I miss win based PVP progression...

Beta-Ray Bill

sirwookieechris said:

Beta-Ray Bill said:

Play pve. It advances much faster. Leave pvp alone. You may advance in it now but you will not in the future. You’ll hit a wall and never move because bigger rosters can only advance with the cp you can’t get due to 2300 point scores

If pvp was only meant for the vets, there would be no point in having different CLs, would there? Pvp score based has always been an issue, no matter what clearance level you were at. Between funky mmr, whales dropping down to lower CLs for easier placement, and a system that encourages alliance members to boost each other up to 1200, there is obviously something broken in there that the devs need to fix.

was what we saw with the win season it? Not in its current state. But they are working on it. But scaring off rookies doesn’t help the situation.

I’m thinking you completely misread my statement. In the win based system, newer rosters may get the 4* shiny at the end of the rainbow, but will never place. Too many big rosters want that placement cp and THAT is what gets you out of 4* land. Not winning 40 matches. I’ve been hitting 1200 since my 3* meta days and can easily say it is doable more so than placing top 10 against point hungry large rosters

Vhailorx

Tc: this isn't meamt to pick on you specifically, jist uaing your post as an example of a genre of complaint that i see a lot.

I really dont understand posts that complain about PVP in this way: "pvp sucks because i get to [Score X], and then i start losing points faster than i gain them."

It's perfectly reasonable to find that scenario annoying.  I find it annoying too.  But that sentance describes literally everyone's experience in pvp.  Even players with level 500+ 5* champs will take hits if they float too long at too high a score.  The only thing thay changes is that Score X goes up as one's roster gets better.

There are lots of problems with the points-based pvp system, and wins-based progression solved some and exacerbated others.  Going back to old system is preferable to the new system, but that doesn't mean that it is good.  Demi needs to come up with a new solution that works for more players.

Jwallyr

I posted my own thread about this, and I'm not going to rehash it all here. I'm just going to say that points-based "progression" is not "progression", and it does not satisfy players who can't/won't invest in the time and strategies that are required to be competitive for placement.

So, basically points-based "progression" is a slightly different version of placement, and caters to exactly the same set of players while leaving more casual players with zero incentive to bother. I'm not clear how this is good for the game or the player base.

Wins-based progression was a breath of fresh air from the points-based **** that was going on when I first started playing the game. Going back to score-based progression without some kind of mechanic that accounts for "lifetime points gained" instead of raw score is a great way to ensure that I invest the minimum amount of time possible to get the easiest low-end rewards, and will be much less engaged.

Vhailorx

Jwallyr said:

I posted my own thread about this, and I'm not going to rehash it all here. I'm just going to say that points-based "progression" is not "progression", and it does not satisfy players who can't/won't invest in the time and strategies that are required to be competitive for placement.

So, basically points-based "progression" is a slightly different version of placement, and caters to exactly the same set of players while leaving more casual players with zero incentive to bother. I'm not clear how this is good for the game or the player base.

Wins-based progression was a breath of fresh air from the points-based tinykitty that was going on when I first started playing the game. Going back to score-based progression without some kind of mechanic that accounts for "lifetime points gained" instead of raw score is a great way to ensure that I invest the minimum amount of time possible to get the easiest low-end rewards, and will be much less engaged.

Your arguments aren't wrong.  But one could easily construct an equally valid, inverse argument about win based pvp.  What system works better for player X or player Y is not a super helpful frame for this debate; it's too subjective.

I think it's better to think about the value of any given change from the perspective of the whole playerbase.  I argue that the old system is better than the new system (though still not actually good!) because it provides for:

(1) a pretty good reward:time invested ratio relative to other activitites; and 

(2) better and better rewards as players get stronger rosters.

By contrast the new system:

(1) required far more effort from players for eqivalent (or worse) rewards; and

(2) actually got worse as a player's roster got stronger because it made cp harder to get during the 5* transition, and forced players to grind 40+ wins against brutal 5* teams due to mmr.

