Unhealthy PVE: Tap tap tap the whole day

grunth13

Tapping is not the problem, placement and bracket filling is the problem.  I don't think they will take away the placement because that's what makes us actually play and spend money.  So, that brings up bracket filling.  As I was reading this, I noticed many in here who are also on line.  We on line know within a minute when the bracket fills and the next one starts.  Many rooms dedicated to it.  Now, there are maybe 2 to 5k people who play mpq that are on line (most likely closer to the 2k) of which not all are in bracket rooms.  The devs have said that there are about 100k people actually playing the game.  That means 95-99k people have no idea when a bracket fills.  Why should one of them get screwed out of placement because s/he joined 10 seconds ealier at 1000 and the next guy/gal joins at 1 in the next bracket?  They both will play optimally at that point, both will end up with a very similar score.  Why should 1 get 1st place because s/he is in a bracket room vs the other who is uninitiated?  This is a game that people will play at their own speed.  Its a game that people will spend money at their own desire.  If someone doesn't want or can't spend a ton of money to be at the top, but has a ton of time on their hands, repetitive tapping satisfies them.  Its their life, why do you get to decide what's healthy or not healthy for them?  Are they allowed to tell you how to spend your money and whether its healthy or not spending thousands on MPQ?  Now the original post was made by someone who is considered a PVE master from what I hear.  He starts the PVE'ing optimally at the very start...so he is doing it right, but he is complaining about someone spending countless hours tapping a node to beat him and he calls it unhealthy.  The OP is also a good PVP player who used to spend hours on a single hop in pvp.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  He spends countless hours on line planning his next move in PVP.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  Let people play their style, unless you want your style called into question.  Maybe this person twisted their ankle and wasn't allowed to do anything else...so this person had PVE and TV...maybe they did both.  You can't judge until you know they others motivation.  Or maybe they really just like Lockjaw.

Wonko33

AngryGerman said:

Wonko33 said:

Maybe he's just OCD and wants them all to be down to 0, either way he deserves first place

No one has said that he doesn't deserve first place. He put in some serious work. What people have been saying is the mechanic that allows him to play for 16+ hours over 2 days shouldn't exist. It's bad for the health of the player and the game. 

So who finishes first then? The first person to get to the max points? That is just as unjust and , just as current situation, also as a huge impact on personal life since not only you have to be fast but have to start the second the event starts

Daiches

grunth13 said:

Now the original post was made by someone who is considered a PVE master from what I hear.  He starts the PVE'ing optimally at the very start...so he is doing it right, but he is complaining about someone spending countless hours tapping a node to beat him and he calls it unhealthy.  The OP is also a good PVP player who used to spend hours on a single hop in pvp.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  He spends countless hours on line planning his next move in PVP.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  Let people play their style, 

Thx for the kind words, Grunth.
But you're exaggerating the time spent on hops, especially the last few seasons. Sounds more like an S3 thing. And the time I spend on Line is more socializing and less Qing

Still pretty different hopping 3x per day or so and spending a few minutes here and there checking Line than spending 8 continuous hours hitting the same node over and over and then doing it again the same day when you already have an invicible lead.

But the point of the original post was to show that what we said to the devs would happen IS happening. Especially since their stated goal was to eliminate such behavior and the reason they gave for that is because they found it unhealthy. 
I'm calling for a change in PVE. Speed and skill are enough to determine a winner. Treating the game like a second full time job should never be.

grunth13

Daiches said:

grunth13 said:

Now the original post was made by someone who is considered a PVE master from what I hear.  He starts the PVE'ing optimally at the very start...so he is doing it right, but he is complaining about someone spending countless hours tapping a node to beat him and he calls it unhealthy.  The OP is also a good PVP player who used to spend hours on a single hop in pvp.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  He spends countless hours on line planning his next move in PVP.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  Let people play their style, 

Thx for the kind words, Grunth.
But you're exaggerating the time spent on hops, especially the last few seasons. Sounds more like an S3 thing. And the time I spend on Line is more socializing and less Qing

Still pretty different hopping 3x per day or so and spending a few minutes here and there checking Line than spending 8 continuous hours hitting the same node over and over and then doing it again the same day when you already have an invicible lead.

