MCU: Avengers | Infinity War ***SPOILERS***

tph_james

Is it possible black widow, capt and falcon stand a chance against Thanos sharpest henchmen?
Vision and SW were ridiculously weak. 

DAZ0273

Eddiemon said:

aesthetocyst said:

The only criticism I had was the flagrant abuse of the Sophie's Choice* trope. 

I lost count of how many times characters were forked into a choice of resisting the progress of Thanos' plan and harm to someone they cared about.

• Thanos threatened Loki with harm to Thor.
• Witch refused to risk harming Vision by destroying his stone.
• Thanos threatened Gamora with harm to Nebula.
• Thanos used Gamora against Starlord.
• Gamora forked Starlord into promising to kill her.
• Strange 'bought' Stark's life by giving Thanos a stone.

* Probably not the right term for the trope of a villain using someone's personal sentiments against them, demanding that that someone facilitate a much greater harm in order to 'prevent' that villain from inflicting a personal harm against them, e.g., "Hand over the X or your wife gets it!"

I think that’s kind of the point with Thanos as a ‘villain’. He didn’t care about hurting people, or beating people. He just did exactly what he needed and the minimum he needed to achieve his objectives. Like you expect a bad guy to get what he wants and then say ‘kill them anyway’. And yet he honoured every commitment.

The funny thing though is you left out the culmination of the theme, in that the soul stone put Thanos in exactly the same bind and he chose opposite.

I wonder if, with the Mind stone having been Vision and the soul stone’s catch 22, if the stones are going to turn on Thanos.

Non sequiter: I was rewatching Avengers at the gym, and I realised that when Thanos sent Loki to fetch the Tessaract for its stone, Loki was carrying the mind stone in his sceptre the whole time. Why didn’t Thanos help himself way back then?

Eddiemon said:

aesthetocyst said:

The only criticism I had was the flagrant abuse of the Sophie's Choice* trope. 

I lost count of how many times characters were forked into a choice of resisting the progress of Thanos' plan and harm to someone they cared about.

• Thanos threatened Loki with harm to Thor.
• Witch refused to risk harming Vision by destroying his stone.
• Thanos threatened Gamora with harm to Nebula.
• Thanos used Gamora against Starlord.
• Gamora forked Starlord into promising to kill her.
• Strange 'bought' Stark's life by giving Thanos a stone.

* Probably not the right term for the trope of a villain using someone's personal sentiments against them, demanding that that someone facilitate a much greater harm in order to 'prevent' that villain from inflicting a personal harm against them, e.g., "Hand over the X or your wife gets it!"

I think that’s kind of the point with Thanos as a ‘villain’. He didn’t care about hurting people, or beating people. He just did exactly what he needed and the minimum he needed to achieve his objectives. Like you expect a bad guy to get what he wants and then say ‘kill them anyway’. And yet he honoured every commitment.

The funny thing though is you left out the culmination of the theme, in that the soul stone put Thanos in exactly the same bind and he chose opposite.

I wonder if, with the Mind stone having been Vision and the soul stone’s catch 22, if the stones are going to turn on Thanos.

Non sequiter: I was rewatching Avengers at the gym, and I realised that when Thanos sent Loki to fetch the Tessaract for its stone, Loki was carrying the mind stone in his sceptre the whole time. Why didn’t Thanos help himself way back then?

I think Thanos already had possession of the mind stone and allowed Loki to "borrow" it in order to obtain more Infinity Stones.

Polares

After watching it last week I can say now that I love it. It was nowhere perfect, I think 20 minutes more to get better transitions (like, after two years they just gave one look for Banner and Natasha, and similar to Bucky and Steve) would have helped a bit with the pacing, but Thanos, OMG Thanos!, this is the second best Thanos after Starlin's Thanos. Much much better than most Marvel writters (like seriously, why everybody gets him wrong ?!?!?! Current series is a good example of how not to write Thanos!). I can't wait to watch it again. It will probably be my new Marvel favourite (but I am a BIG Thanos fan). 

I think people is being to harsh with StarLord. The plan had 0 chances, I think directors just made it look like they could win, but at that time Thanos already had 4 gems, reality and soul included. He could have absorbed the souls of all of them in a second. Teleported each one of them into a sun in a blink of an eye. And Strange could do nothing about it, neither could the Time gem. The soul stone is probably the strongest of them all, and he already had it. Also, after just discovering that the person that you love the most is dead, I don't know how many people would be able to not be blinded by rage.

