Updates to S.H.I.E.L.D. Training (10/17/17)

veny

abmoraz said:

veny said:

Not only level requirement remained intact, but they even put Roque as a required character, making top rewards completely Pay2Win...

The irony is, it's not even PtW.  You can't pay to improve the powers until you actually get the powers.  Someone who only has 1 or 2 colors for rogue can't even pay to get her high enough to complete the mission.

Buying covers that contains her, maybe? 
Whales did that already so technically... PayaLot2Win

broll

abmoraz said:

veny said:

Not only level requirement remained intact, but they even put Roque as a required character, making top rewards completely Pay2Win...

The irony is, it's not even PtW.  You can't pay to improve the powers until you actually get the powers.  Someone who only has 1 or 2 colors for rogue can't even pay to get her high enough to complete the mission.

It is.  If these keep coming out with every new release the only way to get them will be to spend money on HP to get them from their store (very low % chance) or to use CP to add levels once you have them to 1/1/1, which you also get CP when you make purchases and people don't earn enough to spend thousands of CP every 2-4 weeks.  

Whales tend to have 10s of thousands of HP and thousands of CP on the waiting and if they don't don't mind throwing more money to get it.  That's who this is for.  No one else.

cactusrob

Level 209 Rogue? Come on guys, that's just ridiculous. She was only just released!! 

thedarkphoenix

ok so the rogue thing is a bad look, I mean i get. Other f2p games live and die by this kind of thing. But MQP you have a pretty good track record as far as a lot of things go that a lot of forum goes dont give you props for.

Rogue not even being in tokens (until this event) yet  and being required at 209 for another character is a bit of over kill.

Either require higher levels for more common characters or require newer characters with a bit of a lower level requirement.

Fabmammouth

Ridiculous event again, you still need Rogue lvl 209 and now also nightcrawler that is not yet available. I thought previous event has bad conception, but this event is even worst... this is a joke, isn t it ?

Killians8

abmoraz said:

Killians8 said:

n25philly said:

Looking forward to getting 0 Nightcrawler covers just like I got 0 Rouge's the last time.

If you can't achieve Top 100 to get that first cover, then you're either not willing to play hard enough to achieve that or...you're roster isn't ready to make the cut. If it's the latter, we've all experienced that and nobody gets to skip it. It's part of the achievement structure of this game.

This statement infuriates me every time I read it.  The options you gave him are myopic.  Let's examine both of them:

Option A: He's not playing hard enough.  Let's assume he plays harder.  He gets in the top 100.  Now that just means there is someone else that finished at 101 and didn't get the cover and that person is upset.  So that person then plays harder and yet a different person is on the outside looking in.  You haven't solved anything with this option.  All you have done is changed the name at the top of the post.  No matter how hard anyone player or multiple players try, there will always be someone on the outside looking in.  You've just caused an increase in effort to get the same prize.  Congratulations!  You invented inflation.



Option B: His roster just isn't good enough to place.  This one is a bit more realistic, however, it has a nasty implication as well.  As he improves, everyone around him is improving as well.  Because placement rewards are comparative between him and his peers, nothing changes.  So he has to improve, but he has to improve at a rate faster than those he is directly competing against.  If he does, then he can move up into the top 100.  If he can't, he's forever locked out just because he started the game later than those he's in the same groupings as.  The most realistic outcome here is for him to hope people quit the game or that more people join after him so that he has the more advanced roster.   Again, this doesn't solve the issue, it just changes who is getting tinykitty.

Note: I'm not mad at you, Killians8, just the theory that placement rewards are a viable way for the player base as a whole to get better.  They are a zero-sum game.  For one player to get better, it necessitates another to not get better.  Telling people to "Get Gud" doesn't help, as it just changes who is getting tinykitty and doesn't fix the underlying issue of scarcity of a required resource.  The real solutions are to either:
     A. remove the artificial scarcity (i.e.: more progression rewards and less placement)
or B. remove the utterly arbitrary artificial barrier to playing the event.  Remove the tinykittying level requirement.  If you have the cover than you can try.  Who cares if it's level 1 or level 500??

Option A response: It sounds like you want there to be no placement and believe in participation trophies. Seems unrealistic to me to reward everyone the same whether they play one node vs. more nodes. 

You seem to think there is a larger problem to solve than I do. Not saying either one of us is right, but we do disagree.