So over the course of a player's entire mpq career,  the wins based (as inplemented) is actually a much less compelling system, even if it was better for some, specific phases of life.

sirwookieechris

Beta-Ray Bill said:

sirwookieechris said:

Beta-Ray Bill said:

Play pve. It advances much faster. Leave pvp alone. You may advance in it now but you will not in the future. You’ll hit a wall and never move because bigger rosters can only advance with the cp you can’t get due to 2300 point scores

If pvp was only meant for the vets, there would be no point in having different CLs, would there? Pvp score based has always been an issue, no matter what clearance level you were at. Between funky mmr, whales dropping down to lower CLs for easier placement, and a system that encourages alliance members to boost each other up to 1200, there is obviously something broken in there that the devs need to fix.

was what we saw with the win season it? Not in its current state. But they are working on it. But scaring off rookies doesn’t help the situation.

I’m thinking you completely misread my statement. In the win based system, newer rosters may get the 4* shiny at the end of the rainbow, but will never place. Too many big rosters want that placement cp and THAT is what gets you out of 4* land. Not winning 40 matches. I’ve been hitting 1200 since my 3* meta days and can easily say it is doable more so than placing top 10 against point hungry large rosters

But the issue of the cp loss wasn’t because of the win system. It was the devs taking cp out of progression. If they left cp in placement, the issue would still be there in point based. They tried to limit CP and because of that they messed up their own trial of win based season.

Spudgutter

aesthetocyst said:

Suddenly an outburst of nostalgia for wincount PvP. many new and rarely seen names on the forum.

That's all great, but it may have been more effective to have joined the "debate" a month ago. To have sang its praises on its advent, rather than bemoan its exit. Be proactive, rather than reactive.

Silly humans, nothing motivates'em better than "got beef"

to be fair, i did suggest several times that there were probably plenty of people that liked the new system, but didn't come on just to praise it.  that's now how the internet usually works, unfortunately.

BigMike182

Spudgutter said:

aesthetocyst said:

Suddenly an outburst of nostalgia for wincount PvP. many new and rarely seen names on the forum.

That's all great, but it may have been more effective to have joined the "debate" a month ago. To have sang its praises on its advent, rather than bemoan its exit. Be proactive, rather than reactive.

Silly humans, nothing motivates'em better than "got beef"

to be fair, i did suggest several times that there were probably plenty of people that liked the new system, but didn't come on just to praise it.  that's now how the internet usually works, unfortunately.

I highly doubt the devs care what we post here. Win-based progression was probably discontinued because:

a) they're crunching numbers to figure out the overall affect; or

b) profits went down.

BigMike182

Sorry for the bad formatting on the last post. I tried to correct a mistake and it came out kind of ugly.

Anyway, I started playing the new season of PVP. I've already lost a lot of points after playing a handful of matches. I might just play to 575 to get the 10 CP and be slightly bitter.

Dotproduct

BigMike182 said:

Anyway, I started playing the new season of PVP. I've already lost a lot of points after playing a handful of matches. I might just play to 575 to get the 10 CP and be slightly bitter.

I haven't lost any yet (I'm opposite time to the US) but 8 matches in, and I'm not even half way to the 575 target and likely won't get there once I get hit back down when the US wakes up.

Beta-Ray Bill

sirwookieechris said:

Beta-Ray Bill said:

sirwookieechris said:

Beta-Ray Bill said:

Play pve. It advances much faster. Leave pvp alone. You may advance in it now but you will not in the future. You’ll hit a wall and never move because bigger rosters can only advance with the cp you can’t get due to 2300 point scores

If pvp was only meant for the vets, there would be no point in having different CLs, would there? Pvp score based has always been an issue, no matter what clearance level you were at. Between funky mmr, whales dropping down to lower CLs for easier placement, and a system that encourages alliance members to boost each other up to 1200, there is obviously something broken in there that the devs need to fix.

was what we saw with the win season it? Not in its current state. But they are working on it. But scaring off rookies doesn’t help the situation.

I’m thinking you completely misread my statement. In the win based system, newer rosters may get the 4* shiny at the end of the rainbow, but will never place. Too many big rosters want that placement cp and THAT is what gets you out of 4* land. Not winning 40 matches. I’ve been hitting 1200 since my 3* meta days and can easily say it is doable more so than placing top 10 against point hungry large rosters

But the issue of the cp loss wasn’t because of the win system. It was the devs taking cp out of progression. If they left cp in placement, the issue would still be there in point based. They tried to limit CP and because of that they messed up their own trial of win based season.