Notes for debate:
- Yeah Strange knows Tony needs to survive for them to win. He knows Thanos was going to win no matter what.
- I don't know how are they going to make it now. Thanos has all gems. He is all powerful. BUT I think the gauntlet is broken, and I think in the MCU you need the gauntlet to control the gems, so I think this is going to play an important rol in the movie.
- I don't think Gamora is dead. I think she is inside the Soul Gem, this is why Thanos and her talk in the end. They talk inside the Soul Gem.

scottee

Doc L said:

- And seriously, have they not made Thanos now the meta/OP? I don't quite see how they can weave in him not using the gauntlet to fight the Avengers in the last film, when he can kill them with a wave of a hand? I get the gist of what will happen to reverse the story, but I can't see how, without Mephisto or Lady Death, something similar could happen. Will they show the Watchers (as seen in GotG Vol 2)? Or Eternity? I don't know, I'm just worried they're building to something that will be semi-ridiculous. Maybe Gamora's soul will appear to him, as a substitute for Mephisto? I had hoped the Defenders TV series would introduce him, as a demon at the head of the Hand. 

I think Gamora's going to be the "love" that plays the role of Lady Death in the next movie. Either triggered my come conversation with the soul stone and/or an encounter with Nebula reminding him of her.

Polares

aesthetocyst said:

Eddiemon said:

The fallen characters didn’t die per se. They ceased to exist, which is a form of death without the actual dying bit. Which means the gauntlet should be able to make them exist again without having to rewind time past a death moment.

Yep, already foreshadowed that then Drax and Mantis were surreally disassembled .... and reassembled themselves as soon as Thanos left the scene.

That was ... weird. The effects of the gems are permanent. At that point they should have been dead. Thanos would have had to think about reassembling them or bringing them back to normal to fix them, not simply by going somewhere else things go back to how they were. He already had the power gem, so things are permanent by then.

This is the same thing as with Thor's hammer 'beating' the six gems together and hitting Thanos. The six gems together are ALL powerful, there is no way in hell, that hammer could hit Thanos.

But those are small things, I still love the movie :P

CenturyChild

I had a lot of feelings and I can say that I was legitimately effected by every death at the end of the movie. I know that they're bound to come back (soul stone, captain marvel, strange knows what he's doing) but there's the uncertainty of will all of them come back? Who's going to die later on once they all do come back?

I'm just excited to see the part that Carol plays in fixing this whole mess, because I don't have much else to be excited about after IW. 

Chrono_Tata

aesthetocyst said:

It is also unclear at what point Thanos had the gauntlet made. There was a gauntlet in Odin's vault, but apparently it was an older model, destroyed along with Asgard, and Hela declared it a fake (retcon ), as Thanos had the dwarves make him one. Was that after Thanos declared he would do it himself, or a long time ago?

I think completing the gauntlet was always Thanos' long plan, had the gauntlet made long ago. He wanted to use lackeys to collect the stones, not risk himself until he was omnipotent, but got tired of pawn fails, and decided toss caution aside and reveal himself early, before he had absolute power. 

Eitri said that Asgard was supposed to protect them and Thor basically replied that they couldn't cause Asgard has been destroyed, so I imagine that Thanos arriving at forge and forcing them to create the Gauntlet must have taken place during or after Hela's attack on Asgard.

herm1978

Eddiemon said:

aesthetocyst said:

The only criticism I had was the flagrant abuse of the Sophie's Choice* trope. 

I lost count of how many times characters were forked into a choice of resisting the progress of Thanos' plan and harm to someone they cared about.

• Thanos threatened Loki with harm to Thor.
• Witch refused to risk harming Vision by destroying his stone.
• Thanos threatened Gamora with harm to Nebula.
• Thanos used Gamora against Starlord.
• Gamora forked Starlord into promising to kill her.
• Strange 'bought' Stark's life by giving Thanos a stone.

* Probably not the right term for the trope of a villain using someone's personal sentiments against them, demanding that that someone facilitate a much greater harm in order to 'prevent' that villain from inflicting a personal harm against them, e.g., "Hand over the X or your wife gets it!"

I think that’s kind of the point with Thanos as a ‘villain’. He didn’t care about hurting people, or beating people. He just did exactly what he needed and the minimum he needed to achieve his objectives. Like you expect a bad guy to get what he wants and then say ‘kill them anyway’. And yet he honoured every commitment.

