Doomed to never be happy about changes ?

Daiches

Jarvind said:

They could send every player 100k ISO and 5000 HP with a note that says "this is just a thank you for being a loyal player" and people would still find a reason to piss and moan about it. 

When things aren't exactly, 100% the way people think they should be, they complain. I've found this especially true in gaming.

Actually, since you mention it.. They already did that.


They sent almost every player a million ISO when they introduced shield rank. There was no one complaining how the bill was folded.

revskip

Wumpushunter said:

There are a dozen easy solutions to dilution, vaulting and too many characters however none of them give D3, Demiurge and Marvel enough cash off the game to make them worth while.

If I can set bonus heroes as many as I want, why cant i set twenty four stars and only get from those 20? Because then I would not buy packs, I would not spend. Same with all the perfect solutions. The solution first must satisfy the pocketbook before it satisfies the addicted fan base.

Vaulting almost caused me to quit, but luckily I was far enough back that I could focus on a 2 star farm and champing 3s  to wait out vaulting. I knew eventually the vets would be getting all the 12 champed too quickly. Vaulting was doomed from the beginning. My only fear is something worse is waiting in the wings.

Pretty sure that once the newness of the change wears off you are going to realize that something worse is exactly what you got.  

Whereas before you had only twelve characters that you could draw now you have 51, about to be 52.  With many of those pulls getting you a 1/0/0 character who will only be useful for the Behemoth in DPD and a giant HP sink otherwise.  Then once you start making headway you'll end up with tons of wasted pulls with your 4*s that are "lucky" enough to get to 5/x/x and pull that 6th cover (and 7th, 8th etc).  Brute forcing a finished character with bonus heroes and hoarding is a lot less viable when you have so many characters available,  

Be careful what you wish for.  

Bruinsfan17

revskip said:

Wumpushunter said:

There are a dozen easy solutions to dilution, vaulting and too many characters however none of them give D3, Demiurge and Marvel enough cash off the game to make them worth while.

If I can set bonus heroes as many as I want, why cant i set twenty four stars and only get from those 20? Because then I would not buy packs, I would not spend. Same with all the perfect solutions. The solution first must satisfy the pocketbook before it satisfies the addicted fan base.

Vaulting almost caused me to quit, but luckily I was far enough back that I could focus on a 2 star farm and champing 3s  to wait out vaulting. I knew eventually the vets would be getting all the 12 champed too quickly. Vaulting was doomed from the beginning. My only fear is something worse is waiting in the wings.

Pretty sure that once the newness of the change wears off you are going to realize that something worse is exactly what you got.  

Whereas before you had only twelve characters that you could draw now you have 51, about to be 52.  With many of those pulls getting you a 1/0/0 character who will only be useful for the Behemoth in DPD and a giant HP sink otherwise.  Then once you start making headway you'll end up with tons of wasted pulls with your 4*s that are "lucky" enough to get to 5/x/x and pull that 6th cover (and 7th, 8th etc).  Brute forcing a finished character with bonus heroes and hoarding is a lot less viable when you have so many characters available,  

Be careful what you wish for.  

Wasn't it posted at some point in time or mentioned in some article that this game has made millions of dollars since it's release? I don't buy into this notion that all decisions are based on people not buying enough Hero Points or spending money on the VIP. Money is being made regardless. And Marvel certainly doesn't care how well this game performs. The Devs just don't seem to want us to be happy.

Spudgutter

Bruinsfan17 said:

revskip said:

Wumpushunter said:

There are a dozen easy solutions to dilution, vaulting and too many characters however none of them give D3, Demiurge and Marvel enough cash off the game to make them worth while.

If I can set bonus heroes as many as I want, why cant i set twenty four stars and only get from those 20? Because then I would not buy packs, I would not spend. Same with all the perfect solutions. The solution first must satisfy the pocketbook before it satisfies the addicted fan base.

Vaulting almost caused me to quit, but luckily I was far enough back that I could focus on a 2 star farm and champing 3s  to wait out vaulting. I knew eventually the vets would be getting all the 12 champed too quickly. Vaulting was doomed from the beginning. My only fear is something worse is waiting in the wings.

Pretty sure that once the newness of the change wears off you are going to realize that something worse is exactly what you got.  

