Update to Versus Reward Structure (6/20/18)

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Comments

  • Bzhai
    Bzhai Posts: 513 Critical Contributor
    Thank you!

    75 wins is one carrot I will gladly chase because it's more achievable for my roster. Plus I'm always grinding pvp during my free time to farm iso anyway. 
  • zodiac339
    zodiac339 Posts: 1,948 Chairperson of the Boards
    Good: CP back in Progression rather than limited to placement.
    Bad: Number of wins remains a bit crazy. More so really with nearly twice the number of wins to get just 2 more rewards.
    I really do want to see just some simple math done to determine where rewards are placed. If we look at 900 as the 4*, and 1200 as the CP, then 900 is 3/4 of the total and 1200 is 4/4 of the total. There’s an equation to get a reasonable number out of this. If 3/4 = 900/1200, then 3/4 = 40/X.
    3/4 = 40/X
    3X = 40*4
    3X = 160
    3X/3 = 160/3
    X = 53.333...
    Round up to 55 wins for CP. Reasonable, achievable, less time slogging through enemies without getting anything else out of progression. 45 wins for the far, far less useful RISO.
    I hate having negative thoughts, but it’s hard not to. For those players with weaker rosters who could be helped by looking for wins, my memory of having a weaker roster was that I was fairly consistently matched against rosters I couldn’t beat. Expecting players to go through another 35 matches like that is just a bit harsh.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Implementing the system we pointed out to be optimal right after the first test?
    Hell just froze over.
  • Kahmon
    Kahmon Posts: 625 Critical Contributor
    @brigby one thing is not clear. If only playing for progression rewards, are points still lost from losses or are progression and placement points separate? 
  • Shintok17
    Shintok17 Posts: 620 Critical Contributor
    Amazing. Thank you. I always wanted a hybrid system. YAY!!!
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kahmon said:
    @brigby one thing is not clear. If only playing for progression rewards, are points still lost from losses or are progression and placement points separate? 
    They’re the same points, and they will drop if you lose. The difference is, you can now get the progression rewards if you get enough wins, regardless of how many points you have. Whichever you get first (points or wins) will get you that reward. You can only get each reward once, of course
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Wumpushunter said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Wumpushunter said:
    Win base without season is so half-hearted,  just keep it. It's  a fools compromise. Pvp with out 90% of the rewards. 
    Someone who is able to get 4000 per season still will.  The change just means they could put in extra effort and get extra rewards in turn.

    So they are going to get more rewards, not less. And actually, because they will be playing more matches, they may actually get more points per season.  What 90 percent are you talking about?
    Soul stone season event progression rewards, elite token, 1000 iso, 50 hero tokens, 75 iso, 3 star cover, and more and thats only at CL7.  Really the only change for win based will be 2 or 3 new progression awards per PVP event for those that couldn't get over the hump.
    ?????????????

    if you were getting around 300 per pvp and 1k in Sim, you got the 4k reward.  totally doable with effort.  Now, if they put in more effort, they get a **guaranteed**:  50 hp, 750 iso, 10 cp, event token, 65 riso, 50 hp, 3* cover, 2000 iso, event token and a 4* cove at CL7.  FOR EVERY EVENT.  multiply that by 10.

    and you are upset that this doesn't include 4 rewards past 4k?  which at CL9 are: 2250 iso, 580 riso, 100hp, and 15 cp.  Seriously?  while totally ignoring the fact that by pushing for these higher rewards, it is almost entirely likely that they will end up with a higher season score, and get one or more of those rewards?  am i missing something here?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2018
    Basically, more rewards for the least amount of effort possible or lesser effort to get more rewards. That's what is missing.

    For those pitching to reduce 75 wins to even fewer wins, chances are you will be hit with MMR by the 15th win. Based on my experience, it took me less than 15 wins to hit 725 points. By then I would be seeing team that are much stronger than mine.
  • killerkoala
    killerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    having both wins or points getting progression is a good compromise

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,990 Chairperson of the Boards
    When original wins-based was rolled out I was in a sweet spot where I could benefit from either system. 

    Pros of points based:

    - I could/can get to 900 in one push (two every once in awhile) near the end of an event (between 3-8 hours). Toss up a shield and be done. Very high ROI for minimal work. 

