I've found myself looking forward to the new PVP system.

Lucifier

Milk Jugz 

the progression reward in PVP does not feel like progression at all.

for example in Boss event, the progression reward is better implemented, i start facing enemy at level 325 (with my low char), i was losing but still getting points added to my progression counter, my progression points does not go down neither stay at same value.


i will explain my point in another way:

lets assume i am invisible no one can see me in PVP, with my 3* char, i will start playing facing easy, and then average players, lets assume i hit now 575, i will start facing more difficult enemy, lets assume i hit now 725, i will face more difficult players, i try and i might hit 800 or even 900 (till i face impossible players for me).
that would be considered progression.
but while i am in 575 (i know with my 3* char i can do better, and i am winning new fights), the problem is others hits me (i am not invisible ) and my progression reward goes down, and then i try again and again and again.

this is not progression, this is competing, hence this should be ranking (placement) rewards.
i was able to take down team with one or 2 4* char with more health than me.


and the difference between low roasters and high roaster still exists, the low roaster more likely will need health pack or wait longer time for healing, more difficult to win one more fight, take longer time to achieve what a normal achievement for high roaster players.

Milk Jugz

Lucifier said:

Milk Jugz 

the progression reward in PVP does not feel like progression at all.

for example in Boss event, the progression reward is better implemented, i start facing enemy at level 325 (with my low char), i was losing but still getting points added to my progression counter, my progression points does not go down neither stay at same value.


i will explain my point in another way:

lets assume i am invisible no one can see me in PVP, with my 3* char, i will start playing facing easy, and then average players, lets assume i hit now 575, i will start facing more difficult enemy, lets assume i hit now 725, i will face more difficult players, i try and i might hit 800 or even 900 (till i face impossible players for me).
that would be considered progression.
but while i am in 575 (i know with my 3* char i can do better, and i am winning new fights), the problem is others hits me (i am not invisible ) and my progression reward goes down, and then i try again and again and again.

this is not progression, this is competing, hence this should be ranking (placement) rewards.
i was able to take down team with one or 2 4* char with more health than me.


and the difference between low roasters and high roaster still exists, the low roaster more likely will need health pack or wait longer time for healing, more difficult to win one more fight, take longer time to achieve what a normal achievement for high roaster players.

That is the heart of VERSUS. You are competing with other player's rosters. If you are getting beat back down once you cross a certain point threshold that is were your roster strength can hold you. Anything higher than that takes proper timed shield hops. It can't be any plainer, in Versus mode progression IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be guaranteed! If you build your roster, the rewards will come!! 

hkattman

I really hope they do something to fix PVP.  I usually play PVP to 900.  But when I shield after 800, I can go play a battle at PVE and my score will fall because the same person will attack me several times while I'm shielded.  Interesting how I can drop the score after I shield  The game also doesn't like to give me opponents worth more than 20 points but has no problem knocking me down 30 or more points per battle.  So what happens is that I fight a battle for 28 points, get knocked down for 39 points, shield and after shielding get hit for like 60 more points.  I still am able to fight my way up to 900 but this is become an every pvp event lately.  I would much rather fight a certain amount of battles than deal with these screwed up features.

Lucifier

ok then by your logic, it should be only placements rewards (and add more to it), and remove the "progression rewards that make no sense".

Milk Jugz said:

If you are getting beat back down once you cross a certain point threshold that is were your roster strength can hold you

there is no threshold, i might beat back down at any point.

but i can beat players with much much better char than mine, that does not mean i am better than them and they should go down, it is how this game works.

for example for current event i got the 650 point reward, ok i stopped trying to hit 725, because every-time i win a new fight, while it ends, i found out someone hit me and i lost.

anyway ***********    now i have " 307 " points  ************* and it might go down !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do you mean that's what it should be, my level worth 300 points, while in some previous events i hit 800 point rewards, do you see the big gap here.

in PVP the attacker is more powerful than the defender, lower players can attack and win the higher player, hence one part that cause the instability in progress evaluation.

That is the heart of VERSUS.

i understand VERSUS and i agree with you (hence the placement rewards).

but Progression "word" means something else, so either change the way it work, remove it, or change the word progression to something else.

do you pass elementary school and then secondary school, go to collage, and one day you find out you lost all your degrees and you have to start over in elementary school,

while in each school or collage there is placement and there is VERSUS, but also there is a progress.

for example you took break form school (lets say one month, or one year for medical reasons), when you come back, they will not send you back 3 or 4 year "sorry you should repeat the last 4 years of study" this will not be a progress.

some can finish exam fast and pass (get 1st rank or top 10), some take them long time (not in the top) but they will pass, some maybe not (but they had their chance they did not go for it, they did not study, they did not try hard enough).

