Post-vaulting: How are 3x token odds for latest working out for you?

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  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    I really dislike the quirkiness of the quote system on this site.
    Mods feel free to squash this post i goofed.

  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spudgutter said:
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:

    The perfect solution for every player, in my opinion, is several tokens, each with a set number of certain covers, so that you could more easily target who you want.  But i doubt we will ever see that.
    That's still not a perfect solution. Imagine how many complaint threads there would be if someone wanted a specific character and in its token pool were several characters they don't want.

    If you ever collect any kind of trading card it's the same basic premise. Collectors can either buy packs with random chances at what they want, or they can shell out extra money to get specifically what they want. I realize this is not an exact apples to apples example but the general concept is there.

    I didn't mean perfect in the most literal sense, just the best solution to help everyone.  And if they did adjust it that way, and someone complained, i would be in that thread, too.

    The cards is a better example for me, i would think. Every pack has a set of cards that it is drawing from.  If i wanted the best card from 2016, i would not be able to go to the store and buy a pack off the shelf today in the hopes of getting it.  All they are selling today are the current sets.
    Well vaulting was not the perfect solution for my level 271 4* Thor or for 40+ and growing of her friends. Maybe multiple stores would be best. But I vastly prefer what we have now over the vaulting.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:

    Vaulting was an absurdly poor fix to the problem of dillution.

    I clipped almost all of your text because I see this as the crux of the vaulting debate.  

    I believe there is a fairly universal concensus that dillution was a serious problem.  Vaulting, while it did't address that at all in a general sense, did help with a narrow progression to the 4* tier at the expense of ~75% of the available characters.  Whether or not you liked vaulting, the current system only helps with dilution for a very narrow range of characters and leaves the dillution problem for older characters worse than ever.  If you opened a legendary token last year during the Anniversary event, your odds of getting a particular 4* (say, Jean Grey, for argument's sake) were more than twice as good as if you did the same thing today.  Every new 4* character release puts a new 4* in the non-12, which make up a fixed 42.5% of the tokens.  Therefore character dillution is happening at the same rate, but now older characters are half as likely as they used to be in the tokens.  Bonus heroes can help you with this, but that's only good for one character at a time.  3* champ rewards can also help for older 4*'s, but again, that's only three covers and not every older 4* has a 3* feeding it.

    I would agree with you that vaulting was an absurdly poor solution to the general problem of token dillution, however I haven't seen any argument that the current system is a better one, except for a more veteran player who doesn't need as many covers for the older characters the begin with...and thus, may have been better off with vaulting.  For a player just starting the transition into 4*'s...I just don't see how the current tokens are any less disheartening than we saw prior to vaulting.  
  • Thorstienn
    Thorstienn Posts: 34 Just Dropped In
    Personally, I prefer access to all characters, so NOT vaulting. During vaulting I got close to 10 covers for Coulsen and Carol, after I have camped wolvie, Thor, Coulson, profX, Ghost Rider and Riri.

    The real issue in my opinion is not having colourless covers! Carol 10/7/1, C&D 0/0/9, Cyclops 0/2/8 (No rogue for me haha). It's the double rng that is the bigger problem.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    ZootSax said:
    tiomono said:

    Vaulting was an absurdly poor fix to the problem of dillution.

    I clipped almost all of your text because I see this as the crux of the vaulting debate.  

    I believe there is a fairly universal concensus that dillution was a serious problem.  Vaulting, while it did't address that at all in a general sense, did help with a narrow progression to the 4* tier at the expense of ~75% of the available characters.  Whether or not you liked vaulting, the current system only helps with dilution for a very narrow range of characters and leaves the dillution problem for older characters worse than ever.  If you opened a legendary token last year during the Anniversary event, your odds of getting a particular 4* (say, Jean Grey, for argument's sake) were more than twice as good as if you did the same thing today.  Every new 4* character release puts a new 4* in the non-12, which make up a fixed 42.5% of the tokens.  Therefore character dillution is happening at the same rate, but now older characters are half as likely as they used to be in the tokens.  Bonus heroes can help you with this, but that's only good for one character at a time.  3* champ rewards can also help for older 4*'s, but again, that's only three covers and not every older 4* has a 3* feeding it.

