Post-vaulting: How are 3x token odds for latest working out for you?

Dotproduct

I think something is wrong with the draw rates. I pulled a Coulson that I couldn't use for my 12 cover Coulson. So I had the full 14 days to champ him (already had the ISO so that's wasn't the problem). I managed to get enough CP to do 12 pulls and of those I got 4 5*, 7 4* classics and 1 4* latest. So I had to sell the Coulson. 

Daredevil217

Did you check the HFH store? Usually if you pull an unusable 13th, they’ll put a cover you can use up in the store.  Happened very recently to me where I pulled an uniseable bonus cover for Vulture. He was in the HFH store but I ended up pulling a useable cover for him with my Mes Ami token. 

Starfury

TetsujinOni said:

The unvaulting is garbage.

23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?

The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.

The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.

Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.

So you're for removing the the older half of 4* characters from the game.

Because if you're no longer offering giving out any covers, there's no point in keeping them around.

LordRayne

Riri - champed
Mordo - Fully Covered (Hate him with a passion, might never champ him. Have had excessive covers which I level and sell for 4k many times)
Coulson - Champed
Hobofist - Champed
C&D - Champed
R&G - Champed
G4mora - Champed
Sandman - Champed
Vulture - Champed
Mockingbird - 13 covers for a while now, plan on champing once I get the ISO
Yondu - Fully Covered. 13 covers for a while, also plan on champing.
Lockjaw - Nearly fully covered, plan on champing
Rogue - Champed. Got superlucky with placement and vault rewards here. Champed her at the end of her release event.

Variety is the spice of life. I enjoy all characters being in the vaults, but ISO is the severe limiting factor here. All in all, I have a queue of 7-8 four stars ready to be champed. It's hard to both maintain a two-star farm, and also having more and more 3-stars reaching 266, with rerostering and re-champing. My dupe 3Cap is already at 13 covers, but can't spare the ISO yet.

bluewolf

Starfury said:

TetsujinOni said:

The unvaulting is garbage.

23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?

The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.

The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.

Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.

So you're for removing the the older half of 4* characters from the game.

Because if you're no longer offering giving out any covers, there's no point in keeping them around.

There are many older characters that are borderline useless in the current meta. Yes, for pete's sake.  Retire some.  But they can't.  Then we would have....extra roster slots.  (Dev sad face here.). And they can never officially acknowledge that there are bad characters.  (I am sympathetic that someone spent hours of their lives developing said characters, but there are roster slot suckers that just can't be saved in the new meta.)

DAZ0273

I found it noticeable in the slice I played in the Let's Be Frank PvP how many teams had champed latest 4* but were using loaner Max Pun's, way too many for it to be a tactic. It seems vaulting impacted 4* from a certain period more than others, since vaulting stopped I have champed X23 and have Nick Fury and Venom fully covered but unchamped. However now the tap is back on for characters from last year and I have also been able to acquire Moon Knight and Bucky covers to start bringing them up which is nice. So I like it. I think if the pace was left as fast as it was then it would have been a problem in the end but it achieved what it set out to do.

tiomono

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

But he is hitting 575 2 times a week with undercovered 4 stars right now. And just drew a cover for one of the 12 with higher draw rates. So it's still giving good progress while not locking away the vast majority of the characters in the 4 star tier. To me that sounds better than how vaulting was.

 Is the current system the perfect solution for every player? Nope, but I feel it's more beneficial to a wider range of players than the vaulting system was.

To be fair, he pulled the c&d from the anniversary vault, but the point still stands. In order to pull the other two covers from a classic token, he has a 1 in 54 chance, twice.  Thats 108 pulls. If it were during vaulting, 1 in 12, twice.  24. That is a huge difference!  I get that they are "3x" more likely, but the dilution is still there.  

The perfect solution for every player, in my opinion, is several tokens, each with a set number of certain covers, so that you could more easily target who you want.  But i doubt we will ever see that.

That's still not a perfect solution. Imagine how many complaint threads there would be if someone wanted a specific character and in its token pool were several characters they don't want.

There is no "perfect" solution. What we have right now is a decent middle ground between player "wants" and developer "needs". Players "want" everything handed to them perfectly with no waste.  Devs "need" to make money, rng is one way to help them do that.

If you ever collect any kind of trading card it's the same basic premise. Collectors can either buy packs with random chances at what they want, or they can shell out extra money to get specifically what they want. I realize this is not an exact apples to apples example but the general concept is there.

