Wasp (Hope Van Dyne) (6/26/18)

Sm0keyJ0e

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

jneidus

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

I have to believe locked swarm tiles do NOT count. Otherwise, like I mentioned in my original post, you would never be able to get out more than 6.

Let's say they DO count - If you fire Shrink Tactics twice and create 6 locked swarm tiles, the powers convert to Call the Swarm. You would never be able to get more than 6 out. 

I think they don't count until unlocked which may actually not be better for gameplay (the ability to get more than 6, aside). First you have to get enough AP to fire enough powers to create the locked swarm tiles, then you have to unlock the tiles, hoping they don't get matched away after being unlocked, while you build up enough AP to fire Call the Swarm. 

jneidus

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

Which part was confirmed?

Sm0keyJ0e

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

Which part was confirmed?

Swarmed tiles that are locked are still swarm tiles for the sake of "call the swarm".

justsing

broll said:

Also I get that they chose Wasp due to pride month but I’m bummed. I have suggested a 5* Ant-Man and/or Giant-Man in every character suggested. Maybe we’ll get it for DVD release. 

When did they say they chose Wasp due to Pride Month? I just assumed it was either she was the bigger part of the movie (I haven’t seen it so I have no idea if this is accurate or not) or they wanted to include more women in the 5* tier (which they should).

ETA: It would be great if she were lgbtqia+; I just haven’t seen anything that suggests that

Jaedenkaal

Sure. That's a specific exception though, it's not how locked tiles generally behave, which was my main point.

jneidus

Sm0keyJ0e said:

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

Which part was confirmed?

Swarmed tiles that are locked are still swarm tiles for the sake of "call the swarm".

So then my original question plays - how can you ever get more than 6?

Sm0keyJ0e

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

Which part was confirmed?

Swarmed tiles that are locked are still swarm tiles for the sake of "call the swarm".

So then my original question plays - how can you ever get more than 6?

I am not sure--unless this is a limiter based on future releases.

KGB

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

Which part was confirmed?

Swarmed tiles that are locked are still swarm tiles for the sake of "call the swarm".

So then my original question plays - how can you ever get more than 6?

Fire Blue (once or more times creating multiple CD's). Fire Yellow/Black taking you to 4+ and transforming. Wait for the CD's to resolve adding more locked swarm tiles.

There may be other ways.

The Black passive on the heal looks interesting. I wonder if a Champed Kamala Kahn (or other character) healing Wasp for the threshold will trigger the creation of 2 swarm tiles. Seems like it should.

The Yellow looks useless. If she's ever the last character standing (or used as a Crash opponent) she can't fire it at all since she can't target herself.

KGB

MoosePrime

Presumably, you can put multiple Sting Operations countdown tiles on the board, each one creating 2 swarm tiles.

jneidus

KGB said:

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

jneidus said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Jaedenkaal said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.

Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.

Sorry dude, this was confirmed by the character designer.

Which part was confirmed?

Swarmed tiles that are locked are still swarm tiles for the sake of "call the swarm".

So then my original question plays - how can you ever get more than 6?

Fire Blue (once or more times creating multiple CD's). Fire Yellow/Black taking you to 4+ and transforming. Wait for the CD's to resolve adding more locked swarm tiles.

There may be other ways.

The Black passive on the heal looks interesting. I wonder if a Champed Kamala Kahn (or other character) healing Wasp for the threshold will trigger the creation of 2 swarm tiles. Seems like it should.

KGB

Fair. So gather up 12 blue, and 20 yellow, fire blue twice and then yellow twice. Yellow puts out 6 total, converting the powers to Call the Swarm. Blue's CD tiles resolve creating 4 more, making 10 total...actually you would need to gather 18 blue and fire it 3x in order to hit 12. I was thinking if you got healed by KK or Medusa that it would create more swarm tiles, but that's only if the powers haven't converted yet.

This is admittedly way more thought than I put in at first, and way more than I wanted to...

BearVenger

evade420 said:

broll said:

This all sounds great. One question 600kthough. Why have Okoye in the limited vault, she’s still Latest. I would have put Pheonix in her place. 

Because they actually want ppl to buy the tokens 

When I read Women Warriors, I assumed BW5 and Phoenix.

So why do they release something suddenly attractive to us emptying our CP-wallets?

wymtime

@Brigby
for Pain index it says steal health.  Does this mean she just does damage to the enemy and take their health or does she tame the health from the enemy and give it to herself ala healing effect?