Option B: I can only use my own experience as anecdotal evidence here as I can't speak to yours or others. I have seen my own rankings in both PvE and PvP improved over time simply by adding and improving my roster even with many other players doing the same. If that weren't the case, I probably would have quit long ago because it would have been too frustrating to see my roster get better, but not see any rewards improvement.

I myself rarely play for placement which is probably why I'm less upset about this than others. I'm mostly a progression player and most things are eventually achievable to me if I put out the effort I'm willing to put out.

Certainly these Shield Training Events don't feel great because the best rewards aren't really available to most of us. Frankly, I feel like I win by not falling prey to D3 tactics and shelling out money out of desperation for a ONE extra toon cover that I'll eventually get enough of simply by the way I play PvE and cash in CP. 

Do I dislike like what it seems like they're trying to do? Only a little because I again I don't feel forced to do anything. 

I'm also not mad and enjoy the respectful discussion. A lot of this comes down to people who can accept the situation for what it is (which doesn't mean thinking it's fair or liking it) and those who cannot accept and feel more pain than those of us who choose to play a game the way it is set up and not the way we think or wish it would be.

Thanks for your reply.

abmoraz

Killians8 said:

abmoraz said:

Killians8 said:

n25philly said:

Looking forward to getting 0 Nightcrawler covers just like I got 0 Rouge's the last time.

If you can't achieve Top 100 to get that first cover, then you're either not willing to play hard enough to achieve that or...you're roster isn't ready to make the cut. If it's the latter, we've all experienced that and nobody gets to skip it. It's part of the achievement structure of this game.

This statement infuriates me every time I read it.  The options you gave him are myopic.  Let's examine both of them:

Option A: He's not playing hard enough.  Let's assume he plays harder.  He gets in the top 100.  Now that just means there is someone else that finished at 101 and didn't get the cover and that person is upset.  So that person then plays harder and yet a different person is on the outside looking in.  You haven't solved anything with this option.  All you have done is changed the name at the top of the post.  No matter how hard anyone player or multiple players try, there will always be someone on the outside looking in.  You've just caused an increase in effort to get the same prize.  Congratulations!  You invented inflation.



Option B: His roster just isn't good enough to place.  This one is a bit more realistic, however, it has a nasty implication as well.  As he improves, everyone around him is improving as well.  Because placement rewards are comparative between him and his peers, nothing changes.  So he has to improve, but he has to improve at a rate faster than those he is directly competing against.  If he does, then he can move up into the top 100.  If he can't, he's forever locked out just because he started the game later than those he's in the same groupings as.  The most realistic outcome here is for him to hope people quit the game or that more people join after him so that he has the more advanced roster.   Again, this doesn't solve the issue, it just changes who is getting tinykitty.

Note: I'm not mad at you, Killians8, just the theory that placement rewards are a viable way for the player base as a whole to get better.  They are a zero-sum game.  For one player to get better, it necessitates another to not get better.  Telling people to "Get Gud" doesn't help, as it just changes who is getting tinykitty and doesn't fix the underlying issue of scarcity of a required resource.  The real solutions are to either:
     A. remove the artificial scarcity (i.e.: more progression rewards and less placement)
or B. remove the utterly arbitrary artificial barrier to playing the event.  Remove the tinykittying level requirement.  If you have the cover than you can try.  Who cares if it's level 1 or level 500??

Option A response: It sounds like you want there to be no placement and believe in participation trophies. Seems unrealistic to me to reward everyone the same whether they play one node vs. more nodes. 

You seem to think there is a larger problem to solve than I do. Not saying either one of us is right, but we do disagree.

Option B: I can only use my own experience as anecdotal evidence here as I can't speak to yours or others. I have seen my own rankings in both PvE and PvP improved over time simply by adding and improving my roster even with many other players doing the same. If that weren't the case, I probably would have quit long ago because it would have been too frustrating to see my roster get better, but not see any rewards improvement.

I myself rarely play for placement which is probably why I'm less upset about this than others. I'm mostly a progression player and most things are eventually achievable to me if I put out the effort I'm willing to put out.

Certainly these Shield Training Events don't feel great because the best rewards aren't really available to most of us. Frankly, I feel like I win by not falling prey to D3 tactics and shelling out money out of desperation for a ONE extra toon cover that I'll eventually get enough of simply by the way I play PvE and cash in CP. 

Do I dislike like what it seems like they're trying to do? Only a little because I again I don't feel forced to do anything. 