Whereas before you had only twelve characters that you could draw now you have 51, about to be 52.  With many of those pulls getting you a 1/0/0 character who will only be useful for the Behemoth in DPD and a giant HP sink otherwise.  Then once you start making headway you'll end up with tons of wasted pulls with your 4*s that are "lucky" enough to get to 5/x/x and pull that 6th cover (and 7th, 8th etc).  Brute forcing a finished character with bonus heroes and hoarding is a lot less viable when you have so many characters available,  

Be careful what you wish for.  

Wasn't it posted at some point in time or mentioned in some article that this game has made millions of dollars since it's release? I don't buy into this notion that all decisions are based on people not buying enough Hero Points or spending money on the VIP. Money is being made regardless. And Marvel certainly doesn't care how well this game performs. The Devs just don't seem to want us to be happy.

Yes, that is the most likely reason.  Their business model is based not on finances, but soley on how bad they screw their customers. (Sarcasm)

I honestly can't tell if you were serious or not.

smkspy

With de-vaulting we just need a daily 4 star deadpool daily. That's all it boils down too. 

We got that when there was only around 30 something 3 stars, but with 50 four stars makes zero sense not to have it so we are relied on just pur rng to build these characters.

NewMcG

Bowgentle said:

Wumpushunter said:

I had no champ 4s. I still have no champ 4s. I'm elated because the 4s I wanted to get the one with the winfinites and cool team names were all vaulted.  Oh wow, riri, miles and Venom are awesome lets call them the useless ones.   No its all Peggy this, and red hulk that, iceman and prof x. All vaulted. They took out everyone of the great 4s and left us with most of the ones they had to boost to make decent.  Two of the favored 12 were just boosted because they did not match up at all with other characters.

I would rather spend 1000 more days getting characters I want, then spend then next 100 days getting the underpowered new characters they hoist upon us.

Please.
Carol is the best 4.
Agent Venom is a monster at high levels.
Riri hits like a truck and now has the HP to last longer.

Rulk got left behind by Thanos stun.
Prof X is a one-trick pony.
Peggy... eh. Not sure where she stands now.

There's a lot of good characters in the current batch.

Shhh... let the people waste time covering old, basically useless 4*s and try to play the game from 2 years ago, and then wonder why they're getting stomped. No real better way to learn how good the newer batches of characters really are than to try and keep up using the old guard.

Wumpushunter

New McG said:

Bowgentle said:

Wumpushunter said:

I had no champ 4s. I still have no champ 4s. I'm elated because the 4s I wanted to get the one with the winfinites and cool team names were all vaulted.  Oh wow, riri, miles and Venom are awesome lets call them the useless ones.   No its all Peggy this, and red hulk that, iceman and prof x. All vaulted. They took out everyone of the great 4s and left us with most of the ones they had to boost to make decent.  Two of the favored 12 were just boosted because they did not match up at all with other characters.

I would rather spend 1000 more days getting characters I want, then spend then next 100 days getting the underpowered new characters they hoist upon us.

Please.
Carol is the best 4.
Agent Venom is a monster at high levels.
Riri hits like a truck and now has the HP to last longer.

Rulk got left behind by Thanos stun.
Prof X is a one-trick pony.
Peggy... eh. Not sure where she stands now.

There's a lot of good characters in the current batch.

Shhh... let the people waste time covering old, basically useless 4*s and try to play the game from 2 years ago, and then wonder why they're getting stomped. No real better way to learn how good the newer batches of characters really are than to try and keep up using the old guard.

So how many of your old useless 4s have you sold to cover Eddie Brock and Mordo?

NewMcG

Wumpushunter said:

New McG said:

Bowgentle said:

Wumpushunter said:

I had no champ 4s. I still have no champ 4s. I'm elated because the 4s I wanted to get the one with the winfinites and cool team names were all vaulted.  Oh wow, riri, miles and Venom are awesome lets call them the useless ones.   No its all Peggy this, and red hulk that, iceman and prof x. All vaulted. They took out everyone of the great 4s and left us with most of the ones they had to boost to make decent.  Two of the favored 12 were just boosted because they did not match up at all with other characters.

I would rather spend 1000 more days getting characters I want, then spend then next 100 days getting the underpowered new characters they hoist upon us.

Please.
Carol is the best 4.
Agent Venom is a monster at high levels.
Riri hits like a truck and now has the HP to last longer.

Rulk got left behind by Thanos stun.
Prof X is a one-trick pony.
Peggy... eh. Not sure where she stands now.

There's a lot of good characters in the current batch.

