back to daredevil being my only 5*. I found the single 5* meta to be pretty fun. So I will stick to just one until I have 2 or 3 more I can champ.

I'm just bummed that there is zero chance to pull a doc ock from the selling of gambit. I find otto to be fun.

Jonny1Punch

My previous post wasn’t me being bitter. I’m quick to praise the game when a great change is implemented and I’m quick to voice my opinion when something smells rotten.

Of course the OML nerf will never sit right with me nor will the thoress/XFW nerf. My time, money and resources were wasted and devalued substantially with the Logan nerf and that will always suck. My money and time are never things I like wasted. I’ve moved on and now I’m looking to ensure that ideas and nerfs are handled fairly across the board without special treatment. Gambit is very clearly receiving special treatment in how he is being reworked more so then any character I’ve ever seen in MPQ. The handling of gambit has gone above and beyond what we all have come to expect from changes .

However, my point here was truly only about the massive disparity between how the nerf was handled as well as compensation and player feedback with OML vs Gambit.

A major disconnect between the devs and the players is obvious here. Along with a huge disregard for older classic 5* and tons of inconsistencies with how the 5* tier is handled regarding buffs & nerfs.

To write off my views as “ angry OML guy” is preposterous. I want balance, fair treatment and consistent precedents set among the 5* tier. With OML a very sloppy and careless nerf was implemented, hence a new precedent for a 5* nerf. With gambit we are seeing the opposite. A very soft, gentle rework that has gone back and forth without even having the change gone live. The prior nerf was generous and should have gone live for a season then been re-evaluated. To increase his health so he can “ survive longer fights “ was the nail in the coffin for me as we have so many glass jawed heroes in the 5* tier with such low health they are decimated within a handful of turns already.

i want gambit balanced and good, but he’s soaked up way too much time in the spotlight already and was already dominant and OP for so long . Time to focus on bringing up older 5s and being far more careful with newer 5s.
 

fmftint

So they give plenty of lead time on the rework ,  take feedback on said rework,  tweek the build based on said feedback,  and your still not happy.

Most players would see this as improvements to the process

Jarvind

This is nice to see. The previously-announced version would have been a complete cripple and not worth using. This version takes him down to where he'll still be usable, but doesn't utterly dominate like he has for far too long.

Jonny1Punch

fmftint said:

So they give plenty of lead time on the rework ,  take feedback on said rework,  tweek the build based on said feedback,  and your still not happy.

Most players would see this as implementers improvements to the prodded process

The previous rework never even went live ....... we never got a chance to put him out in the wild with the previous nerf. Of course I’m unsatisfied the last nerf was very fair with a health increase and a big buff to purple. Because so many people rely solely on gambit and many have him as their only maxed 5* enough people whined & moaned about losing their precious god mode that it worked. They reworked a good nerf that never even got put into effect and we now have a very pampered, soft, kid glove rebalance that keeps gambit very OP and exploitable in many new and old ways.

The reason I cry wolf is two reasons:

1) We have all swarmed this forum with many other better alternatives to past nerfs but we were never listened to until Gambit worshippers came through. Why? How is gambit more important then all other 5* and 4*? 

2) The amount of attention & TLC gambit is receiving is unprecedented. He’s the most OP character ever and the new changes barely address our complaints. He’s pretty much an average human man who throws charged objects yet he murders every other hero including legitimate God’s like Thanos, Surfer and Dark Phoenix ( all 3 on many most powerful T10 lists in marvel ).

None of this adds up. It’s sloppy, inconsistent and lazy character design, development & maintenance all around. 
Gambit is setting a precedent ive never seen before and I’m one of the oldest veterans in the game .

BlackBoltRocks

And yet you still continue to play the game and visit the forums.

JHawkInc

Jonny1Punch said:

fmftint said:

So they give plenty of lead time on the rework ,  take feedback on said rework,  tweek the build based on said feedback,  and your still not happy.

Most players would see this as implementers improvements to the prodded process

The previous rework never even went live ....... we never got a chance to put him out in the wild with the previous nerf. Of course I’m unsatisfied the last nerf was very fair with a health increase and a big buff to purple. Because so many people rely solely on gambit and many have him as their only maxed 5* enough people whined & moaned about losing their precious god mode that it worked. They reworked a good nerf that never even got put into effect and we now have a very pampered, soft, kid glove rebalance that keeps gambit very OP and exploitable in many new and old ways.

The reason I cry wolf is two reasons:

1) We have all swarmed this forum with many other better alternatives to past nerfs but we were never listened to until Gambit worshippers came through. Why? How is gambit more important then all other 5* and 4*? 

2) The amount of attention & TLC gambit is receiving is unprecedented. He’s the most OP character ever and the new changes barely address our complaints. He’s pretty much an average human man who throws charged objects yet he murders every other hero including legitimate God’s like Thanos, Surfer and Dark Phoenix ( all 3 on many most powerful T10 lists in marvel ).