This game is given to you free. If you want a free game to continue providing new content and balance changes, you have to accept that there will be some form of a "money grab" by the developers. If they don't do that the game shuts down sooner rather than later. It's absolutely frustrating for the consumer, but if they do not do it there is no product for the consumer.

Tldr:
When you need to make money the old adage of "the customer is always right" just does not hold up. Customer wants and demands are too varied and sometimes too unreasonable, to make everyone happy.

Starfury

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

But he is hitting 575 2 times a week with undercovered 4 stars right now. And just drew a cover for one of the 12 with higher draw rates. So it's still giving good progress while not locking away the vast majority of the characters in the 4 star tier. To me that sounds better than how vaulting was.

 Is the current system the perfect solution for every player? Nope, but I feel it's more beneficial to a wider range of players than the vaulting system was.

To be fair, he pulled the c&d from the anniversary vault, but the point still stands. In order to pull the other two covers from a classic token, he has a 1 in 54 chance, twice.  Thats 108 pulls. If it were during vaulting, 1 in 12, twice.  24. That is a huge difference!  I get that they are "3x" more likely, but the dilution is still there.  

The perfect solution for every player, in my opinion, is several tokens, each with a set number of certain covers, so that you could more easily target who you want.  But i doubt we will ever see that.

That's just plain wrong:

During Vaulting: 85% for a 4* -> 100% chance for the latest (or only) 12 -> 1/12 chance of it being the one you want

Now: 85% for a 4* -> 50% chance for the latest 12 -> 1/12 chance of it being the one you want.

The probability for the latest 12 has been halved from 7.08% to 3.54%. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, there's no dilution for the latest 12. You have a 3.54% chance now, you'll have a 3.54% chance next year when there's 20 more 4*.

Starfury

bluewolf said:

Starfury said:

TetsujinOni said:

The unvaulting is garbage.

23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?

The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.

The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.

Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.

So you're for removing the the older half of 4* characters from the game.

Because if you're no longer offering giving out any covers, there's no point in keeping them around.

There are many older characters that are borderline useless in the current meta. Yes, for pete's sake.  Retire some.  But they can't.  Then we would have....extra roster slots.  (Dev sad face here.). And they can never officially acknowledge that there are bad characters.  (I am sympathetic that someone spent hours of their lives developing said characters, but there are roster slot suckers that just can't be saved in the new meta.)

Why just some? If there's no more covers for a character, he doesn't have a place in the game anymore.

Borstock

bluewolf said:

There are many older characters that are borderline useless in the current meta. Yes, for pete's sake.  Retire some.  But they can't.  Then we would have....extra roster slots.  (Dev sad face here.). And they can never officially acknowledge that there are bad characters.  (I am sympathetic that someone spent hours of their lives developing said characters, but there are roster slot suckers that just can't be saved in the new meta.)

Which ones are you considering "useless"?

bluewolf

First, no character is never used by the devs.  The boosted list includes everyone, and unless they retire someone, having everyone rostered benefits you in PVE (although you can possibly skip some 4's if you can get all 5's and only want progression.)

I have almost all 4's champed (just Yondu, Rogue,Lockjaw, and Howard are left).  Here are some that aren't much use:  War Machine. Nick Fury. Elektra. Winter Soldier.  Sam Wilson. Kingpin.  Miles.  Anyone that is not very speed oriented is not very helpful now.  The game has shifted so much into fast matches and high damage almost immediately.  Heavily CD dependent characters or ones that still require lots of AP collection are so far behind the meta.  It's OK to mix CD/AP collection with a faster element.

Obviously, some of these characters have a niche and are favorites of someone, but we know they are going to release another character in a week.  Then another in two weeks.  Then another. Dilution. Just. Keeps. Getting. Worse.

Starfury

aesthetocyst said:

Starfury said:So you're for removing the the older half of 4* characters from the game.

Because if you're no longer offering giving out any covers, there's no point in keeping them around.

Don't be ridiculous. He didn't say that at all. Covers come from many sources, not just tokens.

I was just following his argument to the logical conclusion. If you don't want your LT pulls wasted on old characters, why would you want your vault pulls and champ rewards be wasted on them?

Under vaulting, progress on characters outside the latest 12 slowed down to such an extent that every vaulted cover you got was a lost unvaulted cover.

