Shield Training - the disconnect continues.

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  • Yasuru
    Yasuru Posts: 99 Match Maker
    I wish they'd come on here and admit that.  Some of us don't hang in discord :)  But thanks for posting!
  • Omega Red
    Omega Red Posts: 366 Mover and Shaker
    I don't lose sleep over this. It's clearly meant for a different kind of guy, the one who chases the latest release during the first week. I'm not that guy and I won't go out of my way to accommodate. 
  • TetsujinOni
    TetsujinOni Posts: 181 Tile Toppler
    edited November 2017
    1/ MEH was available in a token store (release event PVE store)
    2/ MEH was available in Hulk and Friends vault
    3/ 9 covers is sufficient to get to 209.
    4/ I'm not getting THIS LT either.
    5/ Release PVE: 4 covers
        Feature PVE: 1 cover
        Release PvP: 2 covers
        Feature PvE: 1 cover
        SHIELD Training: 1 cover
        and Friends vault: 1 cover

    Planning ahead to buy vaults until you can hit 209 because that's the pattern that EVERY SHIELD TRAINING HAS HAD AFTER THE FIRST is .... just basic pattern recognition that should be possible for anyone who can match 3 competitively.

    I'm actually amazed at how generously the past two SHIELD Training events have favored characters people would have wanted to champ, instead of the punitive Iso sucking strategy I would've used: not-recently-used-for ST 4-stars with the most fully covered but not leveled copies among players with active accounts (i.e. DPD within the current crash).


    So I guess my take is: the only disconnect is the people who did not anticipate this composition as better than their anticipated outcome?
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    Phumade said:
    Meh,  Its a blatant cash grab/paywall  but they are being completely upfront about it.  Nothing much to really tinykitty about.  If thats how they want to spend their labor dollars, then that is their perogative.

    If you can champion a new release inside of their release cycle you get a LT pure and simple.  There are only 10 accessible progression/placement covers,  the rest have to be whaled plain and simple.

    Feel free to show your engagement with this strategy by either playing or not playing the event.  Demi has made a clear decision to say that they will reward players who are willing to whale 3-4 covers to finish them inside a week.  (Whaling the previous release is really no different than paying an extra DLC fee to play shield training)

    Nothing more to complain about when the Community manger states upfront,  "This event is a bonus reward for players who have previously whaled the last release.  As a sweetner bonus if you can champ this release in 5 days you get an extra LT perk"

    If this was Call of duty.  shield training would basically be bonus DLC content.

    So much wrong in this post.  It is a blatant cash grab but they are NOT being up front about it and that is what is rubbing people the wrong way.  They are framing it as an extra event to reward veterans who have worked to have a deep, varied roster but then wall the content behind the newest unreleased characters.  So they are saying "reward vets" when they really mean "reward whales".  There are people on here with 45-50 4* champs plus a handful of 5* champs as well who can't get far at all.  So is their roster not deep or expansive enough?  Of course the answer is "no" because the only thing that matters is if you whale the latest toon.  And having a deep wide roster has very little to do with that as we are all starting with zero covers of the latest character no matter how powerful our roster is or how hard we worked to get it there.
    LOL if you haven't gotten the message Shield training isn't a reward for vets or having a champed 4* tier, or even having the 5* tier maxchamped to 550.

    IT is a reward event for players who have spent money to champion the last 4* release before that character can be covered through natural progression rewards.

    The whole point is to have the event run BEFORE you can champion the release char through natural placements.

    No need to spin this event as something to be enjoyed by the general populace.  They told you this upfront.  To my knowledge, they never intimated or suggested that this event rewards anyone BUT people who whale the last release.


  • hopper1979
    hopper1979 Posts: 565 Critical Contributor
    Do what you can enjoy the extra iso, I cant get very far in them yet either but I like the idea. After a while you should be able to do most of the nodes other than the newest character.
  • Sandmaker
    Sandmaker Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
    I feel like people have blinders on for the last node and are missing the overall benefit of the event. Particularly those saying this event doesn't benefit vets with deep rosters.

    Having a deep roster will let you clear 6 of the 12 nodes in the upper section immediately. 

    Of the remaining 6 nodes, 4 of them are achievable with 4 covers from the previous release. Which is again a fairly easy requirement for vets. 

    This means a vet with a decent roster will be able to do 10/12 nodes and on average walk away with 10k - 15k Iso along with a couple CP and tokens every new release. For doing virtually nothing.  

    Meanwhile someone with a 3* roster will get to do maybe 3 nodes (if they're lucky). 

