2* Farming (another thread? really?)

Dormammu

PenniesForEveryone said:

There have been a finite number of events that have occurred, therefore the amount of HP/CP that could have possibly been earned in those events up until this date is also finite. (without spending)

He's got a point, here.

And I think we all agree that its why we farm 2-stars and advise newer players to do it.

tiomono

Dormammu said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

There have been a finite number of events that have occurred, therefore the amount of HP/CP that could have possibly been earned in those events up until this date is also finite. (without spending)

He's got a point, here.

And I think we all agree that its why we farm 2-stars and advise newer players to do it.

There was that brief period when we had ads that could grant you cp or hp randomly, so not every free to play player technically has the same amount of possible cp and hp during the games lifespan.

PenniesForEveryone

Pants1000 said:

aesthetocyst said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

Farming is a thing because it allows you to exchange [readily available] resources (ISO and 2* covers) for ... resources [that are more constrained] (HP and CP).

Maybe the above suggested edit will help reunite the clans, and get us all back to humbly farming our own plots.

Guess Brigby hasnt had a chance to start a thread for his question. The answer is:  the fact that we managed to make lemonade, and that the lemonade is "ok", does not imply we want more lemons. We just had to do something with the lemons at hand.

That language works better.  I get what Pennies is saying, because you can play an infinite number of PVP matches and earn 2* covers and ISO, but you’ll never get CP or HP doing that except through farming.

That's right, and that is why farming is so prevalent.  It's the only F2P way to boost HP/CP earning.

Nick441234

In general, I enjoy 2* farming. It at least limits the disappointment of getting 2* covers. 

NeonBlue

Dormammu said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

There have been a finite number of events that have occurred, therefore the amount of HP/CP that could have possibly been earned in those events up until this date is also finite. (without spending)

He's got a point, here.

And I think we all agree that its why we farm 2-stars and advise newer players to do it.

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Hadronic

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

NeonBlue

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

Is it a hard limit imposed by the game? Does it actually say that you have reached the maximum number of games and cannot play anymore?

Hadronic

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

Is it a hard limit imposed by the game? Does it actually say that you have reached the maximum number of games and cannot play anymore?

Is there a message? no
Is there a hard limit imposed by the game? yes

Do to all the clicking between matches, each match takes at least 10 seconds. That would create an upper bound of 8640 matches in a standard Earth day. 

NeonBlue

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

Is it a hard limit imposed by the game? Does it actually say that you have reached the maximum number of games and cannot play anymore?

Is there a message? no
Is there a hard limit imposed by the game? yes

Do to all the clicking between matches, each match takes at least 10 seconds. That would create an upper bound of 8640 matches in a standard Earth day. 

Again, the idea is hard cap vs. soft cap as implemented by the game, not by the sun. Of course there will always be a limit as to how many things you can do within a 24 hour period, so making that argument doesn't really fit here. The argument in this thread is of infinite vs. finite or limited vs. unlimited resources is based on artificial limits set by the game's developer.

The key point being made here is: After a certain amount of play per day, the game prevents you from gaining any more CP or HP without the use of real money, while only slowing down the potential rate of ISO gain. 

Hadronic

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

Is it a hard limit imposed by the game? Does it actually say that you have reached the maximum number of games and cannot play anymore?

Is there a message? no
Is there a hard limit imposed by the game? yes

Do to all the clicking between matches, each match takes at least 10 seconds. That would create an upper bound of 8640 matches in a standard Earth day. 

Again, the idea is hard cap vs. soft cap as implemented by the game, not by the sun. Of course there will always be a limit as to how many things you can do within a 24 hour period, so making that argument doesn't really fit here. The argument in this thread is of infinite vs. finite or limited vs. unlimited resources is based on artificial limits set by the game's developer.

The key point being made here is: After a certain amount of play per day, the game prevents you from gaining any more CP or HP without the use of real money, while only slowing down the potential rate of ISO gain. 

hard cap, soft cap, call what you want, its still a cap. All resources are finite.
The 24 hour period was chosen by the devs, and corresponds to Earth's rotation, has nothing to do with the sun.