That won’t stop big rosters from taking your placement rewards. Trust me

The rockett

They did the first test of the win based PVP system in the offseason.  A lot of vets came here, sent emails, sent PMs warning about the CP removal and what this message and result will be.  So they ran a 2nd test and didn't change anything.  Same results.  Posted on the forums, Discord, FB, sent emails and PMs with the concerns. Then they roll out the Win based PVP system after 1450 days of the point based system.  Nothing changed from
thr tests that they did. The backlash was massive. For me and others, the WIN based PVP and removing the CP from progression are tied together. They cannot be separated UNLESS D3/Demi runs a test where they are seperated. We can give theories and idea and say if they do X this will work. At the end of the day, WIN based PVP and CP progression removal are tied together until their is a test that doesn't tie them together. 

JaGo

aesthetocyst said:

Suddenly an outburst of nostalgia for wincount PvP. many new and rarely seen names on the forum.

That's all great, but it may have been more effective to have joined the "debate" a month ago. To have sang its praises on its advent, rather than bemoan its exit. Be proactive, rather than reactive.

Silly humans, nothing motivates'em better than "got beef"

We did, by actually playing pvp. They have the data, no need to join a forum where positive feedback tends to get drowned out. I played every test event that was win based and almost every event this last season. I absolutely hate the points based pvp because losing a round stops my progression so I just stay away.  Wins based was loved by every member of my alliance...every member. And just because we all didn't pop on this forum does not negate our legitimacy, like I mentioned, the data that we hear so much about from the devs is our proof. 

-JaGo

Vhailorx

JaGo said:

aesthetocyst said:

Suddenly an outburst of nostalgia for wincount PvP. many new and rarely seen names on the forum.

That's all great, but it may have been more effective to have joined the "debate" a month ago. To have sang its praises on its advent, rather than bemoan its exit. Be proactive, rather than reactive.

Silly humans, nothing motivates'em better than "got beef"

We did, by actually playing pvp. They have the data, no need to join a forum where positive feedback tends to get drowned out. I played every test event that was win based and almost every event this last season. I absolutely hate the points based pvp because losing a round stops my progression so I just stay away.  Wins based was loved by every member of my alliance...every member. And just because we all didn't pop on this forum does not negate our legitimacy, like I mentioned, the data that we hear so much about from the devs is our proof. 

-JaGo

There is no way demi didnt have some very bad engagement numbers in front of them to make this change so quickly.  They have ignored far more player outrage in the past.  I thinknot would be a mostake to view this change as something opposed by thebsipent majority, but forn purely to serve a vocal minority.  This happened because wins-based pvp had undesired (by demi) collateral effects on sone important internal metrics.

bluewolf

Long story short, if a majority of FTP (or VIP) folks liked wins based but did not suddenly spend $100 a month, and a lot of the $100-$300 spenders stopped spending, well. High end engagement dropped, low end might have gone up but how much?

CP in progresssion is hard to square with wins based rewards, from devs point of view. They need to have an incentive to place and shield.  1200 is - unless I’m way off - a must-Shield goal, so removing that requirement is pretty big from an HP flow perspective.  And you may not spend HP just to shield, but all HP usage in total creates pressure to buy more.

I’m sure they thought people at the high end would swallow the pill and keep playing for CP in placement, due to sunk costs etc. They were wrong. 

We will see what the devs find acceptable as an system that benefits the players more.

Qubort

WEBGAS said:

Beta-Ray Bill said:

Play pve. It advances much faster. Leave pvp alone. You may advance in it now but you will not in the future. You’ll hit a wall and never move because bigger rosters can only advance with the cp you can’t get due to 2300 point scores

Sorry, but pve it's a completely mess right now. Bigger rosters dropped down to scl8 and scl7 where they can easily dominate. So forget top10 if you re are aiming to it.
I don't condamn them (maybe I would do the same if I was in their shoes)....but opening scl9 is not enough if the rewards are not worth the efforts they require

The OP stated he is casual player. I'm sorry but I find it unrealistic that someone plays casual expects top PVP rewards or top 10 PVE rewards. 