    Pros of wins based:

    - Got to play with a much wider variety of teams. Played with 3* characters a lot more and could play fun teams and not just the fastest most defensive.

    - Could play when I wanted, a match here or there which was nice. 

    - Made tons more iso

    - And now I can get more rewards if I’m crazy enough to grind that much!
  • jtmagee
    jtmagee Posts: 158 Tile Toppler
    Nice addition. 
  • veny
    veny Posts: 834 Critical Contributor
    Tensuun said:
    Pleasantly surprised by all the positive reactions in this thread. Here I was thinking there would inevitably be complaints about yet another change that doesn't take anything away from anyone.
    veny said:

    1st - NO WAY 75 wins is equal to 1200 points. NO WAY! Same for the difference between 900 and 1000 points and 40 and 50 wins. 1 win is the equivalent of 10 points? Really?
    2nd - I may sound negative, but the only thing this system changes is the frustration of endless grinding caused by situation when player is losing points faster than gaining them from games won.
    Main problem (unballanced teams, very difficult teams, cruel requirements with poor rewards) remain and number of wins is way too big, compared with points gained per average match.
    3rd - Lets be honest and constructive - PvE is easier with roster growing. PvP? Exactly the opposite. Grinding is way too cruel and rewards are pathetic compared to PvE... at least for players like me who spend 2 hours in game every day.

    My suggestion is very simple (it also doesnt entirely fix PvP, but gives your change much better impact people may appreciate) :
    1) Instead of wins, call it Kills
    2) Kills required will be 2 times amount of wins. F.e. instead of 75 wins or 1200 points, you need 150 kills or 1200 points. What kills? Kills of opponents characters. With up to 3 killed opponents per match "win" amount is reduced by 33%. The pain of loss will also partially dissapear since killed enemies also count, not only games won

    OR, Kills required will be 3 times amount of wins (225 kills instead of 75 wins) and characters killed while defending will also count.

    Think about that - dont want to sound intimidating or so, but this your change doesnt change much for most players and i this simply wont make me come back to PvP.
    Before posting this, i tried one match - took me 3 minutes against two maxed 2*s (I have OML and Phoenix so...). Without America Chaves being required character, it would take longer and result wouldnt be that positive. I managed to win, but my team lost half hitpoints. I am sure 75 wins in 2 days is not doable for me. And i dont even want to double the amount of time spent.
    Oh and i was figting some weakling anyway, since i had only 200 points - since 700 points, true OP combos come in, like 5* Gambit etc.
    Oh, there it is.

    1. Most of the time, I'll probably get to 900 points before I've accumulated 40 wins. But, sometimes I rack up 35 or so wins (I lose count as generally I grind PVP while performing some other activity), climb to 870 points, and then run out of health packs, come back an hour later, and see a screen telling me I've just lost 185 points to attackers. That feels bad, especially because I start to get the feeling that if I try to win my points back, I'll just keep getting attacked more often the closer I get to 900. If I know I can get that next prize even if other people keep attacking me, as long as I can win another handful of matches eventually, I'll keep playing. Maybe I'll hit 900 points before I get the win total anyway. The point is partly psychological here.

    2. Yes, that is exactly the problem that this addresses. It isn't perfect, but if I scrape my knee and somebody offers me a band-aid, I'm not going to complain that they didn't sew me up.

    3. I'm not sure what your point is, really. PVE is more rewarding for less effort put in, yes. PVP is more grindy. Another difference is that if you play enough PVE, you run out of things to do, while in PVP you can always grind more. (Well, not always -- if you run out of health packs and viable character teams, you're done, but that's a much softer and faster-recharging limit than the PVE "you have already earned all possible points for this node" thing.)

    Nothing in this game will ever be called "Kills", partly because many characters like Spider-Man* canonically never do this (they "down" people instead), and partly because... well, it's supposed to be a family-friendly game. Think of the children!

    (*Actually, it's heavily implied the reason Otto Octavius' original body died was because Spider-Man gave him a zillion concussions over the years, so it sort of depends on whether you define "lethal force" in terms of immediate effect, or cumulative, but whatever.)
    I just explained why this petty change doesnt make PvP more attractive for me, thats all.
    However it is nice the only flaw you see on my improvement is its name :D
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Basically, more rewards for the least amount of effort possible or lesser effort to get more rewards. That's what is missing.

