Post-vaulting: How are 3x token odds for latest working out for you?

Daredevil217
Daredevil217 Posts: 3,967 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
Ding dong, vaulting is dead!

One of the big complaints with it was we would not be able to cover newer characters before they ended up in classics (I.e. the dilluted pool).  I am sitting on a CP stockpile of over 4500 and about 40 Legendary tokens because I get covers faster than I can champ them and even with very limited pulls I am still covering the newer toons at a good rate. Bonus heroes has been very good at giving us a chance to (albeit unreliablly) help with this as well.  Looking at the newest characters they are as follows:

  1. Riri Williams (Champed)
  2. Mordo (Champed)
  3. Agent Coulson (Champed)
  4. Iron Fist (Champed)
  5. Cloak & Dagger (Champed)
  6. Rocket & Groot (Champed)
  7. Gamora (11 Covers)
  8. Sandman (12 Covers)
  9. Vulture (Champed)
  10. Mockingbird (11 soon to be 12 Covers)
  11. Yondu (8 Covers)
  12. Lockjaw (9 Covers)
  13. Rogue (Not yet in tokens)
My latest seem to be doing a lot better than my Classics to be honest and I’m still getting covers and champ levels for the oldies as well!  I know for me, getting 13 Covers before toons exit seems more than doable and am wondering if others are finding this to be the case as well. 

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Comments

  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    Personally, the current system has been very poor for me with regards to leveling the newer characters, but RNG has given me a draw rate of the "Latest 12" of between 20-25% for each LT in stead of the expected 42.5%, so I probably have a skewed opinion based on falling in a statistical outlier.   I've had to throw away more red covers for a 5/2/4 Hulkbuster than I've pulled for any color of Mockingbird, Yondu and Lockjaw combined.  I'm sure once enough time has passed to normalize the odds, I'll probably be more positive on the current system, although I'd prefer for them to only include the Latest 12 in the Latest Legendary Token, just to give people an option...at a cost.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm pretty sure I had through Fist champed and good start on R&G - Gamora when the change went into effect.

    Riri Williams (Champed)
    Mordo (Champed)
    Agent Coulson (Champed)
    Iron Fist (Champed)
    Cloak & Dagger (Champed)
    Rocket & Groot (Champed)
    Gamora (Champed)
    Sandman (13 Covers)
    Vulture (Champed)
    Mockingbird (11) (5 in red grrr)
    Yondu (Champed)
    Lockjaw (5 Covers)
    Rogue (4 Covers)

    The bigger problem I have is selling a lot more vine characters due to not having control over not getting characters that aren't featured.  i only sold 4 or so the whole time vaulting was in place (and those were all early from me doing a tantrum pull).  Recently I've sold 2 and have another 3 that are gonna need to be sold.

    All in all the current system is fine.  It would be better if LL only had the new ones and classic had this, but this isn't terrible by any stretch.
  • TetsujinOni
    TetsujinOni Posts: 181 Tile Toppler
    The unvaulting is garbage.

    23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?

    The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.

    The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.

    Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Riri - champed
    Mordo - Fully Covered
    Coulson - Champed
    D4nny - Champed
    C&D - Champed
    R&G - Champed
    G4mora - Champed
    Sandman - Fully Covered
    Vulture - Champed
    Mockingbird - Champed
    Yondu - Fully Covered
    Lockjaw - Fully Covered
    Rogue - 2/2/3

    22 LLs and almost 1300 CP, doing a mini-hoard for when Rogue and Gambit enter tokens. I pulled almost 400 CP for the Mes Amis store when I thought I could take advantage of the odds, the vast majority of those pulls ended up being Mockingbird. I haven't kept track of just how many were classic vs. latest, but I have gotten Yondu and Lockjaw fully covered in practically record time. I would still like separate stores for Classic and Latest 4s, but I definitely have to admit that my pull rate for latest 4s didn't suffer too drastically. I initially found myself quite concerned with how quickly I could make it happen, as vaulting practically guaranteed that I would have someone fully covered or no less than 1-2 covers short by the end of the season they've entered tokens. Bonus Heroes definitely helped, but I still would say I can expect at least 1 latest 4-star with every 2-3 pulls from the classic store. 
  • Straycat
    Straycat Posts: 963 Critical Contributor
    Vaulting ended at almost the perfect time for me. I had 8 of 12 champed and really slowed down on getting new covers. With the end of vaulting I had a good number of vintage characters covered, and the slow rate of pulling them has made it easy to champ any 14th cover without worrying about iso.