    How does this event not reward those with deep rosters? Just because you don't get the cover in the last node? Just because they're rewarding whales more? 

    I for one won't be looking this gift horse in the mouth. Please continue to run this event. Actually, run a new one every week, or even every day!



  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pretty much my feelings as well. This an event to reward whales, fine. Just come completely out and say it, but the spin of vets with deep rosters is disingenuous at best and plain insulting at worst.

    Regardless, the current make up featuring the very newest release really just fosters resentment and mistrust towards the devs. Aliening customers and potential customers is just plain bad business, especially for something like this where potentially you can lose more than you can gain by trying participate in it.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    Phumade said:
    Daredevil217 said:

    Ugh. Here’s a direct quote from Brigby:

    S.H.I.E.L.D. Training
    We wanted to provide some more information on the intent behind S.H.I.E.L.D. Training, and what some of the adjustments to it are moving forward.

    It's no surprise that there are players in our community who are long-time supporters of the game, veterans that have been with us since the beginning, and many players in between/in both categories. Having dedicated so much time and effort, these are the players that have worked hard to grow a large and formidable roster. 

    In recognition of this, we wanted to create an extra event that allowed these players to showcase their roster strength, and gain rewards from completing these challenging missions. At the same time though, we still wanted to give other players the opportunity to participate, as an additional bonus to the reward structure players are used to.

    ————————

    Either show me your source that they are being up front about this being a blatant cash grab or please stop spreading misinformation. 
    I don't think its a stretch reading at all to infer.

    "Players who are long-time supporters of the game"
        --- There are two interpretations that are commonly accepted.  "supporter" means: 1.  people who play alot,  2. People who pay alot.  To me, it seems that both of these interpretations would be obvious to the majority of players.  I.e.  you can be the most passionate marvel match 3 fan in world who gives lots of likes and upvotes on whatever social sites,  but this event is not meant to reward that type of support.

    "We wanted to create an extra event that allowed these players to show case their roster strength"
       ---  I.e.  We made an event that caters to those "play" alot or "pay" alot players.


    Based on the current prize patterns in new release pve/pvp events.  It is not theoretically possible to obtain 13 covers via progression or placement in the duration of the shield training event.  No amount of superior play can net you 13 covers in the 7 days that shield training is run.


    Those facts should tell you 1 thing.

    Shield Training is a reward event for players who spend significant ingame resources to whale the latest release character (not the 3rd latest or 4th latest,  the LAST release).

    I'll make this concession.  They could have been more explicit and said.  "Don't expect to complete this event unless you whaled the last release"

    But I think their intent was pretty clear.  This event can only be finished by players who have spent to finish meh hulk.

    Did you read his release as something different?  
  • huktonfonix
    huktonfonix Posts: 214 Tile Toppler
    I don't have any problem with SHIELD training in general.  I've been annoyed at having to change my ISO spending strategy to champ lower priority characters (Px, IW) ahead of others, and mildly stressed to try to get the covers for level 209 for prior release in order to earn the extra covers, but with decent placement I've been able to earn all rewards except the legendary token in each event so far by earning ~8 covers for the new release during the training event, and then 2 more covers from tokens (for level 209) when they enter tokens shortly before being required for the next event.  Seeing that shiny LT there just out of reach is annoying, sure, but that's the idea.  If I really wanted to, I could get the same reward just by forking over cash to buy a heroic 40 pack with a bonus LT.  I recognize this is bonus content that is for people willing to spend to cover the newest shiny thing a few weeks early, and I've accepted not being the target audience.

    My problem is the poor planning on this event, specifically, in requiring ME Hulk before he's even in tokens.  Even if I wanted to spend to get the two covers I'm missing for him, I have no feasible path to do so. Even if this oversight is corrected in the future, it hamstrings me for the foreseeable future because presumably a 209 Nico will be required for the next release and I'll be short the cover I could have earned here, denying me one cover of the next release, setting me back on the next SHIELD training, and so on and so on.




  • alaeth
    alaeth Posts: 446 Mover and Shaker
    edited November 2017
    Before Hulk - Main Event... the last run of Training required Nightcrawler - who was also not in tokens.


    I don't think the Training event is supposed to be "beatable" for the masses.  It's designed (quite specifically) as a carrot that is out of reach.

    Why do I think this?  Because it drives revenue.  Just look at the venom on these posts... people are upset that content is out of reach.  I believe it's been very carefully designed to be out of reach.  The "WANT" drives purchases.  We buy HP, we buy ISO, we spend our CP to level up that character - just to be able to get that last reward.... just... barely..... so close.... out of reach.



