TetsujinOni said: The unvaulting is garbage.23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.
Daredevil217 said: TetsujinOni said: The unvaulting is garbage.23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system. I strongly disagree. You don’t want those 23 characters so no one should be able to have access to them? That is a very me-centric approach to the game. I can’t imagine coming into the game today and being told with a straight face that the unreliable bonus heroes would be my only means of covering Peggy, Carol, Medusa, Blade, Red Hulk, Bobby, etc. and transitioning to the 4* tier.Understand that hoarding and making sure you have the means to champ someone before pulling more tokens can help mitigate waste.Accept that that even if you do this, cover waste will still happen from time to time and it is not the end of the world. By the way, you don’t HAVE to champ everyone. I always planned to so for me I see all characters as viable, but if you don’t view someone as necessary for your progress you could just sell their covers and use the iso on those you value. I’m sure there are sleepers in the latest just like there are mega giants (listed above) in classics. This discrepancy is there with or without vaulting. Locking away 80% of the tier to minimize an unusable cover was a silly solution and I’m glad it’s done.
TetsujinOni said: The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.
Spudgutter said: Daredevil217 said: TetsujinOni said: The unvaulting is garbage.23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system. I strongly disagree. You don’t want those 23 characters so no one should be able to have access to them? That is a very me-centric approach to the game. I can’t imagine coming into the game today and being told with a straight face that the unreliable bonus heroes would be my only means of covering Peggy, Carol, Medusa, Blade, Red Hulk, Bobby, etc. and transitioning to the 4* tier.Understand that hoarding and making sure you have the means to champ someone before pulling more tokens can help mitigate waste.Accept that that even if you do this, cover waste will still happen from time to time and it is not the end of the world. By the way, you don’t HAVE to champ everyone. I always planned to so for me I see all characters as viable, but if you don’t view someone as necessary for your progress you could just sell their covers and use the iso on those you value. I’m sure there are sleepers in the latest just like there are mega giants (listed above) in classics. This discrepancy is there with or without vaulting. Locking away 80% of the tier to minimize an unusable cover was a silly solution and I’m glad it’s done. And i strongly disagree with you. Instead of coming at it with the "Vaulting is bad. Grrr" mentality, put aside your confirmation bias, and run the numbers. Use 50 for your 4* count (i know there are more, but i want a nice round number. For a new player, that is 50 roster slots and 650 pulls to get to 13/13. Or, during vaulting, 12 roster slots and 156 pulls. Yes, getting older covers from vaulting was way less than ideal, but my kid is at 200 days, and you know who he uses to get to 575 in pvp? 6 cover Bl4de(with no red) and 5 cover medusa and a couple others, and a couple 1 cover 5*. He sure isnt doing that with a 1 cover mordo, 1 cover Mr.f, 2 cover sandman, 1 cover Miles, 2 cover elektra, 1 cover falcap, 1 cover kingpin, etc. So by using the higher covered and higher powered newer characters, he earns more cp, which gets him more pulls, and he was on a good pace to champ a 4* in less than a year. Now, he has a stable roster of 1 cover 4* that collect dust (if he can afford to roster them) because they are sub par, or just plain useless. He picked up a black cover for C&D from the anniversary 10 pack today. How useful do you honestly think that is?Also, to use your own example back at you: you want all those useless covers, so everyone should be forced to pull from the same diluted pool? What a very me-centric approach to the game. TetsujinOni said: The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus. This is the crux if it, and i left off the iso part. Over time, vaulting helps more than it hurts. Let's throw iso in the mix for giggles. Again, using round numbers for simplicity, to champ a 4* costs 375000 iso. For 50, that is 18.75 million. For 12 that number is 4.5 million. And remember, this is on top of trying to max and champ 2* and 3* to stay competitive and not waste anything.TL:DRWe complained and compmained that it took forever to champ new characters, so they implemented something to help with that. People just complained still, so they took it away.
