Is there a definitive etiquette for PvP?

TetsujinOni

tiomono said:

So then it's easier to understand the experience of a non line user. In most other forms of single player competition if a group of players cooperate to ensure they get the best rewards or to stop others from getting rewards it is frowned upon. So why is it ok here? Is it because mmr stinks? Is there another reason?

I would love for the devs to go back to the drawing board and try to change versus in a way that could improve upon our obviously broken and frustrating current system.

Alliance rewards make Versus not a single player competition, so your first premise about the nature of Versus is flawed. Starting from a flawed base will lead to flawed conclusions.

tiomono

TetsujinOni said:

tiomono said:

So then it's easier to understand the experience of a non line user. In most other forms of single player competition if a group of players cooperate to ensure they get the best rewards or to stop others from getting rewards it is frowned upon. So why is it ok here? Is it because mmr stinks? Is there another reason?

I would love for the devs to go back to the drawing board and try to change versus in a way that could improve upon our obviously broken and frustrating current system.

"Alliance rewards make Versus not a single player competition, so your first premise about the nature of Versus is flawed. Starting from a flawed base will lead to flawed conclusions. "


Quoting acting up.

It is player versus player, you can hit your own alliance. My premise of versus is not flawed. Versus is flawed.

Phumade

tiomono said:

Where did anyone even say this is 5* line players targeting 4* players?

I will ask again I suppose. Will a non line dual 5* player that routinely double or triples line players without realizing it or maybe not even aware of the line etiquette getting targeted?

LOL

A dual 5* champion roster who isn't aware of LINE and basic pvp etiquette either pro or against doesn't exist.


The minimum to achieve that roster is significant spending (which means line buyclub) or a very mature roster >500 days min.

They know the etiquette and they just dont care.

Phumade

PenniesForEveryone said:

2.)  MMR is broken and does a really "good" job of preventing 5* players from really even being able to beat up on a 4* roster who isn't following the established "etiquette".  For example - if a 5* roster wants to target a 4* player to really give them a hard time they have to either wait until the 4* roster has a high enough score to break MMR (typically over 900) or break MMR themselves (typically closer to 1200) so that they can queue the 4*, then dump enough points (at least 300) to get low enough so that the hit on the 4* lands for more than a -7, and then climb back up to break MMR and do it again.  Very few people have the time/patience/energy for this.

This point is incredibly accurate and on point.  It actually takes alot of work for a 5* roster to really "enforce" on a 4* roster.  Unless both players are SIMULTANEOUSLY climbing together,  they will move out of MMR within 3 hits (which equates to 10 matches/skips)

What most 4* rosters experience as "sniping/enforcing" is really just them moving beyond the herd protection of the mass of 4* rosters.  When your the fastest cow in the herd, the wolves just wait for you to walk up to them.

Most people think about the game in terms of scores presented to them.  But real picture is to envision a 3-d cloud of players.  The more that similar sized rosters cluster and move together, the harder it becomes to target any one single roster.

Daiches

tiomono said:

TetsujinOni said:

tiomono said:

So then it's easier to understand the experience of a non line user. In most other forms of single player competition if a group of players cooperate to ensure they get the best rewards or to stop others from getting rewards it is frowned upon. So why is it ok here? Is it because mmr stinks? Is there another reason?

I would love for the devs to go back to the drawing board and try to change versus in a way that could improve upon our obviously broken and frustrating current system.

"Alliance rewards make Versus not a single player competition, so your first premise about the nature of Versus is flawed. Starting from a flawed base will lead to flawed conclusions. "


Quoting acting up.

It is player versus player, you can hit your own alliance. My premise of versus is not flawed. Versus is flawed.

It's Versus. It isn't called PVP. Quit trying to define a format on a player given name for that tab and event style.
Much like what we all PVE is actually named Story, and is not even true PVE, since it's actually PVP for placement.