Jaedenkaal

wymtime said:

@Brigby
for Pain index it says steal health.  Does this mean she just does damage to the enemy and take their health or does she tame the health from the enemy and give it to herself ala healing effect?

As a follow up to that, if you hit an enemy with 1 HP left, how much health (burst?) does Wasp get? Just the 1, or the whole listed amount?

KGB

Vhailorx_2 said:

So she has a burst healing power, a 10ap targeted invis power, and a random ap steal?  And if you get 4+ swarm tiles on the board, you get the privilege of spending 12ap for 6k damage and some board shake.  At the 5* tier?

(Also. How can you get to 6+ swarm tiles on the board if her powers convert when you get 4+?  Does it only happen at the beginning of the turn?  In which case you need to save up tons of ap and multi-cast?)

Maybe she will prove me wrong in practice, but this character looks pretty weak. 

I agree.

I assume you'll never fire her yellow for the invisible affect. Instead you'll save it for doing the 6K damage plus board shake which leaves the blue/black to get enough swarm tiles to transform.

Presumably (ie it better be) the destroyed tiles from the board shake each do damage which at 4 tiles per swarm tile (itself + 3 others) would be 16+ tiles which could be another several thousand damage given 5* match damage.

Note that the Black power says it steals from the target. So it may also damage them for the amount of health Wasp gains. That would make it vastly better than a plain burst heal and mean that 5/3/5 is the way to go so that you definitely use 12 yellow to do the swarm damage.

KGB

wymtime

Vhailorx_2 said:

So she has a burst healing power, a 10ap targeted invis power, and a random ap steal?  And if you get 4+ swarm tiles on the board, you get the privilege of spending 12ap for 6k damage and some board shake.  At the 5* tier?

(Also. How can you get to 6+ swarm tiles on the board if her powers convert when you get 4+?  Does it only happen at the beginning of the turn?  In which case you need to save up tons of ap and multi-cast?)

Maybe she will prove me wrong in practice, but this character looks pretty weak. 

If you have 1 swarm tile on the board and fire her blue she places a CD time first that will give you 2 swarm tiles.  You then fire her yellow to give you 3 swarm tiles placing 4 on the board.  When the CD tile resolves you get 2 more swarm tiles giving you six.  In a crazy perfect world you could potentially fire yellow with 3 swarm tiles on the board with the CD giving you 8.
 Overall it is doable but hard to get 6+ swarm tiles on the board.

Jaedenkaal

KGB said:

Vhailorx_2 said:

So she has a burst healing power, a 10ap targeted invis power, and a random ap steal?  And if you get 4+ swarm tiles on the board, you get the privilege of spending 12ap for 6k damage and some board shake.  At the 5* tier?

(Also. How can you get to 6+ swarm tiles on the board if her powers convert when you get 4+?  Does it only happen at the beginning of the turn?  In which case you need to save up tons of ap and multi-cast?)

Maybe she will prove me wrong in practice, but this character looks pretty weak. 

I agree.

I assume you'll never fire her yellow for the invisible affect. Instead you'll save it for doing the 6K damage plus board shake which leaves the blue/black to get enough swarm tiles to transform.

Presumably (ie it better be) the destroyed tiles from the board shake each do damage which at 4 tiles per swarm tile (itself + 3 others) would be 16+ tiles which could be another several thousand damage given 5* match damage.

KGB

Of course, that probably means you need Yellow at 5 covers so that it does full damage as Call the Swarm even though you never intend on using it otherwise.

Unless Call the Swarm doesn't scale with covers at all, like Phoenix Force, which would be ideal.

Edit: Actually, do we know for sure she can't Invis herself? BW4s heal is worded similarly, and she can indeed Brush Pass herself.

Brigby

Jaedenkaal said:

wymtime said:

Brigby
for Pain index it says steal health.  Does this mean she just does damage to the enemy and take their health or does she tame the health from the enemy and give it to herself ala healing effect?

As a follow up to that, if you hit an enemy with 1 HP left, how much health (burst?) does Wasp get? Just the 1, or the whole listed amount?

She deals damage to the enemy, and then gives herself burst healing based on the amount of damage she dealt.

I tried this out in a test environment against an enemy with 2000 health remaining. It downed the enemy, and gave her a burst heal of 2000 health.