Wasp (Hope Van Dyne) (6/26/18)

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Comments

  • MoosePrime
    MoosePrime Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    skittledaddy said:
    Winsome, Lose Some... PvP or PvE?
    PvP because it's concurrent with Ultron?
    Winsome, Lose Some is 4* Wasp's PVP event.
  • evade420
    evade420 Posts: 440 Mover and Shaker
    Cactus_Jack_87 said:
    It was confirmed on Discord that the destroyed tiles will not generate AP. Also, I don't think destroyed tiles will stack with increased match damage like they would with strike tiles.

    Hate to say this, but she looks like a complete dud. I hope that I'm wrong, and that she turns out to be a fun and awesome character. Her numbers are just too low and the costs are too high for what little they do.
    well if that's the case then I'm going to have to agree with your assessment... sadness. 
  • Cactus_Jack_87
    Cactus_Jack_87 Posts: 210 Tile Toppler
    Unfortunately, she reminds me a lot of Doc Ock. Looks really fun on paper, but you need an unbelievable amount of AP to actually do anything useful.
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    The key to her usefulness is actually going to be her AP steal. It's not as good as OBW, but 6 Blue to steal 4 random AP is still a net of +2 AP. (-6+4+4)

    Her blue steal into swarm board shake potentially net huge AP gains, but it'll probably depend who she's paired with.

    Overall, the kit doesn't sound great, but could be one of those ones that we don't see the efficiency of the synergy on paper and will have to see her in action.
  • Waddles_Pines
    Waddles_Pines Posts: 1,229 Chairperson of the Boards
    evade420 said:
    Cactus_Jack_87 said:
    It was confirmed on Discord that the destroyed tiles will not generate AP. Also, I don't think destroyed tiles will stack with increased match damage like they would with strike tiles.

    Hate to say this, but she looks like a complete dud. I hope that I'm wrong, and that she turns out to be a fun and awesome character. Her numbers are just too low and the costs are too high for what little they do.
    well if that's the case then I'm going to have to agree with your assessment... sadness. 
    4* was fixed pretty quickly, so there's hope... then again we haven't had a positive character rebalance in a while... and the tier already has Banner... so, ummm, nevermind....   :p
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    jneidus said:
    I'm confused about this - "When there are at least 4 Swarm tiles on the board (max 12), all of Wasp's powers become Call the Swarm." (the underlined & italicized part is where my confusion lies)

    Let's say you fire Sting Operation twice and now there are 4 blue swarm tiles on the board, do the yellow and black powers convert to Call the Swarm too? Or only the color in which there are 4+ swarm tiles (in this case blue)? If ALL powers change as soon as there are 4 swarm tiles of ANY color, I don't see how you could ever get more than 6 out (fire Shrink Tactics twice 2x3=6). 
    Well apparently her powers create locked tiles? So her passives wouldn't count them until they become unlocked, I think. Normally, locked tiles aren't counted for anything. So you put a bunch of locked tiles on the board, then unlock at least 4 of them to switch to Call the Swarm, then switch back when there's fewer than 4 unlocked...

    Hm. I mean, at least all the powers switch to Call the Swarm, so you're not stuck missing the one cover that makes everything go (See: Vision, OML, Nico).
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Also I get that they chose Wasp due to pride month but I’m bummed. I have suggested a 5* Ant-Man and/or Giant-Man in every character suggested. Maybe we’ll get it for DVD release. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    evade420 said:
    broll said:
    This all sounds great. One question 600kthough. Why have Okoye in the limited vault, she’s still Latest. I would have put Pheonix in her place. 
    Because they actually want ppl to buy the tokens 
    I’d be more likely to buy it for any diluted 5* so swing and miss for me. 
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    scottee said:
    The key to her usefulness is actually going to be her AP steal. It's not as good as OBW, but 6 Blue to steal 4 random AP is still a net of +2 AP. (-6+4+4)

    Her blue steal into swarm board shake potentially net huge AP gains, but it'll probably depend who she's paired with.

    Overall, the kit doesn't sound great, but could be one of those ones that we don't see the efficiency of the synergy on paper and will have to see her in action.