In Versus points are built by players shielding and allowing points to be added to the shard by getting hit while shielded. The only way to make progression available to players is by doing just that, and the quickest way is to coordinate it. I could point you to S2 or S5 to see just how hard it is to ensure progression for players when that is mostly absent (but even those slices have BCs and checkrooms).

tiomono

Phumade said:

tiomono said:

Where did anyone even say this is 5* line players targeting 4* players?

I will ask again I suppose. Will a non line dual 5* player that routinely double or triples line players without realizing it or maybe not even aware of the line etiquette getting targeted?

LOL

A dual 5* champion roster who isn't aware of LINE and basic pvp etiquette either pro or against doesn't exist.


The minimum to achieve that roster is significant spending (which means line buyclub) or a very mature roster >500 days min.

They know the etiquette and they just dont care.

So you are trying to say that there are no players with champed 5*s that would not know about line. That's a big stretch.

Regardless versus as it currently exists is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed.

beyonderbub

tiomono 

So you are trying to say that there are no players with champed 5*s that would not know about line. 

I would say that 5* rosters would know about out of game communication like Line, Discord, Reddit, these forums or belong to an alliance with members that know these same methods of collaboration for in game progress. I don’t think it is much of a stretch to say that by the time you get champed 5*s (a year?) you will learn that folks collaborate and cooperate using out of game means, including Line. 

tiomono

Daiches said:

tiomono said:

TetsujinOni said:

tiomono said:

So then it's easier to understand the experience of a non line user. In most other forms of single player competition if a group of players cooperate to ensure they get the best rewards or to stop others from getting rewards it is frowned upon. So why is it ok here? Is it because mmr stinks? Is there another reason?

I would love for the devs to go back to the drawing board and try to change versus in a way that could improve upon our obviously broken and frustrating current system.

"Alliance rewards make Versus not a single player competition, so your first premise about the nature of Versus is flawed. Starting from a flawed base will lead to flawed conclusions. "


Quoting acting up.

It is player versus player, you can hit your own alliance. My premise of versus is not flawed. Versus is flawed.

It's Versus. It isn't called PVP. Quit trying to define a format on a player given name for that tab and event style.
Much like what we all PVE is actually named Story, and is not even true PVE, since it's actually PVP for placement.

In Versus points are built by players shielding and allowing points to be added to the shard by getting hit while shielded. The only way to make progression available to players is by doing just that, and the quickest way is to coordinate it. I could point you to S2 or S5 to see just how hard it is to ensure progression for players when that is mostly absent (but even those slices have BCs and checkrooms).

Ok so it's called versus. Take out line ettiqutte and look at what the game presents you with. Who are you being matched against? Everyone with a similar roster to yourself, even your own alliance. That would be why we frequently call it pvp.

Daiches

tiomono said:

Daiches said:

tiomono said:

TetsujinOni said:

tiomono said:

So then it's easier to understand the experience of a non line user. In most other forms of single player competition if a group of players cooperate to ensure they get the best rewards or to stop others from getting rewards it is frowned upon. So why is it ok here? Is it because mmr stinks? Is there another reason?

I would love for the devs to go back to the drawing board and try to change versus in a way that could improve upon our obviously broken and frustrating current system.

"Alliance rewards make Versus not a single player competition, so your first premise about the nature of Versus is flawed. Starting from a flawed base will lead to flawed conclusions. "


Quoting acting up.

It is player versus player, you can hit your own alliance. My premise of versus is not flawed. Versus is flawed.

It's Versus. It isn't called PVP. Quit trying to define a format on a player given name for that tab and event style.
Much like what we all PVE is actually named Story, and is not even true PVE, since it's actually PVP for placement.

In Versus points are built by players shielding and allowing points to be added to the shard by getting hit while shielded. The only way to make progression available to players is by doing just that, and the quickest way is to coordinate it. I could point you to S2 or S5 to see just how hard it is to ensure progression for players when that is mostly absent (but even those slices have BCs and checkrooms).