    I remember it being a little slow to get new characters, but not anywhere close to them leaving the latest 12 characters. Since the change I have champed Vulture and Sandman from latest, as well as Thing, Winter Soldier, Jean Grey, TAHulk and Ghost Rider. No hoarding at all for me, as usual.

    I've kinda been tracking my LTs, and in 133 pulls I have
    52 Vintage  39.1%
    59 Latest    44.4%
    22 5*s        16.5%
    I also had
    6 BH  (2 5*)  4.5%
    4 ~7 Dupes sold  3% -5.2%

    The rest of the new characters are
    Mockingbird (1/4/5)
    Yondu (2/1/5)
    Lockjaw (5/1/4)
    Rogue (1/3/2)

    I think 2-3 seasons are enough to get a character covered, and the stay in latest for 6 seasons(?), which is plenty of time.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's working pretty well for me.  Of latests, I've got

    Sandman (13)
    Yondu (10)
    Lockjaw (9)
    Rogue (4)

    The rest are champed.  Since the end of vaulting I've also champed 7 classics.  I don't hoard at all, and I've sold 12 covers, I think, half of which were 6th-of colors (and half of the rest were Sandman).  Acquisition has been  spread out enough that I'm able to accumulate the Iso to champ more or less as they roll in.  Waste is minimal, and I'm still making meaningful progress on champ levels for my higher level characters.
  • DFiPL
    DFiPL Posts: 2,405 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm where I had been in terms of character releases. Typically during vaulting I had 8 of the Token12 championed  (after the initial ramp-up), and was usually on the verge of a ninth when a new character released. 

    Which is where I'm at now. I'm not further ahead, but the unvaulting hasn't harmed me, either. 
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    All champed except Rogue (9 covers).

    I can see the arguments for both the current system and vaulting and having finally caught up with all 4*s it makes no difference to me.  Before that for me personally vaulting was better, but on balance I prefer the current system.

    I would say that when vaulting was initially introduced it really hurt me and I had to sell dozens of 4* covers when I opened a hoard.  It's the sudden unannounced changes that really irk people.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Daredevil217 said:
    TetsujinOni said:
    The unvaulting is garbage.

    23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?

    The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.

    The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.

    Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.
    I strongly disagree. You don’t want those 23 characters so no one should be able to have access to them?  That is a very me-centric approach to the game. I can’t imagine coming into the game today and being told with a straight face that the unreliable bonus heroes would be my only means of covering Peggy, Carol, Medusa, Blade, Red Hulk, Bobby, etc. and transitioning to the 4* tier.

    Understand that hoarding and making sure you have the means to champ someone before pulling more tokens can help mitigate waste.

    Accept that that even if you do this, cover waste will still happen from time to time and it is not the end of the world. 

    By the way, you don’t HAVE to champ everyone. I always planned to so for me I see all characters as viable, but if you don’t view someone as necessary for your progress you could just sell their covers and use the iso on those you value. I’m sure there are sleepers in the latest just like there are mega giants (listed above) in classics. This discrepancy is there with or without vaulting. Locking away 80% of the tier to minimize an unusable cover was a silly solution and I’m glad it’s done. 


    And i strongly disagree with you. Instead of coming at it with the "Vaulting is bad. Grrr" mentality, put aside your confirmation bias, and run the numbers. 

    Use 50 for your 4* count (i know there are more, but i want a nice round number.  For a new player, that is 50 roster slots and 650 pulls to get to 13/13.  

    Or, during vaulting, 12 roster slots and 156 pulls. 

