PvP Main Season points shouldn't decrease.

Options
24

Comments

  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    shardwick said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Pants1000 said:
    I'm curious if they'll do another win-based test this off season, and if they'll tweak anything.  Who knows, maybe in another season or two we'll end up with win-based season progression rewards.  
    More mindless grinding.......

    Why do you deserve those rewards? There are 2 other modes that give you rewards just for playing. It took me almost 2 years to build my roster to the point that I can consistently earn the 4* cover in PVP. (2 more 900s this season and it will be my first season of 900+ in every event). PVP scoring works as intended and I really, really, really hope the devs do not make progression win based. Just because it's there doesn't mean it should be handed to you.... Earn it!!!
    Except that they are earning it by putting in the time and effort to get those rewards. You act like people are doing three wins and being handed all of the rewards on a silver platter or something.
    Except you are missing my main point, there are 2 other modes for win X matches earn Y rewards. Don't take the strategy out of Versus mode.
  • shardwick
    shardwick Posts: 2,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Milk Jugz said:
    shardwick said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Pants1000 said:
    I'm curious if they'll do another win-based test this off season, and if they'll tweak anything.  Who knows, maybe in another season or two we'll end up with win-based season progression rewards.  
    More mindless grinding.......

    Why do you deserve those rewards? There are 2 other modes that give you rewards just for playing. It took me almost 2 years to build my roster to the point that I can consistently earn the 4* cover in PVP. (2 more 900s this season and it will be my first season of 900+ in every event). PVP scoring works as intended and I really, really, really hope the devs do not make progression win based. Just because it's there doesn't mean it should be handed to you.... Earn it!!!
    Except that they are earning it by putting in the time and effort to get those rewards. You act like people are doing three wins and being handed all of the rewards on a silver platter or something.
    Except you are missing my main point, there are 2 other modes for win X matches earn Y rewards. Don't take the strategy out of Versus mode.
    You should support a dual system then because it will mean a lot more people playing for wins which is more targets for you to go after. They get rewards via wins, you can still get yours with your strategy and shield hopping to 900+ without grinding for tons of wins.
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    shardwick said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    shardwick said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    Pants1000 said:
    I'm curious if they'll do another win-based test this off season, and if they'll tweak anything.  Who knows, maybe in another season or two we'll end up with win-based season progression rewards.  
    More mindless grinding.......

    Why do you deserve those rewards? There are 2 other modes that give you rewards just for playing. It took me almost 2 years to build my roster to the point that I can consistently earn the 4* cover in PVP. (2 more 900s this season and it will be my first season of 900+ in every event). PVP scoring works as intended and I really, really, really hope the devs do not make progression win based. Just because it's there doesn't mean it should be handed to you.... Earn it!!!
    Except that they are earning it by putting in the time and effort to get those rewards. You act like people are doing three wins and being handed all of the rewards on a silver platter or something.
    Except you are missing my main point, there are 2 other modes for win X matches earn Y rewards. Don't take the strategy out of Versus mode.
    You should support a dual system then because it will mean a lot more people playing for wins which is more targets for you to go after. They get rewards via wins, you can still get yours with your strategy and shield hopping to 900+ without grinding for tons of wins.

    The problem is: The people most affected by moving the 15 CP to placement only (which is high level 4* and 5* players) don't SEE these extra targets because they'll still be lower than 1K so we can't queue them.

    It's a myth that the new system will give high level players more targets, if we want 40 wins we'll have to grind it out against fellow high level players.
  • aesthetocyst
    aesthetocyst Posts: 538 Critical Contributor
    Options
    carrion pigeons said:... 

    The whole point of people wanting to overhaul pvp is that, for them, they *want* to have some strategy in their strategy game, which currently lacks it.

    Hmmm .... yes, "strategy" .... 1 win ... 2 wins ... 3 wins .....


    Developing 5 using Counting Strategies for 0–10

    Kindergarten

    Description

    Understand the relationship between numbers and quantities by counting, producing, and constructing the numbers 0–10 as well as developing 5 as a benchmark.

    http://www.nctm.org/Classroom-Resources/ARCs/Counting-Strategies/

  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
    Options
    carrion pigeons said:
    My personal experience in PvP:

    Enter the event, do the seeds.  Do one more fight against a team of 270s, get super bored, realize I have to do at least 10 more and probably more like 30 more before I get anything worthwhile at it, and quit.