Ok so it's called versus. Take out line ettiqutte and look at what the game presents you with. Who are you being matched against? Everyone with a similar roster to yourself, even your own alliance. That would be why we frequently call it pvp.

Have you considered other games that feature a pvp component with alliance/team rewards? Shooters, MOBAs? You can definitely just hit stuff and do okay, or you can work together and find deeper  understanding of the inner workings of points building/MMR and progress quicker.
Have you even tried it? For a lot of us this cooperation/antagonism is what makes the game fun. And you would understand no one is taking anything from you, but actually giving you easier access to progression. All slices have big rooms that welcome any and all that want to play friendly with the goal of making progression as easy and relaxing as it can be. Sure, it's mostly 5star and high 4star rosters there now, but that's because a) the meta move does up after 4 years and b) killing cupcakes by D3 denying 2-3-4star rosters the same opportunities we once had.

Sm0keyJ0e

tiomono said:

Regardless versus as it currently exists is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed.

This is your opinion, and I completely disagree. You look at most leaderboards at the end of events in any slice, and you will see either the largest rosters on top or those who took the most time and shields to get there. What else do you want?

Not every reward is meant for every player. This sounds like Shield Training all over again where many players think they deserve to get every single reward the game offers...

Phumade

tiomono said:

Phumade said:

tiomono said:

Where did anyone even say this is 5* line players targeting 4* players?

I will ask again I suppose. Will a non line dual 5* player that routinely double or triples line players without realizing it or maybe not even aware of the line etiquette getting targeted?

LOL

A dual 5* champion roster who isn't aware of LINE and basic pvp etiquette either pro or against doesn't exist.


The minimum to achieve that roster is significant spending (which means line buyclub) or a very mature roster >500 days min.

They know the etiquette and they just dont care.

So you are trying to say that there are no players with champed 5*s that would not know about line. That's a big stretch.

Regardless versus as it currently exists is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed.

I actually feel incredibly confident about that statement.

tiomono

Sm0keyJ0e said:

tiomono said:

Regardless versus as it currently exists is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed.

This is your opinion, and I completely disagree. You look at most leaderboards at the end of events in any slice, and you will see either the largest rosters on top or those who took the most time and shields to get there. What else do you want?

Not every reward is meant for every player. This sounds like Shield Training all over again where many players think they deserve to get every single reward the game offers...

And yet people complain about lack of targets all the time. The way versus operates right now is very off putting for new players and many vets as well.

No everyone should not get every reward. I feel we need more interesting rewards at the top so high end players push higher making it easier for 3 star players to get a 3 star cover and 4 star players an easier time getting the 4 star cover.

If you are not in the know right now there is no indication as to why you are now struggling more to hit the same rewards you were before you leveled up to the next tier. Mmr is a mess nobody regularly tries to deny that that I have seen. Your float point gets much lower everytime you hit a new star tier, which makes you feel like the game punishes you for leveling up.

And yes this is largely my opinion. The same as you saying it's fine as is, is your opinion.

Sm0keyJ0e

tiomono said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

tiomono said:

Regardless versus as it currently exists is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed.

This is your opinion, and I completely disagree. You look at most leaderboards at the end of events in any slice, and you will see either the largest rosters on top or those who took the most time and shields to get there. What else do you want?

Not every reward is meant for every player. This sounds like Shield Training all over again where many players think they deserve to get every single reward the game offers...

And yet people complain about lack of targets all the time. The way versus operates right now is very off putting for new players and many vets as well.

No everyone should not get every reward. I feel we need more interesting rewards at the top so high end players push higher making it easier for 3 star players to get a 3 star cover and 4 star players an easier time getting the 4 star cover.

If you are not in the know right now there is no indication as to why you are now struggling more to hit the same rewards you were before you leveled up to the next tier. Mmr is a mess nobody regularly tries to deny that that I have seen. Your float point gets much lower everytime you hit a new star tier, which makes you feel like the game punishes you for leveling up.