    Yes, getting older covers from vaulting was way less than ideal, but my kid is at 200 days, and you know who he uses to get to 575 in pvp?  6 cover Bl4de(with no red) and 5 cover medusa and a couple others, and a couple 1 cover 5*.  He sure isnt doing that with a 1 cover mordo, 1 cover Mr.f, 2 cover sandman, 1 cover Miles, 2 cover elektra, 1 cover falcap, 1 cover kingpin, etc.  

    So by using the higher covered and higher powered newer characters, he earns more cp, which gets him more pulls, and he was on a good pace to champ a 4* in less than a year.  Now, he has a stable roster of 1 cover 4* that collect dust (if he can afford to roster them) because they are sub par, or just plain useless.  He picked up a black cover for C&D from the anniversary 10 pack today.  How useful do you honestly think that is?

    Also, to use your own example back at you: you want all those useless covers, so everyone should be forced to pull from the same diluted pool?  What a very me-centric approach to the game.

    TetsujinOni said:
    The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.
    This is the crux if it, and i left off the iso part.  Over time, vaulting helps more than it hurts. Let's throw iso in the mix for giggles. 

    Again, using round numbers for simplicity, to champ a 4* costs 375000 iso. For 50, that is 18.75 million.  For 12 that number is 4.5 million.  

    And remember, this is on top of trying to max and champ 2* and 3* to stay competitive and not waste anything.

    TL:DR
    We complained and compmained that it took forever to champ new characters, so they implemented something to help with that.  People just complained still, so they took it away.
  • shadowyoshi
    shadowyoshi Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    As someone who was gone for nearly all of vaulting (was out of the country in remote areas for work) I have to say I hate the vaulting periods very existence.

    The competition level in PVP is significantly higher than it was before my forced break and in Shield SIM I can pretty much forget the top reward now even with 20+ 4* champs because I have little to no covers on Medusa, R&G and Gamora and just finished my Captain Marvel right before anniversary (her presence alone while boosted the last two weeks has changed the entire game for me). Also, the vaulting period has resulted in many of those characters that I don't have championed yet being leveled up near 300 for many.

    Needless to say this is not a happy state of affairs (and yes I do have some top tier 4* characters champed and when those are boosted I do just fine).

    As for the current system, I find it to be a nice spot of receiving champ levels and getting new characters covered quicker. Had I been around for vaulting and gotten Medusa, R&G and the link while they were on easy street I'm sure I would be happier.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    tiomono said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    TetsujinOni said:
    The unvaulting is garbage.

    23 characters that I don't want or need for roster progress, to feed iso to in order to get back to the steady state of all token draws being usable?

    The vaulting plus BH was a better system, entirely, for both players transitioning 3-4 tier and 4-5 tier, and had better results for vets.

    The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.

    Revaulting would benefit the playerbase far more than the current system or the pre-vaulting flat system.
    I strongly disagree. You don’t want those 23 characters so no one should be able to have access to them?  That is a very me-centric approach to the game. I can’t imagine coming into the game today and being told with a straight face that the unreliable bonus heroes would be my only means of covering Peggy, Carol, Medusa, Blade, Red Hulk, Bobby, etc. and transitioning to the 4* tier.

    Understand that hoarding and making sure you have the means to champ someone before pulling more tokens can help mitigate waste.

    Accept that that even if you do this, cover waste will still happen from time to time and it is not the end of the world. 

    By the way, you don’t HAVE to champ everyone. I always planned to so for me I see all characters as viable, but if you don’t view someone as necessary for your progress you could just sell their covers and use the iso on those you value. I’m sure there are sleepers in the latest just like there are mega giants (listed above) in classics. This discrepancy is there with or without vaulting. Locking away 80% of the tier to minimize an unusable cover was a silly solution and I’m glad it’s done. 


    And i strongly disagree with you. Instead of coming at it with the "Vaulting is bad. Grrr" mentality, put aside your confirmation bias, and run the numbers. 

    Use 50 for your 4* count (i know there are more, but i want a nice round number.  For a new player, that is 50 roster slots and 650 pulls to get to 13/13.  