Jarvind

Riri Williams (Champed)

Mordo (Champed)

Agent Coulson (Champed)

Iron Fist (Champed)

Cloak & Dagger (Champed)

Rocket & Groot (Champed)

Gamora (Champed)

Sandman (5/3/4)

Vulture (1/2/5)

Mockingbird (2/1/4)

Yondu (1/3/2)

Lockjaw (1/2/1)

Rogue (3/3/3)

Sandman and Vulture would probably both be champed by now, except that I've probably thrown away their green and blue, respectively, about 6 times each. And I currently have 2 Sandman greens rotting with 7 days left. C'mon big money.

Additionally, I haven't opened any Latest Legend tokens in ages - I'm sitting on 151 of them. I imagine if I hadn't done that, I'd have more of them champed. I was hoarding CP as well, but I spent what I had (1500 or so) on the favorably-bugged odds on Mes Amis tokens.

Overall, I'd say the new system works decently - certainly better than I expected it to.

Spudgutter

tiomono said:

Spudgutter said:

The perfect solution for every player, in my opinion, is several tokens, each with a set number of certain covers, so that you could more easily target who you want.  But i doubt we will ever see that.

That's still not a perfect solution. Imagine how many complaint threads there would be if someone wanted a specific character and in its token pool were several characters they don't want.

If you ever collect any kind of trading card it's the same basic premise. Collectors can either buy packs with random chances at what they want, or they can shell out extra money to get specifically what they want. I realize this is not an exact apples to apples example but the general concept is there.

I didn't mean perfect in the most literal sense, just the best solution to help everyone.  And if they did adjust it that way, and someone complained, i would be in that thread, too.

The cards is a better example for me, i would think. Every pack has a set of cards that it is drawing from.  If i wanted the best card from 2016, i would not be able to go to the store and buy a pack off the shelf today in the hopes of getting it.  All they are selling today are the current sets.

Spudgutter

Starfury said:

Spudgutter said:

tiomono said:

But he is hitting 575 2 times a week with undercovered 4 stars right now. And just drew a cover for one of the 12 with higher draw rates. So it's still giving good progress while not locking away the vast majority of the characters in the 4 star tier. To me that sounds better than how vaulting was.

 Is the current system the perfect solution for every player? Nope, but I feel it's more beneficial to a wider range of players than the vaulting system was.

To be fair, he pulled the c&d from the anniversary vault, but the point still stands. In order to pull the other two covers from a classic token, he has a 1 in 54 chance, twice.  Thats 108 pulls. If it were during vaulting, 1 in 12, twice.  24. That is a huge difference!  I get that they are "3x" more likely, but the dilution is still there.  

The perfect solution for every player, in my opinion, is several tokens, each with a set number of certain covers, so that you could more easily target who you want.  But i doubt we will ever see that.

That's just plain wrong:

During Vaulting: 85% for a 4* -> 100% chance for the latest (or only) 12 -> 1/12 chance of it being the one you want

Now: 85% for a 4* -> 50% chance for the latest 12 -> 1/12 chance of it being the one you want.

The probability for the latest 12 has been halved from 7.08% to 3.54%. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, there's no dilution for the latest 12. You have a 3.54% chance now, you'll have a 3.54% chance next year when there's 20 more 4*.

It isn't wrong, just a real world example.

Break it down to just a percentage, sure, it looks ok on paper. Lets say vaulting were in place, and c&d were one of the 12.  He miraculously saves up for 100 pulls.  While there is a small chance to pull zero, in all likelihood, he would get several covers for them.  With the current model, even with the "3x" chance, there is a probability that he won't pull any.  Like it or not, that is a fact.

Phumade

I personally wouldn't mind permanently retiring old chars.  Maybe create a Hall of Fame trophy function where after 3 years,  their PVP events and eligibility for essentials is fully retired.  They can become the 4* version of Elena or Bagman where we wax poetically about how awesome they used to be and or make up new objectives for them.

Personally any 4* older than Iceman is pretty much garbage tier unless they are max champed and boosted.

They've had a great run and were a solid foundation to build a 5* tier, but now anyone who's chasing any of the 1st 20 4* chars just to get to 13 covers  is just wasting their time and energy unless they are looking for baking ingredients.

The 4* meta is about building to max champs that can work with and supplement your 5* tier.  Anything else is basically a farming side quest.