Shhh... let the people waste time covering old, basically useless 4*s and try to play the game from 2 years ago, and then wonder why they're getting stomped. No real better way to learn how good the newer batches of characters really are than to try and keep up using the old guard.

So how many of your old useless 4s have you sold to cover Eddie Brock and Mordo?

Ummm... none, because I don't have any idea what that even means?

DrDevilDinosaur

Wumpushunter said:
So how many of your old useless 4s have you sold to cover Eddie Brock and Mordo?

Implying you need to sell 4*s to cover new ones.
Come on champ, is this really the hill you want to die on? Power isn't limited to a small handful of legacy 4*s. Carol is arguably the strongest in the tier, Rocket&Groot can finish matches before I've had a chance to gather the AP for their active abilities, the newly reworked RiRi is a damage dealing monster.
I've got a 0/1/0 Chulk, but if you offered me the choice between covers for him or Vulture, I'm going with the newer character.

Ayasugi-san

I've got a 0/1/0 Chulk, but if you offered me the choice between covers for him or Vulture, I'm going with the newer character.

And you're going to get covers for Vulture at several times the rate of Chulk. Meanwhile the odd Chulk cover you do draw will make him less of a dead weight when he's a required character.

NewMcG

Ayasugi-san said:

I've got a 0/1/0 Chulk, but if you offered me the choice between covers for him or Vulture, I'm going with the newer character.

And you're going to get covers for Vulture at several times the rate of Chulk. Meanwhile the odd Chulk cover you do draw will make him less of a dead weight when he's a required character.

And at half the rate you would before the un-vaulting. Plus, covering the old characters doesn't exactly make the iso problem any less. I had gone from 2/12 covered at the start of vaulting, to finishing all 12 last month, prior to Vulture entering packs. I was about to have a whole month where my only current character demanding iso was Vulture, at whatever rate I drew him, and every other pull would be a champ level or a 5*. I coudl have levelled some 5s, or a few choice 4s. Now, 20ish 4*s, (most of which were intentionally never levelled due to being not all that useful) will be popping back up on half the draws, and demand that iso if I don't want 20 CP to magically turn into 1000 iso.

Ayasugi-san

Half the rate is a good trade-off for the chance of getting the others for 20 CP as far as I'm concerned.

NewMcG

Ayasugi-san said:

Half the rate is a good trade-off for the chance of getting the others for 20 CP as far as I'm concerned.

Last month, given equal distribution, it would take you about 183 LT pulls to cover a completely uncovered 4* in the latest 12. Now, those same 183 will net you roughly 2 covers each for the "vintage 4s" and just over 6 covers of the latests. So it's over twice as many pulls to cover the Latest 12 now, and with rotation out of the Latest, then they'll move into the "1% pull rate" purgatory with every other vintage 4, with the odds getting lower with every addition to the pool. How will we not be swimming in max champed 4s at those kind of draw rates?

Ayasugi-san

New McG said:

Ayasugi-san said:

Half the rate is a good trade-off for the chance of getting the others for 20 CP as far as I'm concerned.

Last month, given equal distribution, it would take you about 183 LT pulls to cover a completely uncovered 4* in the latest 12. Now, those same 183 will net you roughly 2 covers each for the "vintage 4s" and just over 6 covers of the latests. So it's over twice as many pulls to cover the Latest 12 now, and with rotation out of the Latest, then they'll move into the "1% pull rate" purgatory with every other vintage 4, with the odds getting lower with every addition to the pool. How will we not be swimming in max champed 4s at those kind of draw rates?

Maybe I'm not thinking about max champed 4*s, I'm thinking about having as diverse a pool of 4*s as I can and taking the champ levels as they trickle in.

CNash

Easy. People defend the status quo, and vaulting was in place for long enough to become the new status quo. I guarantee you that if vaulting had been reversed within a month of its implementation, the number of people complaining would have been far fewer.

babinro

D4Ni13 said:

The latest announcement about vintage heroes earned quite a reaction. Before this, most of the people were against vaulting. Now that the vaulting is gone, they're still not happy. I think this community (or part of it) is doomed to never be happy. Usually it's ok to be sceptical, but there is a limit.

Couple things: 
1) Can you be sure that those people who were against vaulting are largely the same people against this change?  Some might be but its just as likely that a change appeals to some segments and not others depending on their playstyles and place in the game at the time of the change.