I'm also not mad and enjoy the respectful discussion. A lot of this comes down to people who can accept the situation for what it is (which doesn't mean thinking it's fair or liking it) and those who cannot accept and feel more pain than those of us who choose to play a game the way it is set up and not the way we think or wish it would be.

Thanks for your reply.

No worries, I just thought we were diverging from the original argument.  As to your response to part A, I think we have to agree to disagree.  My observations (both from my play and from the forums) is that Placement awards, or more accurately the emphasis put on placement rewards, is the most common source of frustration and pain for the player-base.  The placement rewards is the go-to response anytime someone says that a card is too rare or too hard to acquire.  My argument was that placement rewards are a finite resource.  Telling an individual that they can try harder only shifts the pain from one individual to another.  Tying future events to those rewards creates a cascading failure state that no amount of hard work or effort can overcome (and in this case, it's doubtful that a player can even buy their way out of the hole).  So while we disagree in the severity of the problem, I do still see it as a major issue.

Option B response: I'm 100% on board with you there.  I don't play for placement rewards at all.  In PvP, I do the "join in the last 2hrs, and play 10-12 battles to get to 575 and quit.  Don't shield, don't care."  For PvE, I do each node 6 times to get the Shield Clearance Level points (Except on Sundays, when I usually don't get to play).  That usually gets me to the final progression reward.  Depending on the event, that can put me anywhere from top 50 to top 200 in progression.  My issue there is that this is supposed to be PvE.  Why are there placement rewards at all?  Why does it have to be against other players?  We have PvP for that.  As I said earlier, the most enjoyable events are the ones without placement rewards.  My Alliance has never finished an alliance event.  My friends don't have the rosters (nor the time, since almost every one of us works at a bar and/or restaurant) to play them fully, but we enjoy the tinykitty out of those events way more.

After reading your response about the "D3 Tactics" I think that puts my ire into a slightly different frame.  I now think the anger over the SHIELD Training events comes from 2 different yet more definable places:

1. The bait-and-switch of the event.  The first 2 events (Kingpin/GhostRider and I forget the second) were WAAAAY different.  You only needed the required character for the final node to get the 4* cover reward and it didn't matter what level or covers you had.  The rest of the event could be done with any roster, assuming you could beat the ever increasing difficulty on the nodes.  Now, it's a glorified paywall that the vast majority of the player base cannot reach.

2. This is the first iteration (Rogue and NightCrawler) of new cards being debuted this way.  Previously, it's been a normal PvE event that anyone could get at least 1 cover via progression (if they kept a large and diverse roster) and placement rewards were expanded so more people had a shot at it.  Just having the required character was enough to let you attempt the nodes and get the points.  That is no longer the case.  Having the character no longer matters.  One needs to have the character AND have a lot of the character.

Looking at the issue this way, I think an even more simple solution (assuming they are hell-bent on keeping the level restrictions) would be to delay the Shield Training until after the PvE event that debuts the new character, rather than putting it before or concurrent to.  it wouldn't solve all the problems people have, but it would mitigate a bunch of the complaints without changing any game play mechanics of the event.

As a last bit, I am attempting to be civil in the discussion.  If it ever comes across like I am not, i apologize.  I'm not well known for my eloquence nor is writing in a forum the best way to convey the emotion and feeling behind words.  If I come across aggressive or inflammatory, please know that is not my intent.

Killians8

abmoraz said: 

Depending on the event, that can put me anywhere from top 50 to top 200 in progression.  My issue there is that this is supposed to be PvE.  Why are there placement rewards at all?  Why does it have to be against other players?  We have PvP for that.

**I agree with that. Why placement in PvE and they could simply do better offering toons for lower ranks, but that still wouldn't change your overall theory as someone would always be out of that spot or in it.

abmoraz said: The first 2 events (Kingpin/GhostRider and I forget the second) were WAAAAY different.

** I wasn't sure if you were saying you liked these or not. I love those because of course I'm not restricted nearly as much and it's almost a free cover as long as you have the toon at all and a roster that can beat those nodes (which I feel is okay because it's based somewhat on roster progress which is congruent with most of the game.

I'm looking forward to another Psylocke and Nick Fury (needed) when they roll out System Reboot.

abmoraz said:

This is the first iteration (Rogue and NightCrawler) of new cards being debuted this way.  Previously, it's been a normal PvE event that anyone could get at least 1 cover via progression (if they kept a large and diverse roster) and placement rewards were expanded so more people had a shot at it.  Just having the required character was enough to let you attempt the nodes and get the points.  That is no longer the case.  Having the character no longer matters.  One needs to have the character AND have a lot of the character.