NeonBlue

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

Is it a hard limit imposed by the game? Does it actually say that you have reached the maximum number of games and cannot play anymore?

Is there a message? no
Is there a hard limit imposed by the game? yes

Do to all the clicking between matches, each match takes at least 10 seconds. That would create an upper bound of 8640 matches in a standard Earth day. 

Again, the idea is hard cap vs. soft cap as implemented by the game, not by the sun. Of course there will always be a limit as to how many things you can do within a 24 hour period, so making that argument doesn't really fit here. The argument in this thread is of infinite vs. finite or limited vs. unlimited resources is based on artificial limits set by the game's developer.

The key point being made here is: After a certain amount of play per day, the game prevents you from gaining any more CP or HP without the use of real money, while only slowing down the potential rate of ISO gain. 

hard cap, soft cap, call what you want, its still a cap. All resources are finite.
The 24 hour period was chosen by the devs, and corresponds to Earth's rotation, has nothing to do with the sun.

The earth rotates around....nothing I guess

A square is a rectangle, the earth consists mostly of water, the sky is blue. These statements are all as relevant as saying resources are finite because time and space are finite.

By the same logic, resources are finite because this game will one day shut down, or resources are finite because we'll all die one day. While all true, these "truths" are meaningless because it doesn't allow us to differentiate or discuss. 

By your logic, it wouldn't matter that the devs chose a 24 hour period. They could have chosen 1 day, 3 days, a week, a month. All of these would lead to the same conclusion, since your statement encompasses anything and everything, and thus says nothing. 

Hadronic

NeonBlue said:

The earth rotates around....nothing I guess

A square is a rectangle, the earth consists mostly of water, the sky is blue. These statements are all as relevant as saying resources are finite because time and space are finite.

By the same logic, resources are finite because this game will one day shut down, or resources are finite because we'll all die one day. While all true, these "truths" are meaningless because it doesn't allow us to differentiate or discuss. 

By your logic, it wouldn't matter that the devs chose a 24 hour period. They could have chosen 1 day, 3 days, a week, a month. All of these would lead to the same conclusion, since your statement encompasses anything and everything, and thus says nothing. 

The Earth orbiting around the sun defines what we commonly refer to as a year. I can correct you all day. A day is defined by Earth's spin on its own axis, has nothing to do with the sun.

The point is ISO is not unlimited without bound. I cannot generate infinite ISO in a day. Wish I could though, I seem to be limited to around 50k per day.

NeonBlue

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

The earth rotates around....nothing I guess

A square is a rectangle, the earth consists mostly of water, the sky is blue. These statements are all as relevant as saying resources are finite because time and space are finite.

By the same logic, resources are finite because this game will one day shut down, or resources are finite because we'll all die one day. While all true, these "truths" are meaningless because it doesn't allow us to differentiate or discuss. 

By your logic, it wouldn't matter that the devs chose a 24 hour period. They could have chosen 1 day, 3 days, a week, a month. All of these would lead to the same conclusion, since your statement encompasses anything and everything, and thus says nothing. 

The Earth orbiting around the sun defines what we commonly refer to as a year. I can correct you all day. A day is defined by Earth's spin its own axis, has nothing to do with the sun.

The point is ISO is not unlimited without bound. I cannot generate infinite ISO in a day. Wish I could though, I seem to be limited to around 50k per day.

Since infinity is not a number, no, you cannot earn infinite ISO a day. Even if I had a developer account where I could give myself ISO, I still would not be able to earn infinite ISO a day, because infinity can never be reached. Infinity is a concept, and in this case, it was used to represent a lack of an intended upper limit. A more apt descriptor would be "artificially limited/unlimited." While not infinite, the game's mechanics do not place a limit on how much ISO you can gain. This limit is derived from hardware limitations, time limitations people limitations, roster and team limitations.

The argument here is between actual upper limit and maximum theoretical upper limit. If you're familiar with the "infinite monkey theorem," which states that if a monkey is given a keyboard for an infinite amount of time, and he hits keys at random, he will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare. In this scenario, you're claims of actual upper limit would be analogous to saying that the monkey will surely eventually die, run out of electricity to power the keyboard, or accidentally break the keyboard. 