    Or, during vaulting, 12 roster slots and 156 pulls. 

    Yes, getting older covers from vaulting was way less than ideal, but my kid is at 200 days, and you know who he uses to get to 575 in pvp?  6 cover Bl4de(with no red) and 5 cover medusa and a couple others, and a couple 1 cover 5*.  He sure isnt doing that with a 1 cover mordo, 1 cover Mr.f, 2 cover sandman, 1 cover Miles, 2 cover elektra, 1 cover falcap, 1 cover kingpin, etc.  

    So by using the higher covered and higher powered newer characters, he earns more cp, which gets him more pulls, and he was on a good pace to champ a 4* in less than a year.  Now, he has a stable roster of 1 cover 4* that collect dust (if he can afford to roster them) because they are sub par, or just plain useless.  He picked up a black cover for C&D from the anniversary 10 pack today.  How useful do you honestly think that is?

    Also, to use your own example back at you: you want all those useless covers, so everyone should be forced to pull from the same diluted pool?  What a very me-centric approach to the game.

    TetsujinOni said:
    The current system is fundamentally worse for players over time, even assuming a vast Iso surplus.
    This is the crux if it, and i left off the iso part.  Over time, vaulting helps more than it hurts. Let's throw iso in the mix for giggles. 

    Again, using round numbers for simplicity, to champ a 4* costs 375000 iso. For 50, that is 18.75 million.  For 12 that number is 4.5 million.  

    And remember, this is on top of trying to max and champ 2* and 3* to stay competitive and not waste anything.

    TL:DR
    We complained and compmained that it took forever to champ new characters, so they implemented something to help with that.  People just complained still, so they took it away.
    For me I could see benefits of vaulting. Those newest 12 characters got a fast track to champ status. But the downsides were more frustrating and unsatisfying than the benefits.

    Carol is my highest leveled champ at 286. My first ever champed 4 Thor sits at 272. That for me was the frustration. Working hard to get characters champed and looking forward to adding champ levels and see them get stronger, only to have them relegated to almost exclusively a bonus hero perk. But bonus hero for 4's is really poor if you set more than 1.

    Vaulting was an absurdly poor fix to the problem of dillution.

    And that "useless" 1 cover cloak and dagger that your kid pulled is called progress. If they can roster it they would have access to playing essential nodes featuring that character. Deadpool daily burrito just became an option as well. If cloak and dagger were vaulted your child would be at the mercy of the bonus hero system to get them. Or they would be denied a chance of competing at higher levels because of lack of roster diversity. Now times that by 45. That's how many characters would be vaulted right now.

    Vaulting was a horribly flawed system for new players. Whether or not the math us on your side, it made progress for 47 characters feel impossible.
    Sure, 4hor probably stalled, progress-wise.  But so did (prior to fixes) mr.f, venom, and plenty others that are just not keeping up with the power creep.

    I agree, there are better ways to solve dilution. Doing nothing wasnt working. At least they tried something. I think the implementation, as well as lack of prior notice and lead up, led to the negative connotation attached to it by people.

    Maybe it's just anecdotal, but having the one cover doesnt bringa lot of joy, especially for a passive power.  How often is that one cover 4* the required essential?  Approximately once every 40 or 50 pve?  What is that, three to four months?  Sacrifice that for hitting 575 twice a week.  Are you really going to tell me you would make that trade???  Not to mention, i think the non vaulted characters were more often the essential character, so he was able to do more pve during that period then he is now.

    Progress may have felt impossible, but he has a lot more fun using characters that have several covers than just throwing in the occasional meat shield for his 3hanos in pve rounds. 
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,501 Chairperson of the Boards
    yeah, basically if you were playing and pulling during vaulting, you have an elite level tier of 4*.  But now that vaulting is over, it's really hard to get new 4* over 300.

      It's alright for my roster because I have a nice stable of 300 to 350 4* to work with (that boost over 450) But it will be hard to pull rogue, vulture mockingbird etc over 300 before those chars are obsolete like hulk buster and teen Jean.

      Let's be frank was fun, because I could exclusively run 3 4* over 450 and hold my own against those 8-10 cover 5*.