2) Vaulting isn't the best example simply because players really jumped to conclusions with this change.  You can't blame them either.   The fears going in were that we could never champion our vintage characters (which is true, that's not even remotely realistic anymore) and that the latest legends would just top out at something like 300 meaning we were left with worse champion rewards and weaker characters endlessly (WRONG!).   Also there was a big ISO expenditure backlash but everyone should have known that would resolve itself with time and it has.

What actually happened is that Vaulting leveled up latests faster than just about anyone expected.  Some free to play players who set Carol as their BH will actually fully champ her prior to rotation.  Combine this with the fact that many of the latest 4's have been genuinely excellent and viable and suddenly this previously 'terrible' change became loved by the vets that initially spoke out against it.  There was no way for us to know this latest change was actually going to be a BENEFIT for 5* players.


You can call it 'doomed to never be happy' but the fact is people jump to conclusions and aren't always right about said conclusions in the long term.  That's not to say D3 always gets it right, they certainly don't...but the players don't always get it right either.

Daredevil217

Ayasugi-san said:

New McG said:

Ayasugi-san said:

Half the rate is a good trade-off for the chance of getting the others for 20 CP as far as I'm concerned.

Last month, given equal distribution, it would take you about 183 LT pulls to cover a completely uncovered 4* in the latest 12. Now, those same 183 will net you roughly 2 covers each for the "vintage 4s" and just over 6 covers of the latests. So it's over twice as many pulls to cover the Latest 12 now, and with rotation out of the Latest, then they'll move into the "1% pull rate" purgatory with every other vintage 4, with the odds getting lower with every addition to the pool. How will we not be swimming in max champed 4s at those kind of draw rates?

Maybe I'm not thinking about max champed 4*s, I'm thinking about having as diverse a pool of 4*s as I can and taking the champ levels as they trickle in.

Absolutely this!  I want every character in the game champed. Not just the most powerful.  All 4* are useful boosted. It's not just Peggy, Bobby and Rulk.  Best believe that Punisher, Nova, Professor, Jean, Ant-Man, Chulk, etc. are beasts when boosted as well. What about healthpack miser-ing fans of true heal like me who would love a Deadpool/X-23 combo to climb with? What about Carnage who is very much a part of the meta?  Sure my vintage progress will be slow, but there will still be progress and I'll champ them as I get them. Meanwhile I'll still be able to cover/champ newer characters at an exponentially faster rate than pre-vaulting... like way faster. 

I want Vulture... I want him bad. He is likely the next great Meta character, easily top 3, and perhaps the best 4 in the game.  Yes it sucks I'll get him slower. But I will champ him eventually.  And am using bonus heroes to help move that process along.

[By the way: It makes so much more sense to use bonus heroes to round out the latest 12 than it did as the sole solution for 42 vaulted characters.]

Birdman is my top want but not at the expense of throwing away all progress on older characters. This is the best of both worlds. While I wait to get him I've still got 24 other 4* champs to play with and more coming each week.  I'm not going to cry I won't have Birdy done next week. 

Trust the process. 

CNash said:

Easy. People defend the status quo

Oh yeah, and this... so much this. I'm seeing it both with vaulting ending, and with the win-based progression rewards in PVP.

NewMcG

Daredevil217 said:

Ayasugi-san said:

New McG said:

Ayasugi-san said:

Half the rate is a good trade-off for the chance of getting the others for 20 CP as far as I'm concerned.

Last month, given equal distribution, it would take you about 183 LT pulls to cover a completely uncovered 4* in the latest 12. Now, those same 183 will net you roughly 2 covers each for the "vintage 4s" and just over 6 covers of the latests. So it's over twice as many pulls to cover the Latest 12 now, and with rotation out of the Latest, then they'll move into the "1% pull rate" purgatory with every other vintage 4, with the odds getting lower with every addition to the pool. How will we not be swimming in max champed 4s at those kind of draw rates?

Maybe I'm not thinking about max champed 4*s, I'm thinking about having as diverse a pool of 4*s as I can and taking the champ levels as they trickle in.

Absolutely this!  I want every character in the game champed. Not just the most powerful.  All 4* are useful boosted. It's not just Peggy, Bobby and Rulk.  Best believe that Punisher, Nova, Professor, Jean, Ant-Man, Chulk, etc. are beasts when boosted as well. What about healthpack miser-ing fans of true heal like me who would love a Deadpool/X-23 combo to climb with? What about Carnage who is very much a part of the meta?  Sure my vintage progress will be slow, but there will still be progress and I'll champ them as I get them. Meanwhile I'll still be able to cover/champ newer characters at an exponentially faster rate than pre-vaulting... like way faster. 