** Now I'm wondering if you're confusing the two different events: System Reboot and Shield Training. The former is like the previous Kingpin and Ghost Rider.

There is no difference in being able to obtain Rogue or Nightcrawler from regular T100 placement in their new character event or through progression in the following essential PvE. That has not changed for these two. Our inability to get an additional cover for each is locked away, but to me it's an extra above the already unchanged normal one. It's possible I'm misunderstanding you.

abmoraz said:

As a last bit, I am attempting to be civil in the discussion.  If it ever comes across like I am not, i apologize.  I'm not well known for my eloquence nor is writing in a forum the best way to convey the emotion and feeling behind words.  If I come across aggressive or inflammatory, please know that is not my intent.

**I've learned to not take things personal because whatever I think, feel, and do (communication included) are my own, and those things for others do not belong to me. If you did get disrespectful (which I haven't felt), I would attribute that to you, and not me.

abmoraz

Killians8 said:

** Now I'm wondering if you're confusing the two different events: System Reboot and Shield Training. The former is like the previous Kingpin and Ghost Rider.

There is no difference in being able to obtain Rogue or Nightcrawler from regular T100 placement in their new character event or through progression in the following essential PvE. That has not changed for these two. Our inability to get an additional cover for each is locked away, but to me it's an extra above the already unchanged normal one. It's possible I'm misunderstanding you.

(much snipped because I think we've hit a points of agreement or "agree-to-disagree")

You are absolutely correct.  I was conflating the 2 events (System Reboot and SHIELD Training).  Sorry about that.  That was my bad (for the record, I loved the System Reboot events)

As far as the inability to get additional cover (or play the additional content), while you are correct that, when looking at our rosters in isolation, we aren't losing anything.  However we are absolutely losing in comparison to others.  And as long as they keep rewarding us based on our mutual rankings as compared to others (i.e.: placement rewards), it does come out as a net loss for those of us who can't even attempt to finish the event.

To make an analogy: Imagine we are all lined up in a row, is it any different  if only you take one step backward or if everyone else but you takes 1 step forward?   The end result is the same.  In the case of everyone else taking one step forward, you didn't change, yet somehow you are now behind them all.

Though, in this case, it's more like "I'm sorry.  Although you meet the Dress Code to get into this party, your dress clothes aren't expensive enough.  We'll let you look in through the windows at the fun you could be having, but you can't actually party with us.  Next time spend more and we'll let you in."  We're all stuck outside with our invitations, yet still unable to get in while watching others have fun.  Is that Party a requirement?  Absolutely not, but it still hurts not to be included.

Noobeeus

Umm....how do you even get past the first fight?

All the loaners are lvl 86 and the enemies are 100....guess i just have to sit this one out?

Took me 4 tries...

Vhailorx

Noobeeus said:

Umm....how do you even get past the first fight?

All the loaners are lvl 86 and the enemies are 100....guess i just have to sit this one out?

Took me 4 tries...

Mpq is designed for the player to face and defeat opponents of higher level.  86 v 100 is not a big problem.  Try using 375s against 515s.  Aesth suggests the right strategy.  Thing should go down first.

iron-n-wine

I got on an amazing streak with Nightcrawlers Purple, when purple was the colour most on the board, was able to repeat cast it until all enemies were down. A new solo winfinite?

jamesh

Noobeeus said:

Umm....how do you even get past the first fight?

All the loaners are lvl 86 and the enemies are 100....guess i just have to sit this one out?

Took me 4 tries...

I managed that one using the three loaner characters.  If you collect enough AP to fire Nightcrawler's purple and most tiles on the board are purple, you are pretty much guaranteed a win.  You'll likely manage to BAMF your way to victory without ever giving the enemy another turn (since each cast will likely bring in more purple AP than it costs, and leave the board majority purple).

I expect to see this power modified sooner rather than later.

Capmarv86

These events are trash unless you have the required characters and then if you don't have at the appropriate level you can't progress. These pay to play events are getting old. It sucks when you get excited for a new character just to not be able to play because you don't have one character 

Capmarv86

Not sure why they think that we are happy with their changes. All they do is ruin it for the people who don't waste all their money on this game.