The funny thing though is you left out the culmination of the theme, in that the soul stone put Thanos in exactly the same bind and he chose opposite.

I wonder if, with the Mind stone having been Vision and the soul stone’s catch 22, if the stones are going to turn on Thanos.

Non sequiter: I was rewatching Avengers at the gym, and I realised that when Thanos sent Loki to fetch the Tessaract for its stone, Loki was carrying the mind stone in his sceptre the whole time. Why didn’t Thanos help himself way back then?

Except for all the dwarves he killed?

Pongie

Tony specifically said Thanos has been in his head for 6 years. Meaning the gap between the first Avengers film and Infinity War is 6 years. 

n25philly

My prediction:

Thanos never actually truly won.  Anyone noticed that during the fight with Thanos on Titan at one point we get the glass shattering animation similar to when they went into the mirror universe in the Doctor Strange movie?  What if Thanos winning and killing half the universe actually happened in the mirror dimension where the real world can't be effected.  We just see Thanos thinking he won while he's really trapped giving everyone time to plan a way to truly defeat him.  Probably not,  but could make for a very different twist and keep from getting silly with resurrections.

Dragon_Nexus

Starlord isn't half celestial any more.

That part of him was drawn from Ego. The source of all that power was Ego himself. Ego is dead, so Starlord is purely mortal now.

Besides, the half-population thing was entirely random because it's the only fair way. That's how Thanos saw it. No segregating "Only the richest or smartest" or any nonsense like that. Just hand out numbers. If it's even you live, if it's odd you die. No arguments, no trading, you just die.

ThaRoadWarrior

I liked the movie overall. It has a whole lot going on, and they handled that pacing really well. I wasn't expecting Peter Dinklage, so when he showed up that was pretty great.

I found it kind of meta-fascinating that they 
a) took the hulk out of it, and put banner in a hulk-shaped iron man costume 
b) made it so that Iron Man is the linchpin of saving reality
c) added spider-man to the movie and also made him an iron man
d) brought back Rhody in his role as b-list Iron Man

it's hard not to look at those choices and see them as business decisions: they think we really like Iron Mans (I could personally do with less Iron Mans, but I do acknowledge that Iron Man put these movies on the map), and we really aren't that into the Hulk (I like the Hulk movies more than most people, but I don't think he can carry his own thing either). 

I was fascinated by how ineffectual Vision and Scarlet Witch were for the bulk of the film, until it was situationally important for SW to be super powerful. 

I kind of thought Bucky would have more to do, given he was the stinger at the end of Black Panther and they made such a thing of giving him an arm.

When is the last time we saw Fury? Winter Soldier? The Winter Soldier tie-in to Agents of Shield? 

TPF Alexis

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I kind of thought Bucky would have more to do, given he was the stinger at the end of Black Panther and they made such a thing of giving him an arm.

The Black Panther post-credits scene was a last minute addition, done sometime around when production was wrapping up on both films, and well after the scope of Bucky's role in IW was locked down.

I do agree with you tho that the movie really could have used more Bucky. But then again, I feel that way about all of the MCU flicks

Straycat

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I liked the movie overall. It has a whole lot going on, and they handled that pacing really well. I wasn't expecting Peter Dinklage, so when he showed up that was pretty great.

I found it kind of meta-fascinating that they 
a) took the hulk out of it, and put banner in a hulk-shaped iron man costume 
b) made it so that Iron Man is the linchpin of saving reality
c) added spider-man to the movie and also made him an iron man
d) brought back Rhody in his role as b-list Iron Man

it's hard not to look at those choices and see them as business decisions: they think we really like Iron Mans (I could personally do with less Iron Mans, but I do acknowledge that Iron Man put these movies on the map), and we really aren't that into the Hulk (I like the Hulk movies more than most people, but I don't think he can carry his own thing either). 

I was fascinated by how ineffectual Vision and Scarlet Witch were for the bulk of the film, until it was situationally important for SW to be super powerful. 

I kind of thought Bucky would have more to do, given he was the stinger at the end of Black Panther and they made such a thing of giving him an arm.

When is the last time we saw Fury? Winter Soldier? The Winter Soldier tie-in to Agents of Shield? 

