Doomed to never be happy about changes ?

D4Ni13

The latest announcement about vintage heroes earned quite a reaction. Before this, most of the people were against vaulting. Now that the vaulting is gone, they're still not happy. I think this community (or part of it) is doomed to never be happy. Usually it's ok to be sceptical, but there is a limit. 

Now both vaulting and non-vaulting have their good points and bad points. Vaulting was good for people who didn't have any 4* champ, and it helped a lot into growing some of them. I personally have 6 or 7 4* champs since vaulting, and I would probably not be here without it. Maybe vaulting was intended from the begining to be a temporary solution, and maybe non-vaulting (yesterday change) is a temporary solution as well. Why do we have to be so negative about this changes ? The devs are surely trying to make things work for most of the community, and with time I'm sure they will come with even better solutions. 

But lets face it and be objective for one second: this change is probably for the better, rather than for the worse, for the most majority of the players.  

IlDuderino

I agree and I am actually happy about this change - the first change I am happy about for ages. I think the issue is that a better solution was proposed - to have latest and vintage tokens at the relevant levels so players can choose what they want (e.g. vintage 4*s in the same token as vintage 5*s) - and this wasn't adopted

Magic

I don't really care about this change. I was skeptical about the vaulting so in general I like the solution. But the forum's reaction get's me angry. After 60 (whatever that number was) pages of complains and rage quits when vaulting was introduced I've expected a positive/neutral reaction. But no - the forum is screaming and crying again. So annoying.

I think the vaulting was bad for the meta in 4* land and this is where I play. You can see it best in the Simulator where everybody is using the same team because of powercreep and the fact that the latest 12 had more champ levels on them. I hope this update changes it a bit. 

Skrofa

A lot of the most vocal "antis" actually have a huuuuuge beef with the lack of communication before each big change.

That being said, as IlDuderino mentioned, much, much better alternatives were suggested.

They claim to value the playerbase feedback but once again their actions prove against that.

Also...

They claimed that their vaulting solution was to eliminate dilution. A lot of people didn't like it but that was their reasoning and we all learned to live with it.
They did say they were considering different approaches to resolve the various issues that arose with vaulting, while staying true to its essence. 
More suggestions were provided. A third vault. Use vintage tokens without 2*s. Many, many more...
Again, ignored.

And what do they do?
DILUTE THE TOKENS AGAIN!

Well... I think it's only logical that people would be quite vocal AGAIN!



PS. It's times like this that the bearded guy meme pops into my mind.

"I don't always do positive changes to MPQ,

But when I do I will always tinykitty something up"

Daiches

@Magic

A lot of the people that complained in the original thread then tried out how vaulting affected their roster and saw that it was actually a positive change that helped cover new character quickly, get bigger champs and so on. Doubly helped by having Carol, the best 4, grow faster, as well as Medusa.
So now that they are in the pro-vault camp, they complain from that side.

oh and the whole unannounced changes and reducing pull rate of Latest by 50% and adding a crippling extra ISO debt for many people (as well as an HP debt for newer players).

Starfury

Skrofa said:

And what do they do?
DILUTE THE TOKENS AGAIN!

Did they?

Before vaulting, chances for any pulled 4* to be a certain character were slightly above 2% and dropping further and further.
After vaulting, chances for any pulled 4* to be a certain character rose to a constant 1/12, no matter how many characters were released. However, it also meant you only ever got 12 characters.
Now, chances for any pulled 4* to be a certain character are a constant 1/24 for 12 characters and around 1% and dropping for the rest of characters.

No matter how diluted the 4* pool gets, you'll always have a viable path to champ 12 characters at any given time.

Magic

Tell you what - if they (or us - my Carol is lvl300 already thanks to vaulting) liked the vualting this should have been communicated to the devs. Say another thread 2 months after the vaulting with 45 pages of people saying they were wrong to complain and now they like it. 

I guess the devs wouldn't care either way. Maybe the HP sales for slots were down? Maybe the whales who max covered the latest 12 started to complain that non-whales with max champed 4* are challenging them? Maybe people were getting ISO-positive (staying ahead of release curve)? Whatever it was - the decision was made and "this one shall pass too". 

Me personally - I am more interested in solving the scaling issue in PvE or improving the PvP or adding new content to the game (the latest boss event was fun). Vaulting or no-vaulting - meh!