    For those pitching to reduce 75 wins to even fewer wins, chances are you will be hit with MMR by the 15th win. Based on my experience, it took me less than 15 wins to hit 725 points. By then I would be seeing team that are much stronger than mine.
    Then bake a dropcake. Or find someone to have a retal war with. There's plenty of ways to artificially increase number of wins without fighting any matches that even take a healthpack.
  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Would I be right in thinking we dont lose points when we are hit now then? 
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nick441234 said:
    Would I be right in thinking we dont lose points when we are hit now then? 
    You would not be.
  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Aww, thats a shame then. Would have been nice to have been able to play more casually over the 2 and a half days. I shall remain on my joining in the last 3 hours schedule then. 

    Good change nonetheless. 
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    Spudgutter said:
    Wumpushunter said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Wumpushunter said:
    Win base without season is so half-hearted,  just keep it. It's  a fools compromise. Pvp with out 90% of the rewards. 
    Someone who is able to get 4000 per season still will.  The change just means they could put in extra effort and get extra rewards in turn.

    So they are going to get more rewards, not less. And actually, because they will be playing more matches, they may actually get more points per season.  What 90 percent are you talking about?
    Soul stone season event progression rewards, elite token, 1000 iso, 50 hero tokens, 75 iso, 3 star cover, and more and thats only at CL7.  Really the only change for win based will be 2 or 3 new progression awards per PVP event for those that couldn't get over the hump.
    ?????????????

    if you were getting around 300 per pvp and 1k in Sim, you got the 4k reward.  totally doable with effort.  Now, if they put in more effort, they get a **guaranteed**:  50 hp, 750 iso, 10 cp, event token, 65 riso, 50 hp, 3* cover, 2000 iso, event token and a 4* cove at CL7.  FOR EVERY EVENT.  multiply that by 10.

    and you are upset that this doesn't include 4 rewards past 4k?  which at CL9 are: 2250 iso, 580 riso, 100hp, and 15 cp.  Seriously?  while totally ignoring the fact that by pushing for these higher rewards, it is almost entirely likely that they will end up with a higher season score, and get one or more of those rewards?  am i missing something here?
    The entire point of win based pvp is that the people win based was there to help wasnt getting 4k a season. They were getting slaughtered and their points reduced. So by stating hey you got points, you get rewards. No. The points are gone to the wind. -18 -6 -22 - 24 . The entire point of win based is to prevent trying to keep 4k from vanishing. And yet its still happening on the season this is a half compromise.  No one gets less on progression if more people hit certain marks. It makes no sense to exclude season progression under wins.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The devs has clearly explained their reasoning in the first post:

     We won’t be using it for the season’s progression rewards though - we want those to reward consistent competition over the course of the season, and that doesn’t work if you can grind out a zillion wins to get all the rewards in just one event.

    This is an excellent compromise and you will be getting more 3* and 4* covers if you are not getting it in the current system. 

  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker

    Wumpushunter said:
    The entire point of win based pvp is that the people win based was there to help wasnt getting 4k a season. They were getting slaughtered and their points reduced. So by stating hey you got points, you get rewards. No. The points are gone to the wind. -18 -6 -22 - 24 . The entire point of win based is to prevent trying to keep 4k from vanishing. And yet its still happening on the season this is a half compromise.  No one gets less on progression if more people hit certain marks. It makes no sense to exclude season progression under wins.
    ??

    While I'm sure there are people struggling with 4k, the majority of people I've come across does not want win-based to reach 4k in season. For the casual pvp crowd that doesn't climb higher than 400-575pts 4k a season is still comfortably attainable. Heck, even if you get pushed down to 300 every pvp event, you can still make up the difference in Sim. Reaching 4k in seasons is really not overly difficult as long as you're in early 3* land. Heck, might even be doable in 2-3* transition; I can't remember when exactly I started going for 400 per pvp event (for the HP), but it was around that time.

    No, most people I've seen, who want wins-based because they can't reach a goal, want it to reach the specific 3/4* covers at 800/900 pts. Mostly the 4* covers at 900, though I've also seen ambitious lower rosters frustrated at not being able to get any 3* covers from it.

    4k in season is doable with points, even for the more casual crowd and developing rosters. The main cover rewards are not.

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