I miss win based PVP progression...

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  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    IDK, when I join I generally start playing right away. I've hit fresh brackets near the beginning, I've also been #500 before. Still only 3 seeds. In LR I've seen 8-10, in Sakaar Arena I had a few with 8-10, but normal Versus events just 3
  • Sandmaker
    Sandmaker Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
    Milk Jugz said:
    Sandmaker said:
    aesthetocyst said:
    drexyl said:
    I'm on day 868.... 
    You quite a bit more advanced than my alt account is.

    Playing my alt account to 300 is far less painful and time consuming than playing my main account to 40 wins.

    Like, by an order of magnitude.
    Yeah... and the reward difference is also more than an order of magnitude.

    Why are you comparing 300 point to 40 wins? The equivalent needed to get the 10 pack was 12 wins. 8-10 of which could be done with seed teams. 
    Here's that 8-10 seeds thing again.... I've never had more than 3, doesn't matter if I join at start, an hour in, 3 hours, 6, 12, or a full day. If, if, if, if I get seeds it's only 3
    Maybe your device is constantly updating your queue? During the win season, I was able to hit 8-10 on every event consistently. 

    How seed teams work has been figured out for a while now... If you start the second the event starts, your 3 initial nodes and your hidden queue gets filled up with them (because there is no other targets). They don't get wiped out unless your queue updates, or you hard reset your game.    
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sandmaker said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Sandmaker said:
    aesthetocyst said:
    drexyl said:
    I'm on day 868.... 
    You quite a bit more advanced than my alt account is.

    Playing my alt account to 300 is far less painful and time consuming than playing my main account to 40 wins.

    Like, by an order of magnitude.
    Yeah... and the reward difference is also more than an order of magnitude.

    Why are you comparing 300 point to 40 wins? The equivalent needed to get the 10 pack was 12 wins. 8-10 of which could be done with seed teams. 
    Here's that 8-10 seeds thing again.... I've never had more than 3, doesn't matter if I join at start, an hour in, 3 hours, 6, 12, or a full day. If, if, if, if I get seeds it's only 3
    Maybe your device is constantly updating your queue? During the win season, I was able to hit 8-10 on every event consistently. 

    How seed teams work has been figured out for a while now... If you start the second the event starts, your 3 initial nodes and your hidden queue gets filled up with them (because there is no other targets). They don't get wiped out unless your queue updates, or you hard reset your game.    
    So my problem is a technologically superior device? I'll just go with that... Haha...
  • drexyl
    drexyl Posts: 14 Just Dropped In
    aesthetocyst said:
    Sandmaker said:
    aesthetocyst said:
    drexyl said:
    I'm on day 868.... 
    You quite a bit more advanced than my alt account is.

    Playing my alt account to 300 is far less painful and time consuming than playing my main account to 40 wins.

    Like, by an order of magnitude.
    Yeah... and the reward difference is also more than an order of magnitude.

    Why are you comparing 300 point to 40 wins? The equivalent needed to get the 10 pack was 12 wins. 8-10 of which could be done with seed teams. 
    Illiterate or disingenuous?

    The post responded to was complaining that reaching 300pts was hellish in PvP. I called on that, stating I have played my 3* alt acct to 300, and it's not at all a problem. His complaint is silly, and if he thinks reaching his goal of 300pts under this system is a pain, then he should consider reaching my goal, the 4* cover under his preferred system, which requires 40 wins. He wants minor relief for himself, at the cost of major pain on others.

    Oh, and you mentioned seed teams. 1, they can't be counted on; they're very reliable in LRs, very fickle in PvPs. 2, guess what? They exist in both systems. If you are lucky enough to get them, you can get up to 245pts and only need to win 1 or 2 matches to hit 300. Neat, huh?
    I don't appreciate you disregarding my point as "silly".  I know what I like and you can have your opinion on the matter and I'm not here to entertain an Epeen contest.

    I'll make it simple on my proposal not at all expecting everyone to like it.

    Make the 3* rewards win based.  If you need them then select that level then you can grind out the 10 pack reliably.

    Make the 4* rewards points based then you guys can punch each other in the face as much or little as you desire.

    The programming has been done already with both systems.  Then its just an issue or offering both options.