And yes this is largely my opinion. The same as you saying it's fine as is, is your opinion.

I don't think it's possible to make a perfect system for everyone. The Versus system that's in place now has been tested and tweaked over the years and they continue to do so. You yourself said in a different thread they should not be making whole-sale changes to major feature of the game, so Versus will have to continue to evolve and they should be taking everyone's feedback, from all tiers, into consideration (which I believe they do).

My point was simply that I don't agree when you say it is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed. It has been MUCH more broken in the past and even slight changes to the system now to help one small segment could break it more for everyone.

beyonderbub

Just putting this out there for general consumption. I use Line and participate in several battlechat/shield check rooms. Just now as I’m climbing and grilling before I shield, I notice a lack of viable targets. I usually call out who hit me to let people know who is out there as a viable target for the room. I worked hard getting those points, I’d like to keep it in the family. There always will be an us versus them in PVP. Being in the same alliance and chat room sets the boundaries for me. I may have been pummeling you and vice versa in Kamala Khan last event, but if we are sharing the same chat room now in CoverSquirrel, you are my new best friend. PVP makes the strangest bedfellows. 

tiomono

Sm0keyJ0e said:

tiomono said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

tiomono said:

Regardless versus as it currently exists is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed.

This is your opinion, and I completely disagree. You look at most leaderboards at the end of events in any slice, and you will see either the largest rosters on top or those who took the most time and shields to get there. What else do you want?

Not every reward is meant for every player. This sounds like Shield Training all over again where many players think they deserve to get every single reward the game offers...

And yet people complain about lack of targets all the time. The way versus operates right now is very off putting for new players and many vets as well.

No everyone should not get every reward. I feel we need more interesting rewards at the top so high end players push higher making it easier for 3 star players to get a 3 star cover and 4 star players an easier time getting the 4 star cover.

If you are not in the know right now there is no indication as to why you are now struggling more to hit the same rewards you were before you leveled up to the next tier. Mmr is a mess nobody regularly tries to deny that that I have seen. Your float point gets much lower everytime you hit a new star tier, which makes you feel like the game punishes you for leveling up.

And yes this is largely my opinion. The same as you saying it's fine as is, is your opinion.

I don't think it's possible to make a perfect system for everyone. The Versus system that's in place now has been tested and tweaked over the years and they continue to do so. You yourself said in a different thread they should not be making whole-sale changes to major feature of the game, so Versus will have to continue to evolve and they should be taking everyone's feedback, from all tiers, into consideration (which I believe they do).

My point was simply that I don't agree when you say it is a strangely broken mess in several ways and needs addressed. It has been MUCH more broken in the past and even slight changes to the system now to help one small segment could break it more for everyone.

I don't recall saying they shouldn't make wholesale changes to major features. But I forget lots of stuff.

You say you disagree that it's strangley broken and doesn't need addressed. Then say it's broken and they continue to tweak it but if they do it will become more broken. I'm confused and this is getting off topic. Still an interesting discussion though.

Sm0keyJ0e

I never said it was broken. I said the opposite. I am sorry you are confused.

FokaiHI

That dude is so getting hit

Dragon_Nexus

Well, spent the last part of Coversquirrel being hit by the same few people repeatedly.

Either I'm getting targetted like the PM threatened, or this jolly co-operation is more mercenary than it seems.

Bowgentle

Dragon_Nexus said:

Well, spent the last part of Coversquirrel being hit by the same few people repeatedly.

Either I'm getting targetted like the PM threatened, or this jolly co-operation is more mercenary than it seems.

I'm guessing you making a thread has a lot to do with that.
It's rare that a player with 5* MMR makes these kinds of threads so the LINE community probably enjoys the opportunity to demonstrate the difference between being a random and a known player.

Dragon_Nexus

It's all a bit **** really, isn't it?