    I expect that's a pretty typical experience among non-LINE players.  PvP sucks.
    I don't think not having Line is your problem. If you can't be bothered to try and fight any teams on a par with yours then you shouldn't expect to get barely any rewards.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Rod5 said:
    carrion pigeons said:
    My personal experience in PvP:

    Enter the event, do the seeds.  Do one more fight against a team of 270s, get super bored, realize I have to do at least 10 more and probably more like 30 more before I get anything worthwhile at it, and quit.

    I expect that's a pretty typical experience among non-LINE players.  PvP sucks.
    I don't think not having Line is your problem. If you can't be bothered to try and fight any teams on a par with yours then you shouldn't expect to get barely any rewards.
    I actually agree with you, in principle, but it's hard to look at the "big picture" and not find overall engagement in PVP to be low.  I'm one of the 575 & quit players, which is almost always good enough for Top 100 (i.e. better than 80% of all players in my bracket).  When I'm lazy and only hit the token at 300, that's almost always good enough for Top 200 (i.e better than 60% of all players in the bracket).  When I've hit three seeds and quit at 101, that's almost always good enough for Top 400 (i.e. better than 20% of all players in my bracket).  For the season, hitting the 10-pack at 4,000 is almost always good enough for Top 1,000-1,250 for the season (i.e. better than 75-80% of all players in my bracket)

    Meanwhile, in PVE, hitting the 8CP and stopping (which is what I normally do), is usually good enough for Top 400 (i.e better than 60% of all players in the bracket).  Full progression when I've done it, is usually good enough for Top 200-250 (i.e. better than 75-80% of all players in the bracket).  

    I'll admit, my comparisons are all purely ancedotal and based solely on CL7 or CL8-level players who pre-join brackets, but for players who are willing to put in the same effort as I am for appoximately similar rewards (575/10CP & 8CP), engagement in PVE is ~10-20% higher than it is in PVP.  That's significant, so if the dev's are seeing similar numbers from their data sets, I could see why they'd experiment with a change.
  • Lucifier
    Lucifier Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    Options
    guys it is easy and clear, for PVP there are 2 rewards:

    1- placement rewards: from its name, better players deserve it more than others.
    2- progression rewards: this need to be changed, it should not decrease our progression points by losing (or at least we should not loss points, when others attack us and we loss, "and we lose points when we attack others and we lose, to prevent purposely falling down in rank to find easy targets"), we should always have progress when we win.

    and the shield will still be needed for placements rewards (for players who are seeking it).

    if both rewards points (placement and progression) goes up and down (based if we win or loss). then ((((( I DO NO UNDERSTAND WHY THERE ARE TWO REWARD SYSTEM ))))).


    the thing is for new players or mid players, they will never or very hard (and need so long time, longer than what old players needed), to start earning good placements and progression rewards.
    because these players when they get better, the others players (who before was better than them) they also getting better (and logically the others players "older" they are getting much better, because they were getting better rewards than the average players).

    my conclusion is:

    1- the rewards should not be based only on how strong you are (although true stronger deserve better rewards, hence the placement rewards).
    2- there should be rewards for efforts you put in the game, how much time you spend, how many fights you do (this also should be rewarded (and it can help for new, mid players to catch the other players).

    an example i am at 3* land (have 8 or 9 low cover 4* char), when the time that come trying to catch the current 4* land players, they would earn much much more rewards then me (i earn x rewards/month, they might earn 2 times x or 3 times x rewards/ month), (assuming no body quit playing the game), so even when i hit the 4* land, i would still can not have good placements rewards (which is fine because i don't deserve it), but also i will not be able to make a good progression rewards (because at that time all others players get much better than me by much more) which is not fine (because all the progress that i made and still can not have better progression rewards).


    one last note: shouldn't the 800 points rewards (3* char) be easy for a 3* char land???!!!!!!!!!!!! 
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Lucifier said:
    guys it is easy and clear, for PVP there are 2 rewards:

    1- placement rewards: from its name, better players deserve it more than others.
    2- progression rewards: this need to be changed, it should not decrease our progression points by losing (or at least we should not loss points, when others attack us and we loss, "and we lose points when we attack others and we lose, to prevent purposely falling down in rank to find easy targets"), we should always have progress when we win.

    and the shield will still be needed for placements rewards (for players who are seeking it).

    if both rewards points (placement and progression) goes up and down (based if we win or loss). then ((((( I DO NO UNDERSTAND WHY THERE ARE TWO REWARD SYSTEM ))))).