  • Addaran
    Addaran Posts: 72 Match Maker
    aesthetocyst said:

    Oh, and you mentioned seed teams. 1, they can't be counted on; they're very reliable in LRs, very fickle in PvPs. 2, guess what? They exist in both systems. If you are lucky enough to get them, you can get up to 245pts and only need to win 1 or 2 matches to hit 300. Neat, huh?
    Unless i'm mistake, Seed teams lose value as people beat them. If you're not super quick, the often start giving lower points, like 19. So for those with problem hitting 300, even the max amount of seed team is probably not enough. 

    But at the MMR i am, i don't seem to be really hit when i'm under 300. As long as i don't start right at the beginning.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    Addaran said:
    Unless i'm mistake, Seed teams lose value as people beat them. If you're not super quick, the often start giving lower points, like 19. So for those with problem hitting 300, even the max amount of seed team is probably not enough. 

    But at the MMR i am, i don't seem to be really hit when i'm under 300. As long as i don't start right at the beginning.


    Thats not entirely accurate.  The seed teams are fixed in score.  They change value because difference between your score and their score changes after each match.

    Example:

    Seed1 == 50points.

    first match:  your score 0 : seed score 50:  The seeds value to you is around 40points.
    2nd match: your score 40: seed score 50:  The difference of 10 points now means the seed value is around 35
    3rd match:  your score 74: seed score 50:  Now your score is ahead of the seed,  beating the seed is only worth 25.
    3rd match: your score 99:  seed score 50:  so on and so on.

    Seeds are intended to exist until there are sufficient players to replace them.

    People who get 10 seeds have fully populated their que at a time when there weren't enough players to push out the seeds.  (There are many different strategies on what time to open the app to get 10 seeds)  There are many different conditions that can cause the game to refresh the cache.  In all likelyhood, everyone got 3 seeds, but because you didn't play (or do whatever trigger action) the AI was able to replace the seeds with 3 active players.  The full set of conditions that can lock in a que isn't fully understood.  There are several line groups that talk about cache conditions to lock in seeds, or other more specific targets (but its really just theory speculation and practice)

    There are lots of different reasons why you don't get hit under 300 but its largely because:

    Most players have already started and surpassed that score point.  From there perspective,  you look like a 10 point target and conversely They look like a 75pter.

    Their are many different theories on how to play that rely on understanding how to read MMR to figure out what types of targets are available.  but you should try to explore that on your own,.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    Milk Jugz said:
    aesthetocyst said:
    What's all this mess about not being able to get 500pts in an hour?

    I've seen multiple mentions of this.

    That's a low bar. I see players gain far more in an hour, all the time.
    Yep, I've seen it too. I've seen alliance mates go 0-1500 inside an hour
    Last night before bed I went from ~250 to ~950 in Medusa event 6 hrs before the end in about 25-30 minutes, I'm in s1. It's very possible to score far more than 500 points in a half hour, let alone a full hour!!
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Beer40 said:
    I don't miss wins based progression at all. I liked it at first, then it became clear it was just a drag. The vets that tell us over and over "you'll like wins based until you develop your roster" are right. Wins based is great for some people. Then you hit a tipping point where you listen to the vets + your roster is capable of what they tell you to do = way less than 40 wins for a 4* cover.

    Sorry, unless they lower the 4* cover to 25 wins, tops, I don't think I could ever go back.

    Even then, I don't think I'd want to. There's fun in risking your points to go for the next reward. Excitement. I don't get excited by seeing my win counter going up by 1 after knocking out a dual 5* team that is much stronger than mine. I get excited seeing my score jump substantially because I gained 60+ points for fighting a tougher team. And I get to the next goal much quicker than with +1.
    Being in the 780-790 range, hitting a big match, and then getting the 3* cover, 2500 Iso, and event token all in one fell swoop is one of the most satisfying feelings I get playing this game. Same with getting the event token and the 4* cover when you're sitting in the 830-840 ish range. 

    The rush of getting the reward, the anxiety of getting into an important high-point match not knowing for sure if you'll win, clicking through the post-match screens as quick as you can so you can hurry up and shield.....gets the adrenaline going, and kinda affirms that you're playing the game at it's highest level. It's easy to get sucked into autopilot doing the same number of PVE clears everyday using usually the same kinds of teams. 
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    @drexyl I love your 1-6 idea. If they can change 7-9 pve they change parts of pvp without people complaining.
  • JaGo
    JaGo Posts: 103 Tile Toppler

    Boy I may get Ramsey Bolton style flayed here, but wouldn't the obvious fix be just to stop losing points for a loss? In wins based you didn't lose a win if you were attacked. Why not do that for points based? I am seriously asking why that would be a bad change?