Milk Jugz

"but i can beat players with much much better char than mine, that does not mean i am better than them and they should go down, it is how this game works."

If they have better characters they are absolutely going to hit you back and take the points back you took from them. You need to take that into account with your strategy, especially not shielding. Sure you can win that match, but can you hold onto the points you take from them? If they answer is assuredly no, then you are punching above your weight class and will fall back down. 

My roster can't float over 900!! I have to hang a shield to stay there for placement. If you're on a PC device you can see my signature, 36 champ 4s. My roster floats at about 550. If you're getting beat down to 300- that's where your roster floats, to go higher than that you will need to use shields and time your hops when others are not playing. That's how I get from my float point to 900+. Since your roster floats at a lower score you may need 2 properly times hops to hit 900+. That is just part of the strategy a win based Versus progression system would kill. 

You need to experiment with:
1) The time slice you choose
2) When to start
3) Where your roster floats
4) When to make your hop
5) How many matches should you do this hop before you shield
6) How long to shield
7) When to make your next hop (Repeat #5, 6, & 7 as needed)
8) When to time the last hop, be it after 1, 2, or 3 hops, so you can shield out to the end of event

Some people in my alliance shield hop 5+ times to score 1.5K+

There is far morer involved than just barrel your way to 900 points. 

Lucifier

you are getting out of the context, i am not saying that for placement thing, i am talking for the progression thing.

and the current reward strategy will just increase the gap between players, after 2 years, player with same of my roaster (or yours) can not do as much as we can do now.

there is no fix threshold here.

in October 2015  there is a thread explaining how 3* char can hit 1300 points (apparently at that time the max reward was at 1300 point)


better way to explain general idea here is:

1- you said this is VERSUS  PVP (Player Versus Player) ( and this how versus should be)
  generally i agree with you (but they have to remove the progression rewards, and only use placement reward and change its values).

BUT

2- PVE (Player Versus Engine) why there is placement rewards, i am beating the engine, i should get the same reward as other player also beating the engine, it is not PVP (so it should not be how good are you compared to another player, it should be how good are you compare to the Engine).


SO: if all types of rewards in PVP, SHOULD be related how good are you comparing to another players, 
THEN: all types of rewards in PVE, SHOULD be how good are you comparing to the Engine.

Or both event they should have both rewards placement rewards and progression rewards (don't go down).

Bowgentle

TetsujinOni said:

Lucifier said:

TetsujinOni said:

I've been 1200ing in PvP since I had a pitiful roster of 3* Iron Man/Vision as my A team. Day 612.

You're just not willing to discover how to get effective at PvP *and then execute*.

day 612, when was that, was many players have 5* or 4* char at that time? (i know 3* should not see 5* in pvp).

I am newbie to the game i think day 118 now, have about 12 or 13 3* champed still highest one level 174. (also highest) char

only one time till now i hit 800.

now we i get close to 700 points, i start see 4* char with over 20k health.

how can i go anymore with only simple 3* char champed? and even when i can go a bit more, i get hit and bring down by much.

few days ago, last hour before the event end (i was shielded with over 728 point), and i try to find another opponent to hit, i check i see 4* team high health too, skip check again the same, i think i skip like 15 or 20 times, all most likely i will lose in the fight.


how it is possible to hit 1200 now (this day) i don't know, and this is not just my opinion, i was talking to a alliance leader (who have many 4* champed) and asked him if possible to me to hit 900 (he says difficult and you will spend so much on shielding).

do you think it is still possible to hit 1200 with 3* champed?

I am day 612 now, it was about 390 days ago that I started being able to hit 1300 regularly (it was 1300 not 1200 for the 25CP all-in-one-lump  at that point). 

Based on the tighter MMR, it is *easier* to have appropriate targets, but *harder* because those who don't enjoy getting in the scrum eject early at 575.

It seems to me that the 10 CP at 575 was an error and has harmed the PvP system by encouraging early exit from point generation.

To be fair, you spent your way to where you are now.
That's not a path for everyone.
The mindset is right, though.

Felessa

The main problem is that Versus has two sides of rewards, Progression and Placement, and different kinds of players are interest more in one than the other, because the two aren't the same thing, so they can't be treated as equal. Curiously, Story has the SAME side of rewards, and that's why many players (including me) see "Progression" as something you have to fight for, but that can not be taken away from you. Placement is where the competition aspect should be (Story or Versus).