    Personally, I have a lot more fun with these events than any other:
    * a chance to try the new character (I deliberately retreat the first event, multiple times, to try out the new character in different ways)
    * an additional source of cp, ISO, etc
    * another diversion from the same endless PvE clears, or the same 5* championed rosters in Simulator
  • aesthetocyst
    aesthetocyst Posts: 538 Critical Contributor
    alaeth said:
    Before Hulk - Main Event... the last run of Training required Nightcrawler - who was also not in tokens.
    NC entered tokens the day the season started. The same day MEH released and his ST run opened.

    Cutting it close but 'crawler was in them there tokens.
  • Kahmon
    Kahmon Posts: 625 Critical Contributor
    My IMHB and Fury are both champed. My ME Hulk has a whole 2 covers. This makes 8 total nodes open to me.

    It took me about 20 minutes to get as fas a was available to me in this event. For that I got several thousand Iso and 3 tokens which yeilded 2×2* & 1 3*. Whould I like to have more open to me? Of course I would, but what I got from 20 mins was pretty damn good. Before the event ends I'll probably pick up an extra command point from the first nico node too.

    Don't fret about what you're not getting and look as what you do get as a bonus.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    alaeth said: II
    Before Hulk - Main Event... the last run of Training required Nightcrawler - who was also not in tokens.


    I don't think the Training event is supposed to be "beatable" for the masses.  It's designed (quite specifically) as a carrot that is out of reach.

    Why do I think this?  Because it drives revenue.  Just look at the venom on these posts... people are upset that content is out of reach.  I believe it's been very carefully designed to be out of reach.  The "WANT" drives purchases.  We buy HP, we buy ISO, we spend our CP to level up that character - just to be able to get that last reward.... just... barely..... so close.... out of reach 
    I could see that aspect, but the rewards are so paltry that you must have to be the most gullible sap to spend actual money on this. Sorry if people spending on it take offence, but the rewards just don't equal the investment. 

    Whales aren't even a factor cause they will spend that money any way. So what, they actually hope that a potential customer, which this is designed for, is gonna blow a ton of cash for some generally 2 star tokens, measly iso pay out, and one 4 star cover (that they know will quickly cover anyways if they've been playing the game for more than a month).

    Really, it kinda borders on predatory microtransactions, which right now, is a very bad move given that there is a major focus on this very issue with gaming.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    smkspy said:
    I could see that aspect, but the rewards are so paltry that you must have to be the most gullible sap to spend actual money on this. Sorry if people spending on it take offence, but the rewards just don't equal the investment. 

    Whales aren't even a factor cause they will spend that money any way. So what, they actually hope that a potential customer, which this is designed for, is gonna blow a ton of cash for some generally 2 star tokens, measly iso pay out, and one 4 star cover (that they know will quickly cover anyways if they've been playing the game for more than a month).

    Really, it kinda borders on predatory microtransactions, which right now, is a very bad move given that there is a major focus on this very issue with gaming.
    Once we get past the idea that this event was specifically designed for people spending on the last releases,  they actually chose a very contestable and interesting target number.

    10 covers to get 4* new release bonus is only achievable by T1/2 type rosters and players.  These rosters see streams of cp/hp/iso.  Its not unusual at all for a T1/2 winner to take close to 30 event tokens depending on event length, alliance affiliations, etc..  These players can easily resource plan to accommodate the 10th cover.  Its a stretch goal but no more of stretch than scoring 4k in high level pvp.

    Its only predator when they intend to mislead the customer/player.  Here they are trying to convert the high tier player (who have grown into ftp status) into a full fledged buying superwhale.  I.e.  There is a very nice sized tier of elite level players who can champion a 4* inside of 2 seasons (keep up with the meta but in a ftp manner), but can not do it in 7 days.  This event designed is to put that tier of player under pressure to compete with true superwhales who champion as a matter of course.

    this won't convert any 4* players in buy clubbers,  but the 5* players will be under pressure to keep up with the buy club whales.  It won't surprise me at all if this bumps up buy clubs in a very subtle way.
  • STOPTHIS
    STOPTHIS Posts: 781 Critical Contributor
    As I said in the SHIELD training announcement thread, I loved the first run of this. 3 older characters that had to be a certain level seemed to be both a reward of longtime or invested players and encouraged leveling up everybody. There's was a separate reward clearly designed for whales and I thought that was fine. Most rewards could be gotten without whaling. Felt like the best of both worlds.