    I would agree with you that vaulting was an absurdly poor solution to the general problem of token dillution, however I haven't seen any argument that the current system is a better one, except for a more veteran player who doesn't need as many covers for the older characters the begin with...and thus, may have been better off with vaulting.  For a player just starting the transition into 4*'s...I just don't see how the current tokens are any less disheartening than we saw prior to my current 12 vaulting.  
    They are less disheartening because the most recent 12 have better odds of being drawn, while  not locking away 75% and growing of the characters behind an arbitrary fix to dilution.

    Again I will say the current system is not perfect, but I feel it's better than vaulting and what we had before vaulting.

    But that's not even what this topic is about.

    Personally my current 12 are in decent shape.
     Coulson lvl 284
    C&D lvl 278
    Gamora 3-3-2
    Iron fist lvl 273
    Lockhart 1-0-0
    Mockingbird 1-0-2
    Mordo lvl 282
    Riri lvl 271
    Grocket 4-2-3
    Sandman lvl 273
    Vulture 1-3-2
    Yondu 3-4-1

    I like the current system just fine.
  • ABaker84
    ABaker84 Posts: 90 Match Maker
    "The only way that Hulkbuster, Teen Jean, PX Nick fury, etc become relevant is after they reach 370, their mere presence on your team gives you a 2x iso bonus, or so amazing farming perk."

    Can someone confirm/clarify this? You get 2x ISO when a character reaches 370? 
      
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    I just thought of something else. Who was the first character introduced after vaulting ended? Was it vulture?

    I think it would be good to revisit this topic when the character that was introduced on the change is dropping out of the increased chance.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,501 Chairperson of the Boards
    DStrange4Life said:
    "The only way that Hulkbuster, Teen Jean, PX Nick fury, etc become relevant is after they reach 370, their mere presence on your team gives you a 2x iso bonus, or so amazing farming perk."

    Can someone confirm/clarify this? You get 2x ISO when a character reaches 370? 
      
    No, nothing magical happens when a 4* gets to 370.  That is my point, a 370 Hulkbuster is pretty much garbage when compared to a 370 carol.

    Instead of worrying about champing an older 4*,  focus on max champing the latest 4*.  In almost every head to head comparison, an older 4* loses very badly to an equivalent level latest 4*.

    The only way adding a cover to an older 4* like HB, teen jean, PX, Nick Fury etc adds value is IF and ONLY IF D3 gives us some perk for actually using that char.  Otherwise, you will almost inevitably always use a more recent 4* because of power creep.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,825 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    DStrange4Life said:
    "The only way that Hulkbuster, Teen Jean, PX Nick fury, etc become relevant is after they reach 370, their mere presence on your team gives you a 2x iso bonus, or so amazing farming perk."

    Can someone confirm/clarify this? You get 2x ISO when a character reaches 370? 
      
    No, nothing magical happens when a 4* gets to 370.  That is my point, a 370 Hulkbuster is pretty much garbage when compared to a 370 carol.

    Instead of worrying about champing an older 4*,  focus on max champing the latest 4*.  In almost every head to head comparison, an older 4* loses very badly to an equivalent level latest 4*.

    The only way adding a cover to an older 4* like HB, teen jean, PX, Nick Fury etc adds value is IF and ONLY IF D3 gives us some perk for actually using that char.  Otherwise, you will almost inevitably always use a more recent 4* because of power creep.
    There was a boost week a few months ago where the 4's were Blade and 4 others. I had all but Blade champed (I think Kingpin, Winter Soldier, Spider Woman, and Sam Wilson).  Unsurprisingly, my teams were torn up by anyone with a champed Blade.  I realize Blade is a top 10 4*, but it supports the point that power creep and new mechanics have made many vintage 4's far less useful in comparison to new ones (although PVE can support their use more often).
  • BigMike182
    BigMike182 Posts: 60 Match Maker
    The question about War Machine (who I have champed but almost never use) made me realize that the best solution to repetitive gameplay and devalued veteran characters is to buff older characters on a regular basis. If they can fix Mordo, Invisible Woman, Carnage, and other underwhelming 4*s, they can fix anything. We'd see more teams made up of different opponents and the need to get the latest 4* champed ASAP might diminish (beyond gotta-catch-'em-all-ism).