IMO, the better idea I read till now is the hybrid system: where progress is made of points or wins, it's up to you choose which better suits your playstyle.

broll

revskip said:

Evilplayer said:

I hope they add the new system asap. 

I hope that nothing changes.  PVP works as it is.  It just requires that you understand resource management.  You spend some HP on shields and in return receive covers and/or CP.  And all of that is possible with a decent 4* roster in under 30 fights.  

Alternately you don't need to spend any HP and can still get to 575 pretty easily even with a 3* roster if you time your climb correctly.  And in way less fights than the test required.  

PvP doesn't work.  Some people have made it work for them and those people don't want to see it changed because the current system benefits them.  The current system can be made to work through a number of methods like throwing a ton of HP and/or working cooperatively in an as close to win trading as this game can offer mechanic, but it doesn't work obviously and for all.  The devs should create something that is more straight forward and user friendly.  I'm not saying that the win based test they did was the best or ideal way, but it's better than the garbage in game now.

Lucifier

THIS IS LAST TIME I GO FOR PROGRESSION REWARDS IN PVP

i reach 790 point, and shielded, Great right.

hours later, i get out of shield (before the shield ends) and won one fight (+20 points) in less than 3 minutes,
just to find out i got attacked in less than 3 minutes window, and lost like 50 points.

i tried again i won another fight, i got attacked and as overall i lost more points.

GREAT PROGRESSION.

i might try again later (you know after 2 or 3 YEARS).

Dormammu

One of the things I've seen mentioned in this thread is eliminating progression (threshold) prizes from PvP. While this sounds crazy at first, as PvP has had progression prizes since the very beginning, it actually makes sense to me. It's a competition. Placement prizes could easily be more robust and spread out down the placement tree, or PvP tournaments could be shorter and more frequent.

Conversely, it wouldn't bother me one bit if placement prizes were removed from PvE.

Reecoh

Dormammu said:

One of the things I've seen mentioned in this thread is eliminating progression (threshold) prizes from PvP. 

Conversely, it wouldn't bother me one bit if placement prizes were removed from PvE.

This makes the most sense to me. Right now the two play systems rewards are a hybrid of each other and much of the player base seems very polarized toward one or the other, when really they aren't that different.

PVP is not true PVP in my mind b/c it's still you vs. an AI team, so the verses aspect is all about the points.

PVE is all about timing & how fast you can clear nodes. If the start times offered don't line up well with your real-life commitments then you are out of luck before you make a single match. I'd rather be able to play at my pace over the 24/48 hours a node is open.

I guess the devs feel they need both kinds of rewards to cater to all kinds of players in each situation, but it seems like it would work better if they were more distinct. 

revskip

broll said:

revskip said:

Evilplayer said:

I hope they add the new system asap. 

I hope that nothing changes.  PVP works as it is.  It just requires that you understand resource management.  You spend some HP on shields and in return receive covers and/or CP.  And all of that is possible with a decent 4* roster in under 30 fights.  

Alternately you don't need to spend any HP and can still get to 575 pretty easily even with a 3* roster if you time your climb correctly.  And in way less fights than the test required.  

PvP doesn't work.  Some people have made it work for them and those people don't want to see it changed because the current system benefits them.  The current system can be made to work through a number of methods like throwing a ton of HP and/or working cooperatively in an as close to win trading as this game can offer mechanic, but it doesn't work obviously and for all.  The devs should create something that is more straight forward and user friendly.  I'm not saying that the win based test they did was the best or ideal way, but it's better than the garbage in game now.

If some people have made it work for them then it works.  That there is a group of people vehemently opposed to doing what is necessary to make it work for them doesn't invalidate that it works.  If you don't want to exchange HP in shields and ISO in skips for 4* covers and CP that is fine.  But then don't expect those rewards if you aren't doing what is necessary to earn them.  

I usually do a lot of coordinating because I enjoy the competitive scoring of PVP yet have a roster that needs to punch above its weight to get top placement.  I had a super busy weekend this past week and wasn't able to early climb.  I did my entire climb in one long session in the final three hours which is obviously sub-optimal since there are fewer high point targets available since most of the top scorers are shielded to the end of the event by then.  I was still easily able to hit 900 in 19 fights without seeds using just one 3 hour shield to hold my score in place.  I queued no grills, hit only teams that were my strength or higher and was hit just a couple of times on the way.  