    the thing is for new players or mid players, they will never or very hard (and need so long time, longer than what old players needed), to start earning good placements and progression rewards.
    because these players when they get better, the others players (who before was better than them) they also getting better (and logically the others players "older" they are getting much better, because they were getting better rewards than the average players).

    my conclusion is:

    1- the rewards should not be based only on how strong you are (although true stronger deserve better rewards, hence the placement rewards).
    2- there should be rewards for efforts you put in the game, how much time you spend, how many fights you do (this also should be rewarded (and it can help for new, mid players to catch the other players).

    an example i am at 3* land (have 8 or 9 low cover 4* char), when the time that come trying to catch the current 4* land players, they would earn much much more rewards then me (i earn x rewards/month, they might earn 2 times x or 3 times x rewards/ month), (assuming no body quit playing the game), so even when i hit the 4* land, i would still can not have good placements rewards (which is fine because i don't deserve it), but also i will not be able to make a good progression rewards (because at that time all others players get much better than me by much more) which is not fine (because all the progress that i made and still can not have better progression rewards).


    one last note: shouldn't the 800 points rewards (3* char) be easy for a 3* char land???!!!!!!!!!!!! 
    I don't agree with your conclusion that when you hit 4* land you won't be able to get the better progression rewards. I'm far behind the top players with my roster, but I hit 900+ on most events now that I've built my roster up. When you get there you will be competing with people with similar rosters. I won't be able to see you in my MMR until you hit a certain threshold, that is the point your roster can take you to. With my roster now after I cross 900 I start seeing teams I can't compete with. With a 3* roster the threshold was lower, 600 ish, I didn't play as much then.

    To your last note, 10 CP is clearly more valuable than 1 3* cover. Why the cover is @ 800 and the CP @575 I don't understand, they should be swapped. Or put the 3* cover @ 575. 10 CP @ 725, and the 50 HP @ 800.
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 585 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Lucifier said:
    guys it is easy and clear, for PVP there are 2 rewards:

    1- placement rewards: from its name, better players deserve it more than others.
    2- progression rewards: this need to be changed, it should not decrease our progression points by losing (or at least we should not loss points, when others attack us and we loss, "and we lose points when we attack others and we lose, to prevent purposely falling down in rank to find easy targets"), we should always have progress when we win.

    and the shield will still be needed for placements rewards (for players who are seeking it).

    if both rewards points (placement and progression) goes up and down (based if we win or loss). then ((((( I DO NO UNDERSTAND WHY THERE ARE TWO REWARD SYSTEM ))))).


    the thing is for new players or mid players, they will never or very hard (and need so long time, longer than what old players needed), to start earning good placements and progression rewards.
    because these players when they get better, the others players (who before was better than them) they also getting better (and logically the others players "older" they are getting much better, because they were getting better rewards than the average players).

    my conclusion is:

    1- the rewards should not be based only on how strong you are (although true stronger deserve better rewards, hence the placement rewards).
    2- there should be rewards for efforts you put in the game, how much time you spend, how many fights you do (this also should be rewarded (and it can help for new, mid players to catch the other players).

    an example i am at 3* land (have 8 or 9 low cover 4* char), when the time that come trying to catch the current 4* land players, they would earn much much more rewards then me (i earn x rewards/month, they might earn 2 times x or 3 times x rewards/ month), (assuming no body quit playing the game), so even when i hit the 4* land, i would still can not have good placements rewards (which is fine because i don't deserve it), but also i will not be able to make a good progression rewards (because at that time all others players get much better than me by much more) which is not fine (because all the progress that i made and still can not have better progression rewards).


    one last note: shouldn't the 800 points rewards (3* char) be easy for a 3* char land???!!!!!!!!!!!! 
    That is just your opinion, I disagree with most of your conclusions. 

    On your logic, as a player in 5* land shouldn't I get a 5* cover as a reward?

    We all began somewhere...and 3/4* covers are a great deal easier to get hold of than they used to be. 

    If you play hard, you will progress ahead of the curve. You can't expect it to be given to you for minimal risk.

  • Lucifier
    Lucifier Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    Options
    On your logic, as a player in 5* land shouldn't I get a 5* cover as a reward?

    this is not exactly the same, since the 5* are the current highest level of char (then no it should not be that easy),
    and on your logic, the one star char player (should not get the 1* cover easily too).

    lets assume i have many 4* char champed, well getting to 800 points  and get one extra 3* cover (it is not bad, but it is not good too, i wouldn't care much to hit 800 for one more 3* cover every 2/3 days), at that time 800 reward will not add much to me.