Wumpushunter

I had no champ 4s. I still have no champ 4s. I'm elated because the 4s I wanted to get the one with the winfinites and cool team names were all vaulted.  Oh wow, riri, miles and Venom are awesome lets call them the useless ones.   No its all Peggy this, and red hulk that, iceman and prof x. All vaulted. They took out everyone of the great 4s and left us with most of the ones they had to boost to make decent.  Two of the favored 12 were just boosted because they did not match up at all with other characters.

I would rather spend 1000 more days getting characters I want, then spend then next 100 days getting the underpowered new characters they hoist upon us.

Bowgentle

Wumpushunter said:

I had no champ 4s. I still have no champ 4s. I'm elated because the 4s I wanted to get the one with the winfinites and cool team names were all vaulted.  Oh wow, riri, miles and Venom are awesome lets call them the useless ones.   No its all Peggy this, and red hulk that, iceman and prof x. All vaulted. They took out everyone of the great 4s and left us with most of the ones they had to boost to make decent.  Two of the favored 12 were just boosted because they did not match up at all with other characters.

I would rather spend 1000 more days getting characters I want, then spend then next 100 days getting the underpowered new characters they hoist upon us.

Please.
Carol is the best 4.
Agent Venom is a monster at high levels.
Riri hits like a truck and now has the HP to last longer.

Rulk got left behind by Thanos stun.
Prof X is a one-trick pony.
Peggy... eh. Not sure where she stands now.

There's a lot of good characters in the current batch.

CaptainFosco

I'm disappointed. I was looking forward to Baby Groot and Vulture. They'll now take twice as long to cover. Yeah, I'll get fewer Agent Venom and Mordos, but now we have to champ everyone. I thought bonus heroes were great for vaulted characters, and that's how I finished off Cyclops, PunMax, Thor and Iceman. 

Although I must admit that my roster is such that I can do every Crash of the Titans, so I wasn't hit so hard by the vaulting. 

It would have just been so easy for them to have two tokens. One like this, one with just the latest 12. It's so simple, it just adds to the frustration. 

Crowl

IlDuderino said:

I agree and I am actually happy about this change - the first change I am happy about for ages. I think the issue is that a better solution was proposed - to have latest and vintage tokens at the relevant levels so players can choose what they want (e.g. vintage 4*s in the same token as vintage 5*s) - and this wasn't adopted

I always hated that 'solution' when people suggested it, people have different wants from 4* and 5* so tying the two together was a bad plan when the simplest option would have been bring back the original tokens alongside the latest 12 tokens.

Taking this approach would have allowed people to choose which type of 4s and 5s they wanted and it is not like the LT pages are too full when they only have a single token each on their pages unlike the 3 on most of the others.

BigrussX5

I understand you can't please everybody and I understand the largest problem with this game is that you basically have two different communities, the veteran players and the newer players. I really believe this is one of the few issues that could have been handled a lot better so that everybody from both communities could be satisfied. As a player that had just started the 3*- 4* transition, the vaulting was a huge help to me by cutting down on the total number of 4* in the pack letting me focus on building my collections a lot faster. I had 8 legendary tokens that I have been saving from previously event rewards waiting for the  vaulting of Blade so I could have higher chances of getting some of the other Newer 4* that I need. Instead 6 of the draws were "vintage" characters that are just sitting in my claim because I don't have room. Even if I did make the room, they would just taking up roster space never to be used or added to because of their lower draw odds. I really believe this could have even handled a lot better by simply adding a vintage legendary pack instead of just jamming all into one. This way the Veteran players who might be only missing one or two covers of the vintage characters can fairly draw those characters and us newer players can still focus on the newer characters first, then have the option to start working on our vintage roster too separately.  

DrDevilDinosaur

Bowgentle said:

Peggy... eh. Not sure where she stands now.

Peggy gets shredded by Grocket's Strike tiles.

Bowgentle

DrDevilDinosaur said:

Bowgentle said:

Peggy... eh. Not sure where she stands now.

Peggy gets shredded by Grocket's Strike tiles.

Ah, yes, thank you.
I knew there was something

JHawkInc

People still aren't happy because we still don't have a "perfect" sweet spot.

We had dilution, and new characters were hard to cover.

Vaulting fixed that, but made it nigh impossible to advance a significant portion of the character base.

Undoing vaulting, but with the new distinction between vintage and latest characters (with modified draw rates) takes us back to the pre-vaulting days, but makes it easier to acquire newer characters. With Bonus Heroes still in place, we have a method to take the edge off the pains of dilution.