The only way that Hulkbuster, Teen Jean, PX Nick fury, etc become relevant is after they reach 370, their mere presence on your team gives you a 2x iso bonus, or so amazing farming perk.
  

Spudgutter

bluewolf said:

First, no character is never used by the devs.  The boosted list includes everyone, and unless they retire someone, having everyone rostered benefits you in PVE (although you can possibly skip some 4's if you can get all 5's and only want progression.)

I have almost all 4's champed (just Yondu, Rogue,Lockjaw, and Howard are left).  Here are some that aren't much use:  War Machine. Nick Fury. Elektra. Winter Soldier.  Sam Wilson. Kingpin.  Miles.  Anyone that is not very speed oriented is not very helpful now.  The game has shifted so much into fast matches and high damage almost immediately.  Heavily CD dependent characters or ones that still require lots of AP collection are so far behind the meta.  It's OK to mix CD/AP collection with a faster element.

Obviously, some of these characters have a niche and are favorites of someone, but we know they are going to release another character in a week.  Then another in two weeks.  Then another. Dilution. Just. Keeps. Getting. Worse.

I would almost love to see a week with no boosted list.  Even better would be if they would release the stats on player usage put beside average days played.  That way you would see, that even the vets that have been around forever and have everyone, use the newer characters more.  

DAZ0273

Spudgutter said:

bluewolf said:

First, no character is never used by the devs.  The boosted list includes everyone, and unless they retire someone, having everyone rostered benefits you in PVE (although you can possibly skip some 4's if you can get all 5's and only want progression.)

I have almost all 4's champed (just Yondu, Rogue,Lockjaw, and Howard are left).  Here are some that aren't much use:  War Machine. Nick Fury. Elektra. Winter Soldier.  Sam Wilson. Kingpin.  Miles.  Anyone that is not very speed oriented is not very helpful now.  The game has shifted so much into fast matches and high damage almost immediately.  Heavily CD dependent characters or ones that still require lots of AP collection are so far behind the meta.  It's OK to mix CD/AP collection with a faster element.

Obviously, some of these characters have a niche and are favorites of someone, but we know they are going to release another character in a week.  Then another in two weeks.  Then another. Dilution. Just. Keeps. Getting. Worse.

I would almost love to see a week with no boosted list.  Even better would be if they would release the stats on player usage put beside average days played.  That way you would see, that even the vets that have been around forever and have everyone, use the newer characters more.  

I don't think I have ever come across War Machine in an enemy team. Surely somebody has him champed?!?!?

Spudgutter

DAZ0273 said:

Spudgutter said:

bluewolf said:

First, no character is never used by the devs.  The boosted list includes everyone, and unless they retire someone, having everyone rostered benefits you in PVE (although you can possibly skip some 4's if you can get all 5's and only want progression.)

I have almost all 4's champed (just Yondu, Rogue,Lockjaw, and Howard are left).  Here are some that aren't much use:  War Machine. Nick Fury. Elektra. Winter Soldier.  Sam Wilson. Kingpin.  Miles.  Anyone that is not very speed oriented is not very helpful now.  The game has shifted so much into fast matches and high damage almost immediately.  Heavily CD dependent characters or ones that still require lots of AP collection are so far behind the meta.  It's OK to mix CD/AP collection with a faster element.

Obviously, some of these characters have a niche and are favorites of someone, but we know they are going to release another character in a week.  Then another in two weeks.  Then another. Dilution. Just. Keeps. Getting. Worse.

I would almost love to see a week with no boosted list.  Even better would be if they would release the stats on player usage put beside average days played.  That way you would see, that even the vets that have been around forever and have everyone, use the newer characters more.  

I don't think I have ever come across War Machine in an enemy team. Surely somebody has him champed?!?!?

In all fairness, i have him champed, and used him when he is boosted.  Sometimes the list has too much color overlap, and so you might use someone to help conplete a rainbow. His red at max covers and boosted is pretty good, just takes a minute to get out there.   Same goes for winter soldier. Little expensive, but boosted he is surprisingly dangerous 

Phumade

DAZ0273 said:

I don't think I have ever come across War Machine in an enemy team. Surely somebody has him champed?!?!?

Funny you mention that.  5* rosters use a champed war machine to bake grills.  If you ever see a champed 5*, baby champed 4* war machine, loaner feature.  Then you know exactly how antique 4* are now used in the current meta.