I play quite a bit. I can champ a character in about 2 weeks, give or take, depending on some small variations in iso flow. In the time vaulting existed, I got caught up on the current 12 characters last month, because it was easy to focus on a small pool. Prior to vaulting, that focus wasn't there, because the diluted packs meant you'd have way more "dead" draws, because you just can't keep up. I have about half the 4s champed. Now that the vintage 4s went back in, I went from "whatever I need to put into Vulture" to be caught back up on 4*s to "10M iso invested into mediocre to pretty bad characters" to be caught up on 4*s.

If you think you're going to "champ vintage 4*s as you get them" and have any hope of also staying on top of the newer (generally more powerful, due to power creep) 4*s, you're dreaming. Iso flow just won't let that happen, and has now sent you even further backwards in terms of "roster progress".

revskip

Daredevil217 said:

Absolutely this!  I want every character in the game champed. Not just the most powerful.  All 4* are useful boosted. It's not just Peggy, Bobby and Rulk.  Best believe that Punisher, Nova, Professor, Jean, Ant-Man, Chulk, etc. are beasts when boosted as well. What about healthpack miser-ing fans of true heal like me who would love a Deadpool/X-23 combo to climb with? What about Carnage who is very much a part of the meta?  Sure my vintage progress will be slow, but there will still be progress and I'll champ them as I get them. Meanwhile I'll still be able to cover/champ newer characters at an exponentially faster rate than pre-vaulting... like way faster. 

I want Vulture... I want him bad. He is likely the next great Meta character, easily top 3, and perhaps the best 4 in the game.  Yes it sucks I'll get him slower. But I will champ him eventually.  And am using bonus heroes to help move that process along.

[By the way: It makes so much more sense to use bonus heroes to round out the latest 12 than it did as the sole solution for 42 vaulted characters.]

Birdman is my top want but not at the expense of throwing away all progress on older characters. This is the best of both worlds. While I wait to get him I've still got 24 other 4* champs to play with and more coming each week.  I'm not going to cry I won't have Birdy done next week. 

Trust the process. 

CNash said:

Easy. People defend the status quo

Oh yeah, and this... so much this. I'm seeing it both with vaulting ending, and with the win-based progression rewards in PVP.

I disagree with your assertion mostly due to my own experience.  With vaulting in place once you've caught up on champing the 12 in packs you could target individual characters with bonus heroes and ensure near 0 waste.  I did exactly that with iceman, 4thor and wasp over the past two seasons.  

If your only goal was champing a wide roster you end up getting there with either system.  The vaulting system required that you hoard a little to get all of the magic 12 champed first but once that was done you could go wide while still getting max champs in the newer characters.  Using bonus heroes only needed 13 covers meaning with decent distribution you could get one done from 0 covers in 260-300 pulls.  And all of those pulls would be giving you champ levels in the new guys/gals.  0 wasted covers and a quick road to max champed giving you both a tall and wide roster.

The new system you can absolutely do the inverse to get your newer characters max champed but because you are pulling from such a diluted pool you are guaranteed waste and most likely a bunch of it.  

Cnash is right about people being scared of new things but I was a fan of vaulting from day 1.  Check my posts.  It made eliminating waste super easy.  

smkspy

I freely admit that I was wrong about vaulting when it happened. I was definitely against it cause at the time I had zero of the 12 champed, all my champed 4s were vaulted, and most of the 12 only had a few covers. I was sitting on like 4 carol and 3 blade covers. Peggy and Wasp were my only highly coveredcharacters at around 9 each.

Today I have a 299 carol and 299 medusa. Not only that but my resources has exploded not just from champ levels, but also from the 3 star vaulting that leveled up a great many 3s.

I'm initially against this change right now, but I will give it time. It's nice to have access to vaulted 4s again, but I think they've gone about it wrong because dilution, the major reason they vaulted in the first place, is back and 3x a chance for a latest really isn't much.

Like vaulting though, time will tell.

Edit: And I get why some people hate BH. It's pure luck and some of us were really lucky and some were unlucky. And hoarding never affected BH, that luck % reset with every pull just like 5 star percentages.