    I have 10 fully covered 4*s waiting to be champed (Cyclops, PX, Kingpin, Vulture, Miles, Chulk, Yondu, Quake, Drax, & Moon Knight). Some of these characters are very useful and some aren't. Obviously, I'd love to champ them all, not to mention the 4*s w/ < 13 covers (especially Peggy). The current meta makes Vulture the best candidate, but Moon Knight is way more fun and I'd like to see how effective Quake's passive would be against some recent 4*s.

    I have a lot of toys in this game and I want to play with them! 


  • shardwick
    shardwick Posts: 2,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    Seems like the only people I draw anymore are Riri and Mordo. Custom 12 pack would help most people. Focus on 6-12 of your favorites, then swap them out whenever you want. Easy solution.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,291 Chairperson of the Boards
    BigMike182 said:
    The question about War Machine (who I have champed but almost never use) made me realize that the best solution to repetitive gameplay and devalued veteran characters is to buff older characters on a regular basis. If they can fix Mordo, Invisible Woman, Carnage, and other underwhelming 4*s, they can fix anything. We'd see more teams made up of different opponents and the need to get the latest 4* champed ASAP might diminish (beyond gotta-catch-'em-all-ism).

    I have 10 fully covered 4*s waiting to be champed (Cyclops, PX, Kingpin, Vulture, Miles, Chulk, Yondu, Quake, Drax, & Moon Knight). Some of these characters are very useful and some aren't. Obviously, I'd love to champ them all, not to mention the 4*s w/ < 13 covers (especially Peggy). The current meta makes Vulture the best candidate, but Moon Knight is way more fun and I'd like to see how effective Quake's passive would be against some recent 4*s.

    I have a lot of toys in this game and I want to play with them! 


    Yeah - this is what I was getting at. A bunch of the older characters ARE great fun (I really like Moon Knight and will definitely pursue champing him) but we hardly ever see them. If I DID see a War Machine and he wasn't like 50 levels above my roster I would be happy to fight against him to see what it was like. I have plenty of experience battling Medusa/C4rol/Etc and when they boost R&G and Gamora in the same week, Lol! Anyway, carry on MPQing!
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,501 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    Yeah - this is what I was getting at. A bunch of the older characters ARE great fun (I really like Moon Knight and will definitely pursue champing him) but we hardly ever see them. If I DID see a War Machine and he wasn't like 50 levels above my roster I would be happy to fight against him to see what it was like. I have plenty of experience battling Medusa/C4rol/Etc and when they boost R&G and Gamora in the same week, Lol! Anyway, carry on MPQing!
    War machine's real value is his blue vs IW and invisibilty users.  Otherwise he can be complicated to get rolling.  His powers hit for a decent amount,  but in the age of Boosted 4* over 400,  Whats a 10k nuke vs a 40k carol bomb?

    I'll don't think you'll ever see him be common in an event unless HTD or IW are boosted and generating multiple invis tiles.

    Even in battles against single invisiblity tiles,  its just faster and easier to target that char first.
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    This issue has little to do with token rates. It isn't really just vaulting's fault either. Its just how the defense is set. You're going to see a good team on defense, it just happens that the best defensive 4*s (Carol, Medusa, Blade etc) were easily available because of vaulting. Even if I used War Machine to win a few matches (and he pairs great with Carol) I would switch him out to leave on defense. I use tons of different teams in Sim, but when I get close to 2000 I only see the standard teams, and that what I have to use too.
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    This new system really punishes unbalanced RNG and I have to say I'm not a fan at all. Under the previous system if I had an unbalanced character (say, 2/3/5) and pulled a 6th of a color, I could set that character as bonus and pull enough tokens that I could still probably champion that character before I had to waste that cover. Now it's just hopeless. My Yondu sits at 3/1/5 and I've sold 2 or 3 blue. Vulture is 2/3/5 and I've sold at least 3 blues already as well. Lockjaw might work out at 3/2/4, but might not. I've gotten lucky only with Mockingbird, who is 4/3/4. 