The point of these posts were to illustrate the relative theoretical value of HP and CP when compared to ISO. The artificial limits placed on CP and HP make them valuable, much like how a low supply of a desired commodity makes it more valuable. IF CP and HP could be earned from PvP like ISO can, then an argument could be made against farming 2*s. 

PenniesForEveryone

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

To use a related word: limited. Without spending real money, the amount of HP and CP gained is LIMITED per day, which means there is a hard cap. ISO on the other hand is not limited. There may be a soft cap in terms of ISO gained through event rewards, but since you gain ISO for PvP wins, there is never a hard upper cap.  

Time to be that guy again, but there is a Limit to the number of matches you can play in a day. Ask the old tappers to learn what that limit is.

Is it a hard limit imposed by the game? Does it actually say that you have reached the maximum number of games and cannot play anymore?

Is there a message? no
Is there a hard limit imposed by the game? yes

Do to all the clicking between matches, each match takes at least 10 seconds. That would create an upper bound of 8640 matches in a standard Earth day. 

Again, the idea is hard cap vs. soft cap as implemented by the game, not by the sun. Of course there will always be a limit as to how many things you can do within a 24 hour period, so making that argument doesn't really fit here. The argument in this thread is of infinite vs. finite or limited vs. unlimited resources is based on artificial limits set by the game's developer.

The key point being made here is: After a certain amount of play per day, the game prevents you from gaining any more CP or HP without the use of real money, while only slowing down the potential rate of ISO gain. 

hard cap, soft cap, call what you want, its still a cap. All resources are finite.
The 24 hour period was chosen by the devs, and corresponds to Earth's rotation, has nothing to do with the sun.

Doesn't matter.  Not one single person has the amount of ISO they earn limited by the game.  Only by the time they are willing to spend playing.  Every single player has the ability to earn more ISO by playing more.  It is not limited by the game.  The same cannot be said of HP or CP.....without spending or farming.

Hadronic

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

The earth rotates around....nothing I guess

A square is a rectangle, the earth consists mostly of water, the sky is blue. These statements are all as relevant as saying resources are finite because time and space are finite.

By the same logic, resources are finite because this game will one day shut down, or resources are finite because we'll all die one day. While all true, these "truths" are meaningless because it doesn't allow us to differentiate or discuss. 

By your logic, it wouldn't matter that the devs chose a 24 hour period. They could have chosen 1 day, 3 days, a week, a month. All of these would lead to the same conclusion, since your statement encompasses anything and everything, and thus says nothing. 

The Earth orbiting around the sun defines what we commonly refer to as a year. I can correct you all day. A day is defined by Earth's spin its own axis, has nothing to do with the sun.

The point is ISO is not unlimited without bound. I cannot generate infinite ISO in a day. Wish I could though, I seem to be limited to around 50k per day.

Since infinity is not a number, no, you cannot earn infinite ISO a day. Even if I had a developer account where I could give myself ISO, I still would not be able to earn infinite ISO a day, because infinity can never be reached. Infinity is a concept, and in this case, it was used to represent a lack of an intended upper limit. A more apt descriptor would be "artificially limited/unlimited." While not infinite, the game's mechanics do not place a limit on how much ISO you can gain. This limit is derived from hardware limitations, time limitations people limitations, roster and team limitations.

The argument here is between actual upper limit and maximum theoretical upper limit. If you're familiar with the "infinite monkey theorem," which states that if a monkey is given a keyboard for an infinite amount of time, and he hits keys at random, he will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare. In this scenario, you're claims of actual upper limit would be analogous to saying that the monkey will surely eventually die, run out of electricity to power the keyboard, or accidentally break the keyboard. 

The point of these posts were to illustrate the relative theoretical value of HP and CP when compared to ISO. The artificial limits placed on CP and HP make them valuable, much like how a low supply of a desired commodity makes it more valuable. IF CP and HP could be earned from PvP like ISO can, then an argument could be made against farming 2*s. 

You keep taking the bait. How do I earn 300k ISO today, I need it to save a 4* cover?