    That is just your opinion, I disagree with most of your conclusions.
    that is ok (that is the point of forum we share our thoughts), maybe my suggestion is not good for all, may be not accurate, but my end point, something need to change in pvp rewards.

    and i read before someone posted in the forum (i can not remember the exact words) "obviously the dev know/think something need to be changed in pvp rewards, otherwise they wouldn't tested the win number progression reward system".


    We all began somewhere...and 3/4* covers are a great deal easier to get hold of than they used to be. 
    was there 5* char when old players start playing, how many 4* char released at that time, how many 3 * char at that time.

    easy math example, lets assume there is only 1 4* char released (lets assume between 4* cover rewards and cp purchase 4*), we can get 1 4* new cover every 2 days, so in 26 days you can champ this 4* char.

    now imagine the same process with 20 4* char released, now imagine same process with 60 4* char released, and they keep releasing new char every now and then.

    generally speaking as basic math (not related to new or mid players) number of char released increased, the rewards should increase too.


    ALSO you said now 3/4* is easier to get for new players, well it is much more easier to get for old players, as long as you continue playing you are not just continue to be ahead of others, the gap between you and new/mid players will be bigger (as amount no as percentage).


    maybe new system of pvp need to be implemented, like this category only for 2*char and lower, this category for 3* and lower, and so on, here the competition will be more fair about strategy, and I (3* char land) don't have to face 4* char or 5* char, (unless i join the 4* category).
  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 966 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Ducky said:

    I think most of the vets on this board know I play solo as well, but our experience is still molded by all of those constructs that players have put in place.

    And I think the reason they moved the CP to placement is because they want people to compete for those rewards and make it actually Versus, and not Co-OP. 

    If they moved all the progression rewards from Versus (it's never actually been called PvP officially by the devs) to placement rewards, would you cry foul then? Would that then be distributing the rewards in the most "earning it" type of way?

    Edit: Fixed typos
    I would actually prefer all the progression rewards being moved to placement over the grind fest that was PVP determined by win count.  It was just another boring PVE slog.  Just against higher leveled characters.  

    The mode as it exists now is a great metric of roster strength with the added bonus of allowing for strategy and varying play styles.  You can snipe, coordinate with other snipers to suppress scores, coordinate with others for mutual benefit or simply run to the 10 CP and bail.  
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    revskip said:
    Ducky said:

    I think most of the vets on this board know I play solo as well, but our experience is still molded by all of those constructs that players have put in place.

    And I think the reason they moved the CP to placement is because they want people to compete for those rewards and make it actually Versus, and not Co-OP. 

    If they moved all the progression rewards from Versus (it's never actually been called PvP officially by the devs) to placement rewards, would you cry foul then? Would that then be distributing the rewards in the most "earning it" type of way?

    Edit: Fixed typos
    I would actually prefer all the progression rewards being moved to placement over the grind fest that was PVP determined by win count.  It was just another boring PVE slog.  Just against higher leveled characters.  

    The mode as it exists now is a great metric of roster strength with the added bonus of allowing for strategy and varying play styles.  You can snipe, coordinate with other snipers to suppress scores, coordinate with others for mutual benefit or simply run to the 10 CP and bail.  
    If they did that I think you'd see a mass exodus of many non-vets from even attempting PvP.  I certainly wouldn't even both for one.  You call win based a slog fest, grinding through 20-40 wins and still only getting T50-T100 and getting practically nothing for it.  That's my idea of fun!  Pfffftttt...
  • Lucifier
    Lucifier Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    Options

      Milk Jugz  said:

    1- I don't agree with your conclusion that when you hit 4* land you won't be able to get the better progression rewards.
    2- With a 3* roster the threshold was lower, 600 ish, I didn't play as much then.
    3-      To your last note, 10 CP is clearly more valuable than 1 3* cover. Why the cover is @ 800 and the CP @575 I don't understand, they should be swapped. Or put the 3* cover @ 575. 10 CP @ 725, and the 50 HP @ 800.

    1- i've read before in forum, advising not to open the legendary token or spend the command point, to avoid getting 5* cover, because it will cause high scaling (and they were talking about PVP not just PVE).
    someone said before he got 5* char and then he can hit like 650 in PVP (or something close) while before that he can hit 900+
    so i don't know how the matching works in PVP, i have 10 legendary and 670 CP, i am not using them right now.

    2- well then how come the 800 point reward is 3* char!!!!