Fury was last in Age of Ultron to save all the people with the helicarrier.
Interesting Iron Man theory, but I thought those choices were more for sake of the story. Hulk, Switch, and Vision, at full strength, should probably be able to hold their own against the black order, if we are to buy that Widow and Okoye can too. So they handicapped them from the beginning. I was expecting Hulk to have a moment and try to save the day, but it made more sense for Thor to do that.
I think it is up to the original Avengers to save the day, mainly because they are older, probably more expensive, and might be ready to move on to other movies. So they get one more movie to be heroes and fully pass the torch to the next phase of the MCU. Or come back if they want.
Iron Spider was teased in his movie, and Rhodey is the last member of team cap. Panther, Widow, Vision, Spidey all went off on their own or switched sides.

I loved the movie, it was very fun and entertaining and in the end very affecting to see all our characters die off. I am very excited to see how the next one goes.

Ragnoluce

n25philly said:

My prediction:

Thanos never actually truly won.  Anyone noticed that during the fight with Thanos on Titan at one point we get the glass shattering animation similar to when they went into the mirror universe in the Doctor Strange movie?  What if Thanos winning and killing half the universe actually happened in the mirror dimension where the real world can't be effected.  We just see Thanos thinking he won while he's really trapped giving everyone time to plan a way to truly defeat him.  Probably not,  but could make for a very different twist and keep from getting silly with resurrections.

Wow I like this a lot--though I worry that it might be a little too nitpicky for folks who didn't see Strange. They were already pretty casual about his various abilities (no one said they were Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, even though we all knew), so it would be hard to hinge the success of the movie on a single scene which was more of an easter egg for fans...

I've been getting wayyy more into the theory that the Ant-Man/Wasp stuff about the Quantum Realm is going to be the lynchpin to fixing Thanos' fiddle in the next movie. It would explain why they thought the more lighthearted movie would slot in-between IW.

Doc L

I just watched it again with a second time, as it was enjoyable if not a ‘great’ Marvel film. I still didn’t like the emotional end-point, given it’s 100% reversible (compared to say Heimdall), it just seems a bit... pointless. 

A few other bits and bobs occurred to me, like the mirror universe mentioned above by other posters. It definitely had the glass-shattering bit in there. Also, why was Scarlet Witch a bit useless then suddenly OP? And, a convenience thing here, but if she can destroy an infinity stone, why didn’t she just destroy his Gauntlet? 

Overall, good, definitely. Just not great I think. And I am worried about how the resolution may end up being a bit... silly/contrived. But I think the Russos are great, so I hope for them to fix it in a good way.

Pongie

I don’t think she can destroy any infinity stone, only the mind stone. Vision figured that was a possibility since her powers came from the mind stone.

Though in the first avengers, it was mentioned that the tesseract cannot defend itself from Loki staff because the powers are alike. So maybe she can at least destroy the space stone too. 

Chrono_Tata

Doc L said:

A few other bits and bobs occurred to me, like the mirror universe mentioned above by other posters. It definitely had the glass-shattering bit in there. Also, why was Scarlet Witch a bit useless then suddenly OP? And, a convenience thing here, but if she can destroy an infinity stone, why didn’t she just destroy his Gauntlet? 

It took a while (30 seconds or something?) for her to destroy the Mind Stone, and at pretty close range. I don't think Thanos would stand around waiting if she tries to attack his Gauntlet.

Doc L

I get all of that, and I thought that too.

However, in the scene, she holds off Thanos for a good 30 seconds with one hand, using her other hand to destroy the stone. Surely, if she focussed while the other Avengers are attacking Thanos, she could have knackered it?

And whilst I agree the mind stone is linked to her, the mind stone told Vision that Thanos was coming, i.e. they are all linked. 

It's all plot driven, of course, it just seemed weird the second time I saw it when I thought of the time-frame.

CT1888

n25philly said:

My prediction:

Thanos never actually truly won.  Anyone noticed that during the fight with Thanos on Titan at one point we get the glass shattering animation similar to when they went into the mirror universe in the Doctor Strange movie?  What if Thanos winning and killing half the universe actually happened in the mirror dimension where the real world can't be effected.  We just see Thanos thinking he won while he's really trapped giving everyone time to plan a way to truly defeat him.  Probably not,  but could make for a very different twist and keep from getting silly with resurrections.

I saw that more as Strange trying to warp reality into the mirror universe, and Thanos, using the reality stone, saying "no"