I find myself hoarding CP simply cause I don't have the ISO to champ what comes out of the tokens. I find myself buying HfH I don't really need simply because its a way of converting HP (essentially worthless to me) into ISO. I am completely bottlenecked by ISO as is most of the player base. Why am I bottlenecked by ISO, cause the devs chose to implement its distribution in such a way as that time itself limits how much I can acquire in a day.

I am not arguing against farming 2*s. Its stupid not to.

Im arguing against this language that ISO is unlimited when it isnt and that it is somehow less valuable than HP and CP when it is the source of most peoples resource problems.

NeonBlue

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

Hadronic said:

NeonBlue said:

The earth rotates around....nothing I guess

A square is a rectangle, the earth consists mostly of water, the sky is blue. These statements are all as relevant as saying resources are finite because time and space are finite.

By the same logic, resources are finite because this game will one day shut down, or resources are finite because we'll all die one day. While all true, these "truths" are meaningless because it doesn't allow us to differentiate or discuss. 

By your logic, it wouldn't matter that the devs chose a 24 hour period. They could have chosen 1 day, 3 days, a week, a month. All of these would lead to the same conclusion, since your statement encompasses anything and everything, and thus says nothing. 

The Earth orbiting around the sun defines what we commonly refer to as a year. I can correct you all day. A day is defined by Earth's spin its own axis, has nothing to do with the sun.

The point is ISO is not unlimited without bound. I cannot generate infinite ISO in a day. Wish I could though, I seem to be limited to around 50k per day.

Since infinity is not a number, no, you cannot earn infinite ISO a day. Even if I had a developer account where I could give myself ISO, I still would not be able to earn infinite ISO a day, because infinity can never be reached. Infinity is a concept, and in this case, it was used to represent a lack of an intended upper limit. A more apt descriptor would be "artificially limited/unlimited." While not infinite, the game's mechanics do not place a limit on how much ISO you can gain. This limit is derived from hardware limitations, time limitations people limitations, roster and team limitations.

The argument here is between actual upper limit and maximum theoretical upper limit. If you're familiar with the "infinite monkey theorem," which states that if a monkey is given a keyboard for an infinite amount of time, and he hits keys at random, he will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare. In this scenario, you're claims of actual upper limit would be analogous to saying that the monkey will surely eventually die, run out of electricity to power the keyboard, or accidentally break the keyboard. 

The point of these posts were to illustrate the relative theoretical value of HP and CP when compared to ISO. The artificial limits placed on CP and HP make them valuable, much like how a low supply of a desired commodity makes it more valuable. IF CP and HP could be earned from PvP like ISO can, then an argument could be made against farming 2*s. 

You keep taking the bait. How do I earn 300k ISO today, I need it to save a 4* cover?

I find myself hoarding CP simply cause I don't have the ISO to champ what comes out of the tokens. I find myself buying HfH I don't really need simply because its a way of converting HP (essentially worthless to me) into ISO. I am completely bottlenecked by ISO as is most of the player base. Why am I bottlenecked by ISO, cause the devs chose to implement its distribution in such a way as that time itself limits how much I can acquire in a day.

I am not arguing against farming 2*s. Its stupid not to.

Im arguing against this language that ISO is unlimited when it isnt and that it is somehow less valuable than HP and CP when it is the source of most peoples resource problems.

You most likely won't earn 300k ISO, but you can definitely get closer to that goal the more time you have to grind PvP. The game makes ISO a valuable resource by requiring a huge amount of it, but that's an entirely different discussion. Since the effective use of HP is limited once you get enough roster slots, but ISO isn't, you will spend more time getting and needing ISO than you would getting HP. You are bottlenecked by ISO simply because to complete your roster, you will need millions upon millions of ISO. Also, while HP becomes less useful over time, and ISO becomes more useful over time, remember that to a 1 or 2star player, the situation is often reversed, and newer players are always in a HP drought.