    How are you arriving at this conclusion: 6 Blue to steal 4 random AP is still a net of +2 AP. (-6+4+4)?

    Are you assuming two countdown tiles, because I'm not getting that from this description:

    Sting Operation - 6 bluetilepng AP
    The Wasp uses her influence to take the enemy down from within and expose their plans. Steals 4 random colored AP from the enemy and create a 2-turn(s) Countdown tile that creates 2 Blue Locked Swarm tiles.
    (PASSIVE) When there are at least 4 Swarm tiles on the board (max 12), all of Wasp's powers become Call the Swarm.
  • Tensuun
    Tensuun Posts: 99 Match Maker
    Looks to me like Sting Operation will interact nicely with Can't Seem To Miss, plus pairing her with Barton means you can easily get a rainbow simply by adding a solid Green user, such as Doctor Octopus.

    Since Sting Operation creates Swarm Tiles via countdowns, you could theoretically make a bunch of countdowns before your powers change; that plus the locked-tile mechanic Jaedenkaal brings up makes it seem very possible to have far more than 6 Swarm Tiles present on the board at one time.

    I'm not sure how the "max 12" Swarm Tiles is enforced. If a tile being unlocked would create a 13th unlocked Swarm Tile, what happens? Is the "swarm" attribute just removed from the tile as it becomes unlocked?

    12 is a strange number to cap out at, except that it matches the AP cost of "Call The Swarm". It makes me wonder if a note was missed somewhere; perhaps "Call The Swarm" was meant to have its AP cost reduced for each Swarm Tile present. Or, perhaps that was tried, deemed too powerful, and removed from the ability later.

    Are Swarm Tiles neutral, like Web Tiles? Hope vs. Hope could get weird.

    Star-Lord and Thor could be good teammates, too, but I think you kind of have to have both.

    There really aren't that many 5-star team-healers, are there? But if you don't insist on an all-5-star team, sticking her with CarDusa will make things start getting real nutty, real fast.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.
  • jneidus
    jneidus Posts: 66 Match Maker
    Jaedenkaal said:
    jneidus said:
    I'm confused about this - "When there are at least 4 Swarm tiles on the board (max 12), all of Wasp's powers become Call the Swarm." (the underlined & italicized part is where my confusion lies)

    Let's say you fire Sting Operation twice and now there are 4 blue swarm tiles on the board, do the yellow and black powers convert to Call the Swarm too? Or only the color in which there are 4+ swarm tiles (in this case blue)? If ALL powers change as soon as there are 4 swarm tiles of ANY color, I don't see how you could ever get more than 6 out (fire Shrink Tactics twice 2x3=6). 
    Well apparently her powers create locked tiles? So her passives wouldn't count them until they become unlocked, I think. Normally, locked tiles aren't counted for anything. So you put a bunch of locked tiles on the board, then unlock at least 4 of them to switch to Call the Swarm, then switch back when there's fewer than 4 unlocked...

    Hm. I mean, at least all the powers switch to Call the Swarm, so you're not stuck missing the one cover that makes everything go (See: Vision, OML, Nico).
    Good point. I was reading it more like fortified, but locked =/= fortified, so you may be right there. 

    So you get a bunch out there, then have to unlock them to get Call the Swarm? That seems...tedious. And then you have to spend 12 ap for 6915 damage? That seems...underwhelming.

    Follow up question - if locked swarm tiles do not count towards the power conversion, do they still count towards the max of 12? In other words, can I have 50 locked swarm tiles? I assume the max is meant more for the match damage increase (max of 120%), or can you not have more than 12 swarm tiles (locked or unlocked) of any one color?
  • Tensuun
    Tensuun Posts: 99 Match Maker
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.
    Hm... If that's true, then Call The Swarm will activate earlier, but it'll be possible (if not really feasible) to double-cast since the Locked Swarm Tiles will be "destroyed" and become normal Swarm Tiles.
  • jneidus
    jneidus Posts: 66 Match Maker
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.
    QS's blue ability looks for locked TU tiles, though. A better comparison would be if there was a power that activated depending on the number of TU tiles are on the board, and then whether those locked TU tiles counted.