    But every run this gets worse. Now one character isn't even in packs. If the desire is to push newer characters then I agree this run should have been Nightcrawler as a featured character. He's been in packs for 2 weeks or so, giving players plenty of time to pull NC even if only as a bonus hero. If we know it's coming it pushes player not to hoard while still encouraging players to level up everybody.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    I just don't see it, sorry. Having a 209 MEHulk, even a champ MEHulk isn't going ton affect these players level of gameplay. They'r already at the level of being competive enough that one 4 star won't affect their play. Your status doesn't matter, it is impossible now to keep up with true super whales.

    So again, what benefit is there, even for these guys, to waste money on a single 4 star that has little to no effect on their ability to compete? 

    I kinda get your logic, but it seems skewed towards a very very small faction of the customer base at the expense of alienating the vast majority of it. 

    It just comes down to that the rewards just aren't worth the investment. And yes, this does become predatory when they explicitly stated that this event is meant to reward player that deep deep rosters. I have 50+ four star champs, based on their description of the event, I'm the exact player that should benefit from this...but I can't cause I don't spend large amounts of money whaling the newest release.

    Which is fine to me, I'll take what I can get...but it is folly not to think that this isn't meant to spur people that don't any better to spend money on paltry rewards.

    I'll add that if their intent is as you say it as, then the reward wouldn't be a 4 star cover and an LT, but actual 5 stars that would motivate those people to spend spend spend.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    smkspy said:
    I just don't see it, sorry. Having a 209 MEHulk, even a champ MEHulk isn't going ton affect these players level of gameplay. They'r already at the level of being competive enough that one 4 star won't affect their play. Your status doesn't matter, it is impossible now to keep up with true super whales.

    So again, what benefit is there, even for these guys, to waste money on a single 4 star that has little to no effect on their ability to compete? 

    I kinda get your logic, but it seems skewed towards a very very small faction of the customer base at the expense of alienating the vast majority of it. 

    It just comes down to that the rewards just aren't worth the investment. And yes, this does become predatory when they explicitly stated that this event is meant to reward player that deep deep rosters. I have 50+ four star champs, based on their description of the event, I'm the exact player that should benefit from this...but I can't cause I don't spend large amounts of money whaling the newest release.

    Which is fine to me, I'll take what I can get...but it is folly not to think that this isn't meant to spur people that don't any better to spend money on paltry rewards.

    I'll add that if their intent is as you say it as, then the reward wouldn't be a 4 star cover and an LT, but actual 5 stars that would motivate those people to spend spend spend.
    I'll cherry pick and say.
    1.  It may not force anyone into a 1stark buy,  but it will force that tier to spend more resources to maintain their current "lifestyle".  Time and results will tell if this burns off enough cp/hp/iso to force those ftp whales back into buy status (and lets be clear,  they all buy to some extent.  some might be $100 a year, or $100 a week, but they all buy)

    2.  I don't think this a very small fraction of the realistic buying audience at all.  Without looking looking at market analytics,  You could reasonable say that a large portion won't buy under any circumstance.  They enjoy the game for what they can play.

          In the segment of players who "realistically" spend (i.e. have bought in the past, and are comfortable with the idea of spending $100 dollars on disposable entertainment).  This segment spends intermittently and is squarely in that elite tier who can champion a 4* within 3 weeks of entering tokens, but can't champion inside of 7 days(i.e. can't use BH to speed the champ)

          Demi has made a clear attempt to cater to a micro audience who are used to spending money,  but currently are cp/hp/iso/cover postive and see no compelling need to continue buying.  This style of event might actually tip a large portion of those players into cp/hp/iso/cover negative players.  I.e. most elite tier rosters never cared if it took 1 event or 20 events to champion a 4*, because there was no penalty for champion a 4* late (i.e. in 3 seasons as opposed to 1 event).  But now there is a real and measurable advantage to rosters who can champion a 4* in 7 days of release.  

         But hey market results will dictate who's guess is correct.  Either they will see an incremental increase in buy club spending or they will see a drop (and informally try to map the subset of previous buyclubers with people who stopped buying)

    I would certainly agree that this segment is a small (lowercase s) part of the overall player base.  But within the subset of active and retired buyers,  this segment is probably not at all insignificant.

    3.  If the intent was to reward deep rosters they would pick 4* that are old, well covered and champed.  But shield training is not meant to reward deep rosters at all.  I wish it was otherwise, but we would be fooling ourselves if we thought otherwise.  The event only rewards people who can champ the last release without the benefit of BH.

    4.  Honestly,  this event isn't designed to spur general sales to the public.  Its a micro targeted event meant to differentiate elite tier players that spend from those that dont.
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