None of this adds up. It’s sloppy, inconsistent and lazy character design, development & maintenance all around. 
Gambit is setting a precedent ive never seen before and I’m one of the oldest veterans in the game .

There are so many things in this post that are speculation stated as fact that it's hard to disect it to form a response.

You're not satisfied that the devs are updating him again because we never got a chance to playtest the last update, but then you state the last update was very fair. By your own reasoning we never got to play the last update and calling it "very fair" is speculation pulled out of thin air.

Then you say they only did it because "so many people rely solely on Gambit" and "many have him as their only maxed 5*", neither of which are things you can prove, and then you belittled those people (that you've just conjured out of thin air) by stating that their complaints are whining and moaning. You're unfairly discrediting a position you can't verify exists in the first place.

Then you repeat the above, claiming it was a good nerf and that the update made Gambit OP again. Despite the fact that we haven't actually gotten to play with either the previous build OR the "current" one. You're doubling down on complaining that we never got to try the last build but it being okay for you to state your assessment of it as fact.

You're two reasons are pretty easy to ****.

1) Being both overpowered and widespread, Gambit IS more important than other characters. It's not a hard concept to grasp. We didn't have this kind of reaction (from the devs) before because we've never had a situation like this before. No other character has been as remotely contentious as Gambit, so it makes perfect sense that the dev response to him would be different. (also, ignoring your erroneous supposition that the forums have provided "many other better alternatives" because the forums are never near as "right" as they think they are, and the unnecessary dig at Gambit fans, which doesn't help your argument)

2) This is just factually incorrect. Nevermind that comic power levels have never had anything to do with character power levels, you're not even remotely close to correct on Gambit's comic power levels in the first place.

There aren't big gaping holes quite like you would like to believe. Nothing indicates this update is sloppy or lazy (I'll give you inconsistent, but when the devs used to be bad talking with the playerbase, and this time are actually trying to hold discussions and listen to feedback before taking drastic steps, inconsistency is a GOOD thing, because they're getting BETTER). Nothing indicates that the effort they're putting into this is lazy.

Gambit IS setting a precedent. It's a precedent that the devs of the ever-silent developers who don't engage with player feedback are gone. And that's a GOOD thing.

The amount of hyperbole people are flinging around on both sides of this discussion is baffling. If the devs are doing anything that doesn't make sense, it's because they're trying to actually engage the forums, and the forums are absolutely bonkers.

ohp5000

gambit in the comics has the potential to be more powerful than phoenix before mr sinister depowered him (at gambits request). one of the most powerful characters in marvel, but they nerfed him in comics as well. 

Pylgrim

So many people here fall under the same mistake that the devs do when balancing characters: they take the very, very best case scenario as the typical and work from there down. "6 ap every 2 turns for FREEE??!?!?!?!!!!111 that's 12 in turn 4, and like 3 trillion ap by turn 10!! They have made him broken again!!!" Except that as anybody who has played with a character with free countdowns (such as Switch or TAHulk) can attest, roughly half of the times those tiles will be matched, destroyed by a line clear, removed by a power, or even more depressingly, you are forced to match it away because there are no other available matches.

And all that for what? If you are putting 5 covers on black to get 6 ap per tick of the repeater and you put 5 covers in purple because that's his best ability now, his red at 3 covers will deal only up to 6k damage. 6k damage for 8 ap!  A /4*/ with that ap-damage ratio would be considered garbage and we are talking about a 5*. But wait! The first time you cast it, the power barely deals any damage at all! To get that fabulous 6k damage you actually need to pay 16 ap. 16 ap for 6k damage. 

"But Pylgrim, the next 6k damage will only cost you 8 ap, which is not great, I guess, but not thaaaat bad." Yeah, again, best case scenario. One or both charged tiles often are destroyed before your next casting of the power and that's now, at power-cost 7 and getting 2 unconditional free red per turn. "Well, nevertheless you still get ap for free, so no matter what you get to do /some/ damage!" Sure: to get 16 ap without making red matches will take 12 turns--as always, under the best case scenario. Most competitive PvP matches are over well before turn 12, one way or the other. "But you still can collect red from matches!" No lie. If I managed to make a red match every turn and have the repeater tile survive through it, I'd be able to collect (and use) 16 ap by turn 5! Conversely, a match of red every turn would allow Jessica to cast her 11.5k damage (plus special tiles) power, Peter Parker his 14k damage power, IWCap his 20k damage power, and Thor his 12-18k power... all by turn /4/. Speaking of Thor, the best character that is not broken like evil, evil Gambit? Everybody plays him at 50% life meaning that he collects free 5 ap every turn. "Well, then just pair Gambit with Black Bolt!" Yeah, sure, that's not yet another definition of best case scenario at all.