But the point of the original post was to show that what we said to the devs would happen IS happening. Especially since their stated goal was to eliminate such behavior and the reason they gave for that is because they found it unhealthy. 
I'm calling for a change in PVE. Speed and skill are enough to determine a winner. Treating the game like a second full time job should never be.

Hence why I said USED TO.  And lets be honest, s4 not doing what it used to be able to wasn't a planned thing, it happened by other means.  As for hopping 3x a day, haven't you proudly proclaimed on here and discord how much Hero Points you use to build up the points in your slice?  That requires a lot more than 3 hops a days.  As for the way the devs desire us to play...well, just because they have said it doesn't necessarily mean that's what they want.  They probably didn't want us to tap a easy node thousands of times...hence why that option was taken away.  They might want us to continue doing it on hard nodes because not everyone has bb/strange to wipe a goon node without taking any damage and that makes people buy health packs (remember OML nerf).  You definitely can't do that in a sustained manner with any 3star or 4star roster.  So you are now talking about a very small subset of the 100k player base that CAN do that, then you reduce that number by the people who are WILLING to do that and it really isn't that many people.  I doubt they care to change the whole pve process for about 20-30 players who can and want to sit around for hours tapping mindlessly.  Heck, they can't get things changed that affects all the player base because they are working on the next great character release.

Daiches

grunth13 said:

Daiches said:

grunth13 said:

Now the original post was made by someone who is considered a PVE master from what I hear.  He starts the PVE'ing optimally at the very start...so he is doing it right, but he is complaining about someone spending countless hours tapping a node to beat him and he calls it unhealthy.  The OP is also a good PVP player who used to spend hours on a single hop in pvp.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  He spends countless hours on line planning his next move in PVP.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  Let people play their style, 

Thx for the kind words, Grunth.
But you're exaggerating the time spent on hops, especially the last few seasons. Sounds more like an S3 thing. And the time I spend on Line is more socializing and less Qing

Still pretty different hopping 3x per day or so and spending a few minutes here and there checking Line than spending 8 continuous hours hitting the same node over and over and then doing it again the same day when you already have an invicible lead.

But the point of the original post was to show that what we said to the devs would happen IS happening. Especially since their stated goal was to eliminate such behavior and the reason they gave for that is because they found it unhealthy. 
I'm calling for a change in PVE. Speed and skill are enough to determine a winner. Treating the game like a second full time job should never be.

Hence why I said USED TO.  And lets be honest, s4 not doing what it used to be able to wasn't a planned thing, it happened by other means.  As for hopping 3x a day, haven't you proudly proclaimed on here and discord how much Hero Points you use to build up the points in your slice?  That requires a lot more than 3 hops a days.  As for the way the devs desire us to play...well, just because they have said it doesn't necessarily mean that's what they want.  They probably didn't want us to tap a easy node thousands of times...hence why that option was taken away.  They might want us to continue doing it on hard nodes because not everyone has bb/strange to wipe a goon node without taking any damage and that makes people buy health packs (remember OML nerf).  You definitely can't do that in a sustained manner with any 3star or 4star roster.  So you are now talking about a very small subset of the 100k player base that CAN do that, then you reduce that number by the people who are WILLING to do that and it really isn't that many people.  I doubt they care to change the whole pve process for about 20-30 players who can and want to sit around for hours tapping mindlessly.  Heck, they can't get things changed that affects all the player base because they are working on the next great character release.

Since you want to discuss my gaming habits, I'll be honest here:
I'm not on Discord, so don't think I bragged there.
But yes, I used to spend about 2k HP per event doing 9 hops per day or so. But work changed. I have much less time to play. So I hop 3-4 times max and so my spending on # has dropped considerably over the last year. It didn't affect my spending though.
I still buy a Stark every 2 months or so. I've never bought a 40 pack. Or a 10-pack. I spend on shields and slots, and I need a lot more slots for 3star dupes now. I can still break somewhat even from PVE. I'm no big whale. I'm barely a manatee.