    3- i agree with you, even i do not agree about 50HP, 50HP is not much of prize (a one 3* char better than 50HP at least for me).

  • Blindman13
    Blindman13 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Lucifier said:

    1- i've read before in forum, advising not to open the legendary token or spend the command point, to avoid getting 5* cover, because it will cause high scaling (and they were talking about PVP not just PVE).
    someone said before he got 5* char and then he can hit like 650 in PVP (or something close) while before that he can hit 900+
    so i don't know how the matching works in PVP, i have 10 legendary and 670 CP, i am not using them right now.
    I think you missed some details in those discussions - If you have a few 4*s above level 255, then simply rostering 5*s will not effect you in PVP. The problem comes in when people with small or low level rosters add some 5*s or level their one or two 5*s way above the rest of their roster. It just takes some common sense; you need to build your roster in a balanced way. 
  • Lucifier
    Lucifier Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    Options
    Blindman13 said:

    I think you missed some details in those discussions - If you have a few 4*s above level 255, then simply rostering 5*s will not effect you in PVP. The problem comes in when people with small or low level rosters add some 5*s or level their one or two 5*s way above the rest of their roster. It just takes some common sense; you need to build your roster in a balanced way. 


    well i don't know much about it, yet it make sense for PVE, but why for PVP???!!! for example now with 3* char i can hit 575/650 sometimes 725, well if i open my token and get 5* shouldn't i be able to still hitting 575/650 or 725, and logically i should be better, well i don't know, is this is the case now or how it works now?


  • Blindman13
    Blindman13 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Lucifier said:
    well i don't know much about it, yet it make sense for PVE, but why for PVP???!!! for example now with 3* char i can hit 575/650 sometimes 725, well if i open my token and get 5* shouldn't i be able to still hitting 575/650 or 725, and logically i should be better, well i don't know, is this is the case now or how it works now?
    There are lots of other posts discussing MMR and how it works, but in short: the points you can get in PVP are limited by the opponents you are matched against. No one knows the exact calculation, but the level of your highest leveled covers determines who you get matched up with.
    Right now you are getting matched against players with similar rosters. If your current best characters are around level 150-200 add a few 5*s to your team it will boost you up against tougher opponents. If you already have some 4*s maxed and you add 5*s it doesn't effect your rating.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2017
    Options
    Lucifier said:

      Milk Jugz  said:

    1- I don't agree with your conclusion that when you hit 4* land you won't be able to get the better progression rewards.
    2- With a 3* roster the threshold was lower, 600 ish, I didn't play as much then.
    3-  To your last note, 10 CP is clearly more valuable than 1 3* cover. Why the cover is @ 800 and the CP @575 I don't understand, they should be swapped. Or put the 3* cover @ 575. 10 CP @ 725, and the 50 HP @ 800.

    1- i've read before in forum, advising not to open the legendary token or spend the command point, to avoid getting 5* cover, because it will cause high scaling (and they were talking about PVP not just PVE).
    someone said before he got 5* char and then he can hit like 650 in PVP (or something close) while before that he can hit 900+
    so i don't know how the matching works in PVP, i have 10 legendary and 670 CP, i am not using them right now.

    2- well then how come the 800 point reward is 3* char!!!!

    3- i agree with you, even i do not agree about 50HP, 50HP is not much of prize (a one 3* char better than 50HP at least for me).

    1) 5* territory is its own beast. I'm not there yet, but from what I've gathered from other forumites and alliance mates, if you champ just one or two (especially two that don't "play" nice together) your asking for a world of hurt in Versus. I'm only taking about 4* for now. I do have a high levelish Phoenix (420 3/3/5), but I don't use her since I have so many champ 4s now, she basically carried me through the 3* and is 95% of the reason why my Versus experience at that time was not great. With a solid roster of champ 4s you can hit 900 consistently. With two 5s that play well together 1200, again only what I've gathered from alliance mates. It is possible to hit 1200 with a 4* roster but that seems to require coordination outside the game, not my cup of tea.

    2) Agree  completely, the 3* cover SHOULD be lower than 800.

    3) I agree with your assessment of the value of the HP, but I feel a lot of people will be upset about the 10 CP going to 800, so 725 seems a good plateau. And people stopping at 575 weren't getting the HP anyway. So asking them to score 150 more, while receiving a 3* cover and an additional event token to get the 10 CP seems easier than asking them to score another 225 points and getting the previous mentioned extras and 50 HP. 

    I know what 5* discussion you're referring to and you are taking it out of context.
This discussion has been closed.

Categories