It's still not perfect, but it's an improvement. Some people aren't going to be happy because it's so clear that there's still some work to be done. It doesn't mean we're not making progress along the way, you know?

(and that's not counting the people that are never going to be unhappy because they have unrealistic expectations to begin with; it's amazing how many people propose solutions that would discourage spending, and won't ever be considered by the devs because it would kill the business model just as much as it would make some people happy)

smkspy

Some people praise, some people complain, some people freak out, and some people offer constructive criticism. Welcome to the Internet.

And for the vast majority of us here, this is a product we pay for, you damn right we're gonna say something whenever D3 hits us with a sledgehammer.

Bruinsfan17

If they would actually listen to the player base than everyone could be happy. They need to separate Latest and Vintage and offer both at the same time. With things back the way they are, my ISO deficit just quadrupled with all the Vintage 4* back in packs. Went from only needing 2 more Latest 4* to champ to now needing to champ the 8 or 9 Vintage 4* I had at 13 covers that I just ignored when Vaulting was introduced. They better increase ISO flow now or have some double ISO events very soon otherwise I'm gonna be hoarding for a very long time trying to save up enough ISO for everyone.

mpqr7

People here sure are vocal, and that's true. We are a passionate bunch! Generally a big change like this will be good for some players and not great for others.

For me personally, I like it and prefer it over the full vaulting, because I like winning champion levels for my older 4*s and all 3*s.

I think one of the biggest issues people have is lack of advance notice. A lot of people hoard tokens and open them all on a specific day, so it's nice to give them a choice to open before or after the change, instead of just surprising them and taking away that choice.

Kishida

There's some sort of twisted amusement to be had from the Monkey's Paw-like way the devs respond to player feedback. There were probably at least a handful of better solutions (for both the players and the business) to the vaulting dilemma, but they went beyond King Solomon and full-on cleft the baby in two.

broll

So if I complain because a restaurant served me a tinykitty sandwich, they take 2 hours to make me something new and come back with a tinykitty salad I'm just supposed to be happy?

TBH part of the problem is the devs have really painted themselves into a corner by creating 3 distinct player groups with 3 distinct wants and needs.  

1. New players who need access to all characters eventually to be able to play things that have required characters.
2. 4* transition.  This group is champing through their 4*s while trying to avoid cover waste.
3. 5* players who have wildly different game play experience due to how wonky 5*s are compared to the rest.

Any change they make is likely to make one of these groups super happy and and another super angry, with the third either indifferent or siding with one of the other two.

Vaulting was good for 4* transitions, bad for new players, and good or bad for 5* based on personal preferences.
This solution is good for new players, terrible for 4* transitions, and probably good for 5* player.  That's why it's generally being better received because it's at least helping 2 of the 3.  

I was very vocal against vaulting from day 1, at first this was a knee jerk reaction that calmed as I understood the system more.  But even after I saw that it worked better for me as a 4* transition I continued to fight it because I'm someone who believes in constant improvement and fighting for others.  I should probably learn to just leave things be and only complain when it hurts my roster, but that's just not who I am.

The second major problem is this is a long-term game that people plan things out months ahead of time.  It really makes people angry when they have a good long-term plan then some comes in upturns their board on them with literally no warning.  Had they given even 24 hour warning some of us could have pulled hoards with the old system if we didn't like the changes.  It's a lack of consideration for the player base...

EDIT: The other frustration is that there were better suggestions that were ignored.  This solution itself would be pretty tinykitty good if they only applied it to Vintage and left Latest in the previous system (even if they jacked the price of of the Latest tokens).  Let people choose what is more important latest or classic.  You've already got a system set up to do exactly that but you only apply it 5* for reasons I'll never understand....

firethorne

I think a lot of it is frustration arises because better ideas exist.  And, not only do they exist, they've been suggested ad nauseum, are obvious, and continually ignored.

Vaulting worked for some people, some wanted old characters.  Obvious solution: multiple options.  Let the players choose which pool they're using. People said this the very day vaulting was implemented.

Instead, Demi has this odd curse of the monkey's paw style of enhancements, giving people what they technically asked for, but with some unnecessary and painfully obvious downside.  The latest, people clamoring for those old heroes get it.... via a big bucket of RNG, and a thorn in the side to people wanting to focus on the new 12.

It gives off the feeling Demi doesn't respect their players enough to give them agency and make their own decisions on how to build their rosters.