tiomono said: Spudgutter said: Daredevil217 said: TetsujinOni said: The unvaulting is garbage.23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system. I strongly disagree. You don’t want those 23 characters so no one should be able to have access to them? That is a very me-centric approach to the game. I can’t imagine coming into the game today and being told with a straight face that the unreliable bonus heroes would be my only means of covering Peggy, Carol, Medusa, Blade, Red Hulk, Bobby, etc. and transitioning to the 4* tier.Understand that hoarding and making sure you have the means to champ someone before pulling more tokens can help mitigate waste.Accept that that even if you do this, cover waste will still happen from time to time and it is not the end of the world. By the way, you don’t HAVE to champ everyone. I always planned to so for me I see all characters as viable, but if you don’t view someone as necessary for your progress you could just sell their covers and use the iso on those you value. I’m sure there are sleepers in the latest just like there are mega giants (listed above) in classics. This discrepancy is there with or without vaulting. Locking away 80% of the tier to minimize an unusable cover was a silly solution and I’m glad it’s done. And i strongly disagree with you. Instead of coming at it with the "Vaulting is bad. Grrr" mentality, put aside your confirmation bias, and run the numbers. Use 50 for your 4* count (i know there are more, but i want a nice round number. For a new player, that is 50 roster slots and 650 pulls to get to 13/13. Or, during vaulting, 12 roster slots and 156 pulls. Yes, getting older covers from vaulting was way less than ideal, but my kid is at 200 days, and you know who he uses to get to 575 in pvp? 6 cover Bl4de(with no red) and 5 cover medusa and a couple others, and a couple 1 cover 5*. He sure isnt doing that with a 1 cover mordo, 1 cover Mr.f, 2 cover sandman, 1 cover Miles, 2 cover elektra, 1 cover falcap, 1 cover kingpin, etc. So by using the higher covered and higher powered newer characters, he earns more cp, which gets him more pulls, and he was on a good pace to champ a 4* in less than a year. Now, he has a stable roster of 1 cover 4* that collect dust (if he can afford to roster them) because they are sub par, or just plain useless. He picked up a black cover for C&D from the anniversary 10 pack today. How useful do you honestly think that is?Also, to use your own example back at you: you want all those useless covers, so everyone should be forced to pull from the same diluted pool? What a very me-centric approach to the game. TetsujinOni said: The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus. This is the crux if it, and i left off the iso part. Over time, vaulting helps more than it hurts. Let's throw iso in the mix for giggles. Again, using round numbers for simplicity, to champ a 4* costs 375000 iso. For 50, that is 18.75 million. For 12 that number is 4.5 million. And remember, this is on top of trying to max and champ 2* and 3* to stay competitive and not waste anything.TL:DRWe complained and compmained that it took forever to champ new characters, so they implemented something to help with that. People just complained still, so they took it away. For me I could see benefits of vaulting. Those newest 12 characters got a fast track to champ status. But the downsides were more frustrating and unsatisfying than the benefits.Carol is my highest leveled champ at 286. My first ever champed 4 Thor sits at 272. That for me was the frustration. Working hard to get characters champed and looking forward to adding champ levels and see them get stronger, only to have them relegated to almost exclusively a bonus hero perk. But bonus hero for 4's is really poor if you set more than 1.Vaulting was an absurdly poor fix to the problem of dillution.And that "useless" 1 cover cloak and dagger that your kid pulled is called progress. If they can roster it they would have access to playing essential nodes featuring that character. Deadpool daily burrito just became an option as well. If cloak and dagger were vaulted your child would be at the mercy of the bonus hero system to get them. Or they would be denied a chance of competing at higher levels because of lack of roster diversity. Now times that by 45. That's how many characters would be vaulted right now.Vaulting was a horribly flawed system for new players. Whether or not the math us on your side, it made progress for 47 characters feel impossible.
I reduced my dedication to the game when vintage 4*'s were added back into tokens. In turn, that meant that I've slowed the rate at which I am able to champ characters.
From the latest pool, I had Coulson, Mordo and Gamora on 13 covers when vaulting was rolled back. I have since champed Coulson and Mordo, but Gamora is still waiting for a 14th cover to arrive. I did also champ Fury at the start of the Anniversary, but he had been sitting at lv 229 for more than a year already anyway. He was just lucky that I had the spare ISO lying around this time.
I'm mostly feeling it around the very latest 4* characters. After Gamora, I have Sandman on 10 covers, Vulture (as BH!) on 8, and everyone else on 4 or less. Whenever I have been lucky enough for my 4* draw to come from the latest 12, it's often been a champ level rather than something towards a new character. At least it's not wasted, I guess.
Personally, I would still prefer to return to vaulting, but I recognise that I'm in that portion of the player base who would get the best value out of it while others would find it restrictive to their roster growth.
tiomono said:But he is hitting 575 2 times a week with undercovered 4 stars right now. And just drew a cover for one of the 12 with higher draw rates. So it's still giving good progress while not locking away the vast majority of the characters in the 4 star tier. To me that sounds better than how vaulting was. Is the current system the perfect solution for every player? Nope, but I feel it's more beneficial to a wider range of players than the vaulting system was.