Jwallyr

Qubort said:

WEBGAS said:

Beta-Ray Bill said:

Play pve. It advances much faster. Leave pvp alone. You may advance in it now but you will not in the future. You’ll hit a wall and never move because bigger rosters can only advance with the cp you can’t get due to 2300 point scores

Sorry, but pve it's a completely mess right now. Bigger rosters dropped down to scl8 and scl7 where they can easily dominate. So forget top10 if you re are aiming to it.
I don't condamn them (maybe I would do the same if I was in their shoes)....but opening scl9 is not enough if the rewards are not worth the efforts they require

The OP stated he is casual player. I'm sorry but I find it unrealistic that someone plays casual expects top PVP rewards or top 10 PVE rewards. 

Is there not intended to be a difference between Placement (i.e. competitive) and Progression (i.e. noncompetitive) rewards in PvP? It seems obvious to me that the Progression reward scheme is at least supposed to be a less-competitive option for more casual players. If it's not, what's the incentive for casual players to compete in PvP at all? Are we supposed to be checked out entirely from PvP and just play PvE? Is that good for the game? I would say no.

SangFroid

JaGo said:

aesthetocyst said:

Suddenly an outburst of nostalgia for wincount PvP. many new and rarely seen names on the forum.

We did, by actually playing pvp. They have the data, no need to join a forum where positive feedback tends to get drowned out. I played every test event that was win based and almost every event this last season. I absolutely hate the points based pvp because losing a round stops my progression so I just stay away.  Wins based was loved by every member of my alliance...every member. And just because we all didn't pop on this forum does not negate our legitimacy, like I mentioned, the data that we hear so much about from the devs is our proof. 

-JaGo

JaGo how many shields did you or your alliance members use throughout the test season? How much money did you or your alliance spend during the test season?

I am asking not to be crass or be a jerk but THOSE answers are important metrics. If you and everyone in your alliance played way more PVP than usual and each made 40 wins each event and spent the same or less money and got way more rewards than you normally would have that is not a positive metric for D3. 

SangFroid

aesthetocyst said:

SangFroid said: ... I am asking not to be crass or be a jerk but THOSE answers are important metrics. If you and everyone in your alliance played way more PVP than usual and each made 40 wins each event and spent the same or less money and got way more rewards than you normally would have that is not a positive metric for D3. 

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Is D3/Demi in this for the short-term or the long-term money?
_______________

If they played more PvP they may have used more health packs.

 If they won more covers they may have needed more slots than otherwise, and or be driven to play other areas of the game harder to earn even more in order to make covers usable.

I hear what you are saying...

If they were in it for the long haul they would have developed a new game mode every 6 months so that over the long term people would be way more engaged for a much longer time and therefore likely to spend much more over a longer play lifecycle. 

We have a model where they are chasing the money spent on new characters every week... playing the long game is not in D3’s playbook

TriggerTime

AngryGerman said:

Can’t you just hop in your Tardis and enjoy the golden days of the previous season again? 

Unfortunately it's a fixed point in time, in his own timestream.


I also miss win-based PvP but they're constantly tweaking this game, and the best we can do is adjust strategies accordingly. I suppose one advantage of points based PvP is that (at least in my experience) the early stages offer easier MMR. Also, the OP stated he could get to 700; if he can get to that point he could presumably also shield hop to 900 with reasonable success.

mega ghost

I'm especially missing it right now playing the the Raging Fire PvP. I got to ~800 and shielded. Came back right before my shields ran out and figured I'd make the climb to 900 so I could grab a Hulk cover. It's after 3AM, how active could it be? Well, I've easily played 20 matches trying to get there. Each time I win a match, I find I'm down by at least 20 points more than I won. Finally thought it was mine, I was at 878 and won a 50 point match — nope! I'm down to 723. I had to shield and give up. In the time I took to type this I was attacked about 6 more times.

I don't care about placement. I just want that cover. Tediously climbing to 40 wins wasn't a fun experience and bored me to tears, but this is a terrible experience. You should never lose progression. Win-based PvP was flawed and needed adjustments, but it was definitely a step in the right direction.