There is a direct correlation between roster strength and how much HP you'll need to spend to earn top progression and placement rewards.  Outside coordination can make it much easier but is hardly necessary.  There are also several other factors that you need to learn through practice: ideal float point, best times to climb, best teams for fast hops, when to do your skipping for targets etc.  It isn't the mindless grind that PVE is where you get all the prizes just for showing up and hammering away over and over.  It takes some strategy and some practice.  

Pants1000

I see a lot of people defending the existing system, but there are also a lot of people that don't enjoy it.  The fact that many people don't like the current system tells me that it should be changed.  Hopefully they can come up with a compromise that gets more people playing without breaking what some people like.

Milk Jugz

@Lucifier

You are not understanding me, I blame myself. I should not have said I shield out at the end for placement, it confused my point and I apologize. I care about placement so I shield at the end once I've hit 900 to secure, usually, t25.

If you don't care about placement then the end shield is an unnecessary expense. However, with your roster strength it will still cost you shields and properly timed hops to hit 900+. Even if you don't shield there to hold placement, to get the progression you still need to utilize the proper strategy. Which means using shields and timing your hops. I'm not the only one preaching this!!! It works and many veterans have been out here saying it's possible.

If you find you just can't do it yet, keep building your roster. It will get easier. Progression rewards in Versus are not guaranteed rewards as they are in Story. Nor should they be.

Jaedenkaal

Pants1000 said:

The fact that many people don't like the current system tells me that it should be changed.

Unfortunately, that logic really breaks down in large groups of people. Heck, even small groups of people. There will always be "many people" who don't like the current system. Name something you think is perfect. I can tell you now, "many people" don't like it.

broll

revskip said:

If some people have made it work for them then it works.  

...umm... let me stop you right there.  So if a car company sells a car that has a gas tank that has hole in it (and I'm not talking one car, it's a production defect on every car in the model) sure people could make it work by patching the hole or only filling the tank 1/4 of the way and filling up more, but would you call that a good and working product?  Of course not, that's ludicrous.  But that's what we have here.

Lucifier

@ Milk Jugz

Lucifier  said: check below

better way to explain general idea here is:

1- you said this is VERSUS  PVP (Player Versus Player) ( and this how versus should be)
  generally i agree with you (but they have to remove the progression rewards, and only use placement reward and change its values).

BUT

2- PVE (Player Versus Engine) why there is placement rewards, i am beating the engine, i should get the same reward as other player also beating the engine, it is not PVP (so it should not be how good are you compared to another player, it should be how good are you compare to the Engine).


SO: if all types of rewards in PVP, SHOULD be related how good are you comparing to another players, 
THEN: all types of rewards in PVE, SHOULD be how good are you comparing to the Engine.

Or both event they should have both rewards placement rewards and progression rewards (don't go down).


***************************************************************************************************************


i reach 790 point, and shielded, Great right.

hours later, i get out of shield (before the shield ends) and won one fight (+20 points) in less than 3 minutes,
just to find out i got attacked in less than 3 minutes window, and lost like 50 points.

i tried again i won another fight, i got attacked and as overall i lost more points.

P.S. I got attacked while i am in the middle of my fight. (which took me less than 3 minutes)

GREAT PROGRESSION.

Milk Jugz

Pants1000 said:

I see a lot of people defending the existing system, but there are also a lot of people that don't enjoy it.  The fact that many people don't like the current system tells me that it should be changed.  Hopefully they can come up with a compromise that gets more people playing without breaking what some people like.

So the logic of the bold statement is many people don't like the system so it should be changed.

But the observation of the italicized statement says many people like it.

So using the same logic as the bold statement: The fact that many people like the system tells me that it should NOT be changed.

As someone else in the thread said, if people have found a way to make the system work, then it should work for everybody that is willing to utilize the same strategy. A strategy that is being laid out at your feet, mind you. No one is saying I figured it out, good luck!! No, they are saying I figured it out, here is how I do it. If your not willing to follow the strategy then why should you earn the rewards?

Milk Jugz

broll said:

revskip said:

If some people have made it work for them then it works.  

...umm... let me stop you right there.  So if a car company sells a car that has a gas tank that has hole in it (and I'm not talking one car, it's a production defect on every car in the model) sure people could make it work by patching the hole or only filling the tank 1/4 of the way and filling up more, but would you call that a good and working product?  Of course not, that's ludicrous.  But that's what we have here.

Apples and oranges, man!! Nobody is patching a hole in the system, nor are they only going a 1/4 of the way!!