Too bad I'm forbidden by forum rules from talking about the tapper's spend and play habits. It would enlighten the playerbase as well.

grunth13

Sorry,  i mean Reddit.
Daiches said:

grunth13 said:

Daiches said:

grunth13 said:

Now the original post was made by someone who is considered a PVE master from what I hear.  He starts the PVE'ing optimally at the very start...so he is doing it right, but he is complaining about someone spending countless hours tapping a node to beat him and he calls it unhealthy.  The OP is also a good PVP player who used to spend hours on a single hop in pvp.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  He spends countless hours on line planning his next move in PVP.  Why is this not considered unhealthy?  Let people play their style, 

Thx for the kind words, Grunth.
But you're exaggerating the time spent on hops, especially the last few seasons. Sounds more like an S3 thing. And the time I spend on Line is more socializing and less Qing

Still pretty different hopping 3x per day or so and spending a few minutes here and there checking Line than spending 8 continuous hours hitting the same node over and over and then doing it again the same day when you already have an invicible lead.

But the point of the original post was to show that what we said to the devs would happen IS happening. Especially since their stated goal was to eliminate such behavior and the reason they gave for that is because they found it unhealthy. 
I'm calling for a change in PVE. Speed and skill are enough to determine a winner. Treating the game like a second full time job should never be.

Hence why I said USED TO.  And lets be honest, s4 not doing what it used to be able to wasn't a planned thing, it happened by other means.  As for hopping 3x a day, haven't you proudly proclaimed on here and discord how much Hero Points you use to build up the points in your slice?  That requires a lot more than 3 hops a days.  As for the way the devs desire us to play...well, just because they have said it doesn't necessarily mean that's what they want.  They probably didn't want us to tap a easy node thousands of times...hence why that option was taken away.  They might want us to continue doing it on hard nodes because not everyone has bb/strange to wipe a goon node without taking any damage and that makes people buy health packs (remember OML nerf).  You definitely can't do that in a sustained manner with any 3star or 4star roster.  So you are now talking about a very small subset of the 100k player base that CAN do that, then you reduce that number by the people who are WILLING to do that and it really isn't that many people.  I doubt they care to change the whole pve process for about 20-30 players who can and want to sit around for hours tapping mindlessly.  Heck, they can't get things changed that affects all the player base because they are working on the next great character release.

Since you want to discuss my gaming habits, I'll be honest here:
I'm not on Discord, so don't think I bragged there.
But yes, I used to spend about 2k HP per event doing 9 hops per day or so. But work changed. I have much less time to play. So I hop 3-4 times max and so my spending on # has dropped considerably over the last year. It didn't affect my spending though.
I still buy a Stark every 2 months or so. I've never bought a 40 pack. Or a 10-pack. I spend on shields and slots, and I need a lot more slots for 3star dupes now. I can still break somewhat even from PVE. I'm no big whale. I'm barely a manatee.

Too bad I'm forbidden by forum rules from talking about the tapper's spend and play habits. It would enlighten the playerbase as well.

Phumade

oh man we need the picture of the beached manatee now
http://www.bradenton.com/news/weather/hurricane/article172457112.html

Calnexin

Lucifier said:

<snip>

putting all players in one bracket (even tho there are 5 time slices) will decrease the number of player that can get the high placement rewards (which i do not think that will encourage players to play more).

The way to fix that is to change the reward scheme.  I play another game that awards prizes based on "top X %", with cutoffs for top 1, 5, 10, 50, and "everyone".  It's a similar reward payout that D3 provides by splitting into discrete brackets and cutting off the prizes at specific numbers, but they can't do it that way and still maintain different start times and the node refresh mechanic.  They do it this way (I assume) to make it more accessible worldwide, trying to implement a system where no one timezone had an inherent advantage.  But the player base turns that on its head by manipulating brackets so instead of advantage to timezones, its advantage to people willing and able to game the system.

Punisher5784

Sorry I had to

entrailbucket

I think it's pretty funny that people who spend (Or, spent?  Don't care.) countless hours grinding baby cupcake teams to put up huge inflated score totals in PvP are now *enraged* about other people spending countless hours grinding baby cupcake teams to put up huge inflated score totals in PvE.

If they're going to fix one of the modes, maybe they should fix the one that's meant to be purely competitive first.

SnowcaTT

Solution (as always): All PVE rewards should be on progression.

Make those extra covers really tough! Must finish all initial clears in first hour and all final clears in last hour!