Most players active on this forum are 3* players and above, so their main concern will always be ISO. I don't think anyone would ever suggest that ISO is a less needed (or demanded) resource than HP or CP, just that to a free player, the ways to acquire HP and CP are limited, and the amount you can get per day is also limited regardless of how many hours you are able to put into this game. If this was a discussion about resource demand (and requirements), then yeah for people in the latter half of the game, ISO reigns supreme by far. However, from the beginning, this has been a focus on supply, and the value that is conferred because of availability and limits placed on these resources. 

PenniesForEveryone

Hadronic said:

Im arguing against this language that ISO is unlimited when it isnt and that it is somehow less valuable than HP and CP when it is the source of most peoples resource problems.

It's "unlimited" in that the game hasn't imposed a fixed limit - you are only limited by the amount of time you are willing to play.  The same is not true of HP and CP.  The game does not offer repeatable content which rewards HP and CP indefinitely.  You earn progression rewards once, placement rewards once, node rewards 6 times, resupply once, etc., etc.

It's absurd to claim that ISO is a larger resource problem than CP.  There are F2P players that are post-ISO because they have put in the time and earned what at this point may as well be an infinite amount of ISO.  Obviously it's not infinite, but it's more than they need, or can even spend at this point.

Conversely - do you know any F2P players that have all the 5*s at 550?  Only a handful of them even have all but the latest 5* champed.....CP is BY FAR the source of most peoples' resource problems.  It is CERTAINLY more valuable than ISO. 

Farming is actually a crucial element to this game's economy because it allows players to convert a currency that is not limited by the game (ISO), into a premium currency that is only given out in fixed amounts (CP) without spending.

cschwinge

Back to a less theoretical idea than limited vs unlimited, even high level players probably should be farming 2* because HP can also be converted ISO either through HfH or spending 100 HP daily for a Heroic (getting 250-1000 ISO)

But I suppose the tedium of farming can be a problem compared to "sell all". But that's a waste of 6 HP per 2* cover

Hadronic

PenniesForEveryone said:

It's "unlimited" in that the game hasn't imposed a fixed limit - you are only limited by the amount of time you are willing to play.  The same is not true of HP and CP.  The game does not offer repeatable content which rewards HP and CP indefinitely.  You earn progression rewards once, placement rewards once, node rewards 6 times, resupply once, etc., etc.

PvP awards 2* covers in addition to ISO, that can be converted to ISO, HP and CP through farming 2*. None of the resources are limited by your definition. 

If we account for limited matches in a day, then all resources are limited in a day.

There is no message that pops up that says, sorry you hit your daily ISO cap for the day, same with HP and same with CP.

The devs chose to distribute these 3 resources differently so the limits manifest themselves slightly differently, but they are still there. They are aware of the limits and provide methods to purchase more if needed on all 3 currencies. 

PenniesForEveryone

Hadronic said:

PenniesForEveryone said:

It's "unlimited" in that the game hasn't imposed a fixed limit - you are only limited by the amount of time you are willing to play.  The same is not true of HP and CP.  The game does not offer repeatable content which rewards HP and CP indefinitely.  You earn progression rewards once, placement rewards once, node rewards 6 times, resupply once, etc., etc.

PvP awards 2* covers in addition to ISO, that can be converted to ISO, HP and CP through farming 2*. None of the resources are limited by your definition. 

If we account for limited matches in a day, then all resources are limited in a day.

There is no message that pops up that says, sorry you hit your daily ISO cap for the day, same with HP and same with CP.

The devs chose to distribute these 3 resources differently so the limits manifest themselves slightly differently, but they are still there. They are aware of the limits and provide methods to purchase more if needed on all 3 currencies. 

YES!  Thank you, you've finally made my point.  Farming is the mechanism that turns HP/CP from a resource with a hard limit to one that is only limited by the amount of time you are willing to play.

While there is no message that alerts you, there are hard limits to the HP/CP you can earn without farming.  In fact, most competitive players reach this point every day.  Personally, if I wanted to earn more HP/CP today....I couldn't.  I've completed DDQ, the Prologue, hit max progression in PvE, and since points now go to zero in PvE I couldn't possibly hit progression there.  If I needed more HP or CP for something right now my only options would be to spend or farm.

The same is not true for ISO.  I could continue playing PvP matches earning ISO for as long as I was willing or able to play.