    But I don't look forward  too the day that carol, max pun,medusa. Are obsoleted by the next 4* on the converor.  I'll try to ride my current advantage as 
    ong as possible.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    @spudgutter
    But he is hitting 575 2 times a week with undercovered 4 stars right now. And just drew a cover for one of the 12 with higher draw rates. So it's still giving good progress while not locking away the vast majority of the characters in the 4 star tier. To me that sounds better than how vaulting was.

     Is the current system the perfect solution for every player? Nope, but I feel it's more beneficial to a wider range of players than the vaulting system was.


  • ABaker84
    ABaker84 Posts: 90 Match Maker
    I love the semi-unvaulted solution. But I'm in the stage where I'm still building my 4*roster. If I were a veteran player that just wanted the newest 4*, or a new player that didn't have a lot of 4*s yet nor the HP to roster them,I might feel otherwise. 

    There is definitely an advantage to having a few good characters to use, so vaulting helped with that as I could focus on the latest and start being competitive against other 4* players (didn't hurt that Medusa, C4rol, and Blade we're recent releases at the time ... Top tier!) But once my "A-Team" was stablished, then I gotta catch em all. 

    In my case, the distribution of pulls since unvaulting (recent vs classic/vaulted) has leaned towards classic, which again I'm happy with because I want to fill out my 4* toons that only have 1-5 covers. 


  • DrDevilDinosaur
    DrDevilDinosaur Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker

    I reduced my dedication to the game when vintage 4*'s were added back into tokens. In turn, that meant that I've slowed the rate at which I am able to champ characters.

    From the latest pool, I had Coulson, Mordo and Gamora on 13 covers when vaulting was rolled back. I have since champed Coulson and Mordo, but Gamora is still waiting for a 14th cover to arrive. I did also champ Fury at the start of the Anniversary, but he had been sitting at lv 229 for more than a year already anyway. He was just lucky that I had the spare ISO lying around this time.

    I'm mostly feeling it around the very latest 4* characters. After Gamora, I have Sandman on 10 covers, Vulture (as BH!) on 8, and everyone else on 4 or less. Whenever I have been lucky enough for my 4* draw to come from the latest 12, it's often been a champ level rather than something towards a new character. At least it's not wasted, I guess.

    Personally, I would still prefer to return to vaulting, but I recognise that I'm in that portion of the player base who would get the best value out of it while others would find it restrictive to their roster growth.

  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2017
    I've pulled exactly one yondu and that was yesterday. Under vaulting I'd probably have him fully covered and working towards champing him.

    Meanwhile, I'm pulling a cover here, a cover there for over 40 champs. Awesome cover 275 for chi, I'll see cover 276 two months from now.

    I'm just glad that I went all in on vaulting when the getting was good.

    ETA: unvaulting has allowed me to catch up on champing previously vaulted characters. Now I'm just down to Eddie Venom as my 46th champ, then just have to wait on finishing off the remaining 8-9 left.
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,734 Chairperson of the Boards
    It has been great for me. I'm getting consistent covers for the latest characters, but I've also champed some older characters who were stalled because of vaulting. I just recently champed X-23 and Prof X. 
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    tiomono said:
    But he is hitting 575 2 times a week with undercovered 4 stars right now. And just drew a cover for one of the 12 with higher draw rates. So it's still giving good progress while not locking away the vast majority of the characters in the 4 star tier. To me that sounds better than how vaulting was.

     Is the current system the perfect solution for every player? Nope, but I feel it's more beneficial to a wider range of players than the vaulting system was.


    To be fair, he pulled the c&d from the anniversary vault, but the point still stands. In order to pull the other two covers from a classic token, he has a 1 in 54 chance, twice.  Thats 108 pulls. If it were during vaulting, 1 in 12, twice.  24. That is a huge difference!  I get that they are "3x" more likely, but the dilution is still there.  

    The perfect solution for every player, in my opinion, is several tokens, each with a set number of certain covers, so that you could more easily target who you want.  But i doubt we will ever see that.

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