People obviously (already) doing that, shouldn't make placement folks battle the crazy time that top placement is taking.

Beer40

Wonko33 said:

AngryGerman said:

Wonko33 said:

Maybe he's just OCD and wants them all to be down to 0, either way he deserves first place

No one has said that he doesn't deserve first place. He put in some serious work. What people have been saying is the mechanic that allows him to play for 16+ hours over 2 days shouldn't exist. It's bad for the health of the player and the game. 

So who finishes first then? The first person to get to the max points? That is just as unjust and , just as current situation, also as a huge impact on personal life since not only you have to be fast but have to start the second the event starts

You already have to start the second the event starts and be fast. Nothing would change there... If they locked all the nodes down to 0 after 6 clears then you'd have to still start right on time and perfectly execute your last 2 clears of each node. Just as you have to now, except without the ridiculousness of grinding nodes for no rewards.

Lucifier

SnowcaTT said:

Solution (as always): All PVE rewards should be on progression.

Make those extra covers really tough! Must finish all initial clears in first hour and all final clears in last hour!

People obviously (already) doing that, shouldn't make placement folks battle the crazy time that top placement is taking.

the majority of players are not doing that, the majority just going for progression rewards and are taking it easy.
or just go to green tick (6 clears not 7 clears) not 4 clears in first hour and closing in the last hour.

GuiPerdigao

Thruth be told....everybody wants an easy life.

So if someone can put in time and play the nodes endlessly there will be people complaining.

Depending on the time some won't be able to play with the refresh times so there will be people complaning.

Most want to be free to play at any time they want, spend how many time they want, whenever they want and even though we could simply do this there wold be people complaning.

It is very hard to find a fair way to place and reaward everyone considering all this. I see many complaining and not many sugestions. Everyone just wants to play his own game.

For me the only solution would be to not have rewards by placement. Only for progression, so you could play anyway you want...and I guess there would still be people complaining.

JRYUART

Well the devs say that the extra points are to determine tiebreakers.  Since this game has many elements that are based strictly on luck/rng that we (reluctantly) accept, maybe they could implement a system where the top 10 fastest clearers are put in a prize pool where the winning placements are randomized with everyone getting the same odds to potentially win t1-2, t3-5, t6-10?  It would take at least a little of the sting out of being out-tapped despite optimal pve play without changing the current system too much.  People who were already going for optimal play were already committed to specific mpq playing time so it wouldn't change anything for them much either.

shardwick

SnowcaTT said:

Solution (as always): All PVE rewards should be on progression.

Make those extra covers really tough! Must finish all initial clears in first hour and all final clears in last hour!

People obviously (already) doing that, shouldn't make placement folks battle the crazy time that top placement is taking.

Well if we're going to talk about progression then to me the best solution would be the following:

Clearing nodes 4 times - 15 cp
Clearing nodes 5 times - bonus iso, cp, hp
Clearing nodes 6 times - 4* cover featured in next event and unlocks a bonus sub to earn more rewards

I don't really see the point of limiting the best rewards to those that can finish the fastest in the first and last hour in your system. I mean let's say that you do fast clears but your internet goes out right when a sub starts and doesn't come back on for two hours. You're screwed out of earning top rewards right from the start for something you had no control over. It just sounds like the current system but with "progression" slapped on top of it.

Electrovirus

I think they should introduce harder scaling so defeating a node 12+ times would be an accomplishment.  

Electrovirus

Also a veteran player should only be allowed to enter CL 7 or higher, etc.

elvy75

devs said that they left 1, 2. 3 pointers as tie breaks. The best idea someone had that is not affecting optimal play is to have green and red checks. Green for all the node rewards, red for something like hitting node 10 times. 

carrion_pigeons

10 times wouldn't solve the tie breaking issue.  It would actually make more people grind to exactly 10 clears,  both making tie breaks more of an issue and driving those same people to complain about increased grindiness.

Psychology is the big factor here.   How do you convince people to let someone else win?  The only real way is to allow players to convince each other they won't be allowed to win.   This is what tie breakers do for the game right now. 

The real problem with the current system is that a game as heavily progress-oriented as this one is makes it impossible to have 1st place rewards be meaningful enough to justify the design: make the rewards bigger and grinders get too far ahead.