With any other character that has one really bad ability, you just shrug, put 3 covers in it, and bring someone with a better power in that colour. With nerfbit? No can do! All those alleged riches of red ap will have to be squandered in what's going to be unarguably one of the worst, most unreliable damaging abilities in 5* land, you like it or not. It also means that (just as it is the case now) you wouldn't play him along characters with red or purple abilities (a significant percentage of existing and future characters) unless their two other abilities are their best. The difference with current Gambit is that you don't care because Gambit can carry much of the weight of the fight by himself (which I'll be the first to admit that it is not ideal either); however, after the nerf... why would you consider bringing Gambit at all? He'll substract from the team rather than adding to it.

"Whatever, he still has that now improved purple power which is amazing!" 30k damage for 11 ap after 3 turns? Yeah, I guess it's not too bad. I mean, some 4*s buffed to level 400 do even better than that but sure, it's quite good... under the best.case.scenario! I've been playing Gambit for 6 months now and I can tell you that whenever I get all 3 CDs to resolve I feel like hi-fiveing a random stranger. it is that rare of an occurrence. More often, 0-2 resolve. Averaging across occurences, you'll be getting around 18k damage from your 11 ap, which for a 5*'s best damaging power is... adequate, maybe?

Did Gambit need a nerf? Yes, he unarguably needed a nerf. Will Nerfbit still be somewhat playable as opposed to being wholly unplayable? Yes, in a vaccuum and preferably under the best case scenarios. In the reality of competitive PvP he's practically unplayable, mostly because almost any other 5* with a red ability is preferable, free ap or not. If Gambit is not going to be a topdog anymore (which is a fair sentiment), then he needs to be a supporting or team player, which the restriction on red and purple powers completely prevents. Y'all afraid that then he'll become a battery for other red powers? Well then balance that. Make those /maaaaybe/ 3 free red every other turn into maaaaybe 2 free red every other turn. What about maaaaybe 1 free red per turn? I mean, will you argue that 4* Wasp is broken?

There are many ways to tweak and tune that power but I'm afraid that any effort to keep as much of the original intent of Gambit (a smug loner who does his own thing) while giving him numbers that won't make the anti-gambitsts riot is only going to result in a Gambit that is too weak and unpractical to use, which is unarguably unfair for Gambit users, especially the people for whom he's the best or only 5* and lack other "meta" characters. Remove the restriction, /then/ balance his free ap taking into account that he'll be a battery. (Then maybe rework his red from something useless that nobody will ever use into a useful passive ability, or something.)

Sm0keyJ0e

But Pylgrim! So many others in this very thread think Gambit is still overpowered! How can we all be so off on this guy?? You think he was neutered, others think he'll still reign supreme... I confoosed.

thedarkphoenix

I truly dont know how anyone can think he's OP. He's still "good" as far as 5 goes but imo, there are only a handful of actual "good" 5's in the 1st place so thats not a bad spot to fall in.

But people saying he's OP still... no....just no. 

Gambit's damage from his red has always been the culprit. People are just still stuck on the fact that he can generate ap...and then when they "nerfed" him his ap destruction 

But so what if you can generate AP if you are the only one that can use the colors and one of the power does really sub par damage and the other is on  3 sec countdown tiles. 


His saving grace might be his health, meaning he might be tanky enough to where people can't just blow through him in pvp. A gambit,thor or okoye team might take a bit to burn through.

Pylgrim

Sm0keyJ0e said:

But Pylgrim! So many others in this very thread think Gambit is still overpowered! How can we all be so off on this guy?? You think he was neutered, others think he'll still reign supreme... I confoosed.

Probably, you know, the people who think he is still overpowered don't have him and haven't played with him, but hate him and wish that he truly was made so bad that they don't have to see him again? Just you wait until the dust settles and they stop seeing Gambit and start seeing Thor all over the place and you'll see those very same people claiming for an equally severe nerf for him.

I truly dont know how anyone can think he's OP. He's still "good" as far as 5 goes but imo, there are only a handful of actual "good" 5's in the 1st place so thats not a bad spot to fall in.

But people saying he's OP still... no....just no. 

Gambit's damage from his red has always been the culprit. People are just still stuck on the fact that he can generate ap...and then when they "nerfed" him his ap destruction 

But so what if you can generate AP if you are the only one that can use the colors and one of the power does really sub par damage and the other is on  3 sec countdown tiles. 


His saving grace might be his health, meaning he might be tanky enough to where people can't just blow through him in pvp. A gambit,thor or okoye team might take a bit to burn through.

How can a character with the worst damage power in red among characters of the same tier be "good"? Also note that his HP is low for the average newer 5* and if memory serves, they are only raising it by like 4k, which barely puts him around the average. He's not "tanky" under any definition of the word.