    If there was a locked, purple friendly strike/attack tile, would The Deadliest Woman... still trigger?
  • professorplum9
    professorplum9 Posts: 133 Tile Toppler
    The proof is invariably in the pudding. I remember Black Bolt not looking so hot on paper and we all know how that turned out. However, since they've started pairing new releases with older 5* in their release vaults I've taken to using who they put in there with them as a possible gauge of how good they are. The better the characters they put with them the worse they tend to be and vice versa. I'm not saying that's the best criteria to use, but in this case it also happens to match people's theoretical analysis of her power set. Okoye seems clearly positioned to be the next meta defining character and JJ has a lot going for her as well so that would initially not bode well for Wasp based on that admittedly somewhat arbitrary criteria.
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    You guys keep saying these characters are related to Pride and I don't get it.......how is Wasp related? Mystique? Deadpool? 

    I know I'm not a comics buff, but I've seen enough of some of these characters where I feel like I should be able to get the reference. 
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    scottee said:
    The key to her usefulness is actually going to be her AP steal. It's not as good as OBW, but 6 Blue to steal 4 random AP is still a net of +2 AP. (-6+4+4)

    Her blue steal into swarm board shake potentially net huge AP gains, but it'll probably depend who she's paired with.

    Overall, the kit doesn't sound great, but could be one of those ones that we don't see the efficiency of the synergy on paper and will have to see her in action.

    How are you arriving at this conclusion: 6 Blue to steal 4 random AP is still a net of +2 AP. (-6+4+4)?

    Are you assuming two countdown tiles, because I'm not getting that from this description:

    Sting Operation - 6 bluetilepng AP
    The Wasp uses her influence to take the enemy down from within and expose their plans. Steals 4 random colored AP from the enemy and create a 2-turn(s) Countdown tile that creates 2 Blue Locked Swarm tiles.
    (PASSIVE) When there are at least 4 Swarm tiles on the board (max 12), all of Wasp's powers become Call the Swarm.
    Stealing AP is -4 for your opponent and +4 for you. That's a swing of +8 AP.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2018
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Locked swarm tiles are still swarm tiles. The mechanic for determining swarm tiles does not take into account their locked effect. Similar to Quicksilver's locked TU tiles for his blue ability.
    Not true. There are countless examples of abilities that count tiles NOT counting those tiles if they are locked, unless it specifically counts locked versions of those tiles. Switch, for example, makes a new CD tile if her existing one is locked, even though she only makes them "if one does not exist".  Locking friendly Strike tiles of the appropriate color decrease the cost reduction on such powers as Tracking Prey and Psychic Knife. Locked special tiles don't trigger Medusa's heal/AP gain (even though fortified tiles do). The list goes on. Locked tiles do not count as their base type of tile, except for abilities that specifically look for locked tiles.

    I'd be willing to accept that Wasp's powers here look for locked AND unlocked swarm tiles, although it seems like the gameplay would be better if it did not count locked tiles. That way you could build up a bunch, and then unlock them to meet the power-swap threshold.
  • ZeiramMR
    ZeiramMR Posts: 1,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    You guys keep saying these characters are related to Pride and I don't get it.......how is Wasp related? Mystique? Deadpool? 

    I know I'm not a comics buff, but I've seen enough of some of these characters where I feel like I should be able to get the reference. 
    I don't know about this version of Wasp, but Mystique had a long relationship with Destiny, and I've been told that Deadpool is bisexual.
  • Tensuun
    Tensuun Posts: 99 Match Maker
    BoyWonder1914 said:
    You guys keep saying these characters are related to Pride and I don't get it.......how is Wasp related? Mystique? Deadpool? 

    I know I'm not a comics buff, but I've seen enough of some of these characters where I feel like I should be able to get the reference. 
    I didn't know about Wasp; I actually still don't, 'cause I looked around a bit to see if I could find anything about that but have come up empty.

    Mystique is at least a woman-who-likes-women; her partnership with Destiny is probably the most genuine personal connection she has. She's also had a bunch of relationships with men, of course, but it's never been clear to me how much of that was "real" and how much was just manipulating the schmuck to serve her own purposes.

    Deadpool is definitely bisexual, though at the moment I have difficulty finding examples of this that aren't just sexually harassing Spider-Man.

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