    -JaGo
  • ursopro
    ursopro Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    JaGo said:

    Boy I may get Ramsey Bolton style flayed here, but wouldn't the obvious fix be just to stop losing points for a loss? In wins based you didn't lose a win if you were attacked. Why not do that for points based? I am seriously asking why that would be a bad change?

    -JaGo
    That will bring another problem which is alliance and players collusion to acquire monster scores.

    Not that it doesn't happen right now with shield check rooms but at least that requires some kind of coordination.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    JHawkInc said:
    WEBGAS said:
    Beta-Ray Bill said:
    Play pve. It advances much faster. Leave pvp alone. You may advance in it now but you will not in the future. You’ll hit a wall and never move because bigger rosters can only advance with the cp you can’t get due to 2300 point scores
    Sorry, but pve it's a completely mess right now. Bigger rosters dropped down to scl8 and scl7 where they can easily dominate. So forget top10 if you re are aiming to it.
    I don't condamn them (maybe I would do the same if I was in their shoes)....but opening scl9 is not enough if the rewards are not worth the efforts they require
    Slices have 1,000 people, literally 99% of the people that play can't get t10. Not being able to get t10 is hardly a reason to write off an entire game mode. PVE still advances you faster than PVP does.
    /thread.

    Why does this have 8 pages?
  • spiderpool
    spiderpool Posts: 76 Match Maker
    Not losing points would be bad if you care about placement,  the person who wins 1st place would just be whoever plays non stop to get 100000000000000 points.  And they probably don't want every single player to be able to win the cp at 1200.
  • FokaiHI
    FokaiHI Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
    People still posting. Lol. Discussion done. 
  • Bryan Lambert
    Bryan Lambert Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
    If D3 really wanted to improve the quality of these forums tenfold, all they’d need to do is take f-bombs out of the “tinykitty” filter and put “participation trophies” in it.
  • drexyl
    drexyl Posts: 14 Just Dropped In
    JaGo said:

    Boy I may get Ramsey Bolton style flayed here, but wouldn't the obvious fix be just to stop losing points for a loss? In wins based you didn't lose a win if you were attacked. Why not do that for points based? I am seriously asking why that would be a bad change?

    -JaGo
    Yes that would definantly be a solution to most of my complaints.  I'd just deal with being stuck with all Gamora/Groot/Medusa teams.  I mean I CAN beat them...sometimes...with a good board.  But it WILL cost me 3 health packs every time.
  • drexyl
    drexyl Posts: 14 Just Dropped In
    ursopro said:
    JaGo said:

    Boy I may get Ramsey Bolton style flayed here, but wouldn't the obvious fix be just to stop losing points for a loss? In wins based you didn't lose a win if you were attacked. Why not do that for points based? I am seriously asking why that would be a bad change?

    -JaGo
    That will bring another problem which is alliance and players collusion to acquire monster scores.

    Not that it doesn't happen right now with shield check rooms but at least that requires some kind of coordination.
    MOST of us don't really care about what you alliance guys deal with?
  • Sandmaker
    Sandmaker Posts: 208 Tile Toppler
    aesthetocyst said:
    Sandmaker said:
    aesthetocyst said:
    drexyl said:
    I'm on day 868.... 
    You quite a bit more advanced than my alt account is.

    Playing my alt account to 300 is far less painful and time consuming than playing my main account to 40 wins.

    Like, by an order of magnitude.
    Yeah... and the reward difference is also more than an order of magnitude.

    Why are you comparing 300 point to 40 wins? The equivalent needed to get the 10 pack was 12 wins. 8-10 of which could be done with seed teams. 
    Illiterate or disingenuous?

    You're clearly both? =/

    That's his experience, who are you to say otherwise? Not everyone's the god of matching gems that you apparently are. The fact that you even own an "alt" that can hit 300 speaks worlds about how far removed you are from the experience of an actual casual player. 

    And no, you can't get to 245 with seed teams, because hitting that many seed teams pushes you ahead of the crowd. By 150, a 3* roster will start getting hit for more than than can gain from doing more seeds. So no, it's not the same in both systems. But of course you knew that, because you made quite a lovely post last month whining about how much better seed teams are in a win-based system than a points-based system.

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