    Just by virtue of the fact that I have all of these not even close to cover maxed shows how much they've slowed the cover acquisition for the new characters. That part is frustrating too, since even just barely champed 4s aren't going to help me much unless they are somehow game-warping (like maybe vulture? or rogue?). So even when I finally do pull enough to champion them, it's going to take forever to get them up to the 300+ range where they might, just might start to be good enough alongside my higher champed 4s and 5s. Really you need them 330+, but I just don't see that happening under this system anymore. 

    Tl;dr - My progress has slowed A LOT, and I'm no longer excited by the 4* game at all, and have gone back to everything being about the 5s...It's sad
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,967 Chairperson of the Boards
    For me my highest 4s are Carol 295, Riri 285, Blade 282, Falcon 283, X-23 278, Wolverine 278.  Then I have 4 at 277.  Not too far from my lowest at 271. I hated the vastly uneven builds that vaulting provided and hated how it leveled a few characters so high it locked you into using them. I feel fortunate that I can use pretty much any combo of my 33 4*.  I actively fought against uber leveling characters and would pull less until people left tokens because I didn’t want scaling to change based on a few super high champs (even if they’re elite tier).  I can top 5 CL8 PVE and can get to 900 with regularity and rarely see 5* teams (usually two boosted 4s plus featured).  So I’m pretty happy.
  • Ruinate
    Ruinate Posts: 528 Critical Contributor
    edited October 2017

    Well, looking at the responses in this thread, it seems that with 3x odds most people are fully covering the Latest with plenty of time to spare before characters leave the Latest pool.  So, pretty much the same general progress as vaulting.  What makes it better is that while we work toward max-covering our Latest, we still have access to older characters as well


    For some people simply champing a character is enough.  For others it is only the beginning.  A character with only 13/113 covers is nowhere near being finished.  So no, it is not the same general progress as vaulting.  It's not "pretty much the same"  It's not even close.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,967 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    I have 33 4* champs and only one over 285.  I feel that with my widely built roster I can compete better than if I had a handful of elite level characters in the mid 300s.  Why? Because I usually have 2-3 characters boosted and can rely on those different characters each week to hit 900 PVP/top5 PVE and continue to grow my roster.  I would say with my roster despite no 300 level toons, I have officially “transitioned”.

    Vaulting was all about helping people transition to the 4* tier. With this current system you can still do that just fine.  My 3s are pretty much unusable so I’d say I transitioned. 

    What you are talking about is what I believe was the unintended side effect of vaulting which was almost skipping the 4* transition and propelling people into 5* MMR/Scaling. By having 3-6 nearly max-Champed 4s you can see and probably beat low level Champed 5*.

    TLDR: You can absolutely use this new system to transition to 4* land but cannot leap into 5* land like you could under vaulting. We can argue which is better for the health of the game all day. I know for me if I’d of splurged on tokens during vaulting (as many did) and kept having to use the same 4 characters and kept having to slog through 5* teams I’d be much less happy.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    Ruinate said:

    For some people simply champing a character is enough.  For others it is only the beginning.  A character with only 13/130 covers is nowhere near being finished.  So no, it is not the same general progress as vaulting.  It's not "pretty much the same"  It's not even close.
    Sure but there's a trade off.  During vaulting it was level the tinykitty out of the 12 while they are there and then put them in cold storage to rarely get any more ever again (that's assuming you aren't vaulting in which case you champed them and only got a few extra levels).

    Now you can champ them pretty easily and after they drop your still going to to get levels from them periodically, so they will still grow, just not as fast.

    I prefer this method to the vaulting, but I still think it makes more sense to have Latest (or a new CP vault) have vaulting applied and Classics have what we have now.  That way people that prefer the vaulted approach have that choice, people who don't also have a choice.  Choice is power!

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