Vintage Characters Returning to Packs! (7/27/17)

Treras

Ruinate said:

Back to back to back changes that divide the community.  Screw the vets, help the noobs.  Screw the noobs, help the vets.  This isn't how you balance.  Keep up the good work Demiurge.

That and no warning before doing it. No chance to plan anything at all

Crowl

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

I think it is more nuanced than that, if you have a lot of champed 4s then you will hate the change when a new character enters the tokens as building those has drastically slowed, but after that you will be somewhat indifferent to the change since most covers will be usable to those rosters under either system.

The people this change really helps in the long run are those who earn enough hp to keep up with new release slots, but were not covering those new characters quickly enough to champ them before they left the latest 12, so they would just end up with an ever larger roster of incomplete characters, whereas now they can steadily work their way through champing whoever is finished next with a 14th cover waiting.

thedarkphoenix

You had to know this was coming vaulting was actually too good especially for newer and mid level players. It took me up until vaulting to fully cover most of my 4 stars. 

Now a 4 star drops and with vaulting most people have it covered if not champed in 2-3 months. I knew this system wouldn't last. If they keep going this route in another couple years everyone would have champed or fully covered everything.

Nepenthe

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

Not really, no.  I have all the 4*s champed except Sandman & Vulture, and I like the change.  Most of the people complaining don't have all the older 4*s champed yet, so they're saying this adds to the HP needed to roster them and/or the iso needed to champ them, to avoid wasting covers.

fmftint

Yoik said:

Wait. What?! I'm tired and this has confused me. I've been hoarding for quite a while.  I was aiming to blow the lot when sl leaves 4th Sept.  Probably about 4k cp and 170 odd ledge.

I would pull from the latest 25 cp a pop pile. Does this now mean that instead of the latest 12 4 stars I will be pulling from the while lot er ....54? 

Or has that not changed? or it has and there is slightly higher chance for the latest 12 from the latest pack?

I may cry whatever the answer. 

Yes ALL current 4 stars PLUS those added between now and then

dlegendary0ne

I liked the idea of being guaranteed to get new covers for the latest when they came out.  This takes that away and makes champing decisions random.  That part is bad because now you have to champ older characters to keep from wasting covers when it was just 12 before. 

Stack on top of that they release new characters waaay too fast and don't give enough iso to players to keep up with that.

Crowl

One simple tweak to this new system to redress the balance a bit better from who the change benefits, give any characters added into the tokens for that season double the chance of the other latest characters as that way people will still manage to cover the newest characters at a decent rate without flogging themselves to death in launch events.

animaniactoo

KinDM said:

Going from 0% chance of a wasted cover to about a 27% chance, unless I stop the 5* transition and focus on championing bad 4* just to not waste covers. Not too mention the lower level rewards I'll be getting on half my pulls. Can someone with the game dev team explain why you don't want veterans to keep playing past a certain point, because it's really, really confusing me. 

It's only an issue if you focus on playing that way and only that way. If you change up your strategy - and 4* champ level reward are pretty nice and will help you move along in a different way - then you'll find a path back to where you are now. It's an adjustment and maybe a temporary roadblock but not a permanent one unless you decide there is only one way you want to play the game and no others will suffice.

smkspy

Pretty much, us high level 4 star campers ( 33 four star champs currently ) just have to adjust. It'll basically mean even more hoarding and trying to champ those duds before we can pull again. My 1 character Iron Fist needing to be champed just went to 8 characters needing to be champed.

firethorne

Not the worst solution.  An order of magnitude better than vaulting.  Not the best either.  Would have preferred more player choice in the matter over the giant bag'o'RNG.  But, Frozen Throne is out soon, and I'm done caring.

animaniactoo

Nepenthe said:

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

Not really, no.  I have all the 4*s champed except Sandman & Vulture, and I like the change.  Most of the people complaining don't have all the older 4*s champed yet, so they're saying this adds to the HP needed to roster them and/or the iso needed to champ them, to avoid wasting covers.

First, let me say that I am happy to be wrong! This did happen!

Second, I think people are being fairly pessimistic about the ISO shortage. This will actually HELP my iso shortage as I am currently scrambling to champ 2 new characters who were at middling levels before I ended up with 14th tokens for both of them about a week apart. I have all the 4*s rostered, but only 5 champed. Because I have several undercovered characters, the likelihood that I will end up back in this situation is much less than it was. It is more likely that cover pulls will be spread across my undercovered characters and I will be able to push the iso as a distribution among whoever is boosted/essential that week, and whoever has the most covers. In general, that means I am much less likely to be looking at a deficit at a point where it hurts to this extent again.

Ruinate

Nepenthe said:

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

Not really, no.  I have all the 4*s champed except Sandman & Vulture, and I like the change.  Most of the people complaining don't have all the older 4*s champed yet, so they're saying this adds to the HP needed to roster them and/or the iso needed to champ them, to avoid wasting covers.

And the people who want level 370's asap.  Most 5* players should want this.  Great champ rewards and more usable characters within the 5* mmr/scaling.  370's boosted are much better than a 450 5*.

KinDM

animaniactoo said:

KinDM said:

Going from 0% chance of a wasted cover to about a 27% chance, unless I stop the 5* transition and focus on championing bad 4* just to not waste covers. Not too mention the lower level rewards I'll be getting on half my pulls. Can someone with the game dev team explain why you don't want veterans to keep playing past a certain point, because it's really, really confusing me. 

It's only an issue if you focus on playing that way and only that way. If you change up your strategy - and 4* champ level reward are pretty nice and will help you move along in a different way - then you'll find a path back to where you are now. It's an adjustment and maybe a temporary roadblock but not a permanent one unless you decide there is only one way you want to play the game and no others will suffice.

Specifically, compare the rewards to adding a champ level to a level 320 4* vs a level 270 4*. Champ rewards get bigger as they progress in levels. Either I champ those old characters, removing iso from other characters, or I don't and pulls go to waste. Either way, it is definitely slowing down the progression of pulls because the latest 12, which are all higher level than most of my legendary champs, will grow at approximately half the rates they were. I'm not sure what argument can be made that going from every cover being immediately usable to a quarter of covers not being immediately usable is a good thing, especially when a further quarter of the pulls will give on average measurably lower rewards for champion levels. It's not really about how I'm playing the game, it's more about the math behind it. More pulls > fewer pulls, and the new system will on average result in fewer pulls for my roster. 

Milk Jugz

Ruinate said:

Nepenthe said:

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

Not really, no.  I have all the 4*s champed except Sandman & Vulture, and I like the change.  Most of the people complaining don't have all the older 4*s champed yet, so they're saying this adds to the HP needed to roster them and/or the iso needed to champ them, to avoid wasting covers.

And the people who want level 370's asap.  Most 5* players should want this.  Great champ rewards and more usable characters within the 5* mmr/scaling.  370's boosted are much better than a 450 5*.

Still have BH to get those characters to 370 though

DrDevilDinosaur

I had grown to like the latest 12 system, but I understand why others didn't.
For me, the disappointment is around the fact that there was no advanced communication about this.

I was at 7/12 champed from latest, would be 6 after Vulture/Blade rotated. Now I'm going from 6 characters to pump ISO into, up to ~16. I would have liked a last hurrah on the latest 12.

I'm not looking forward to juggling covers for those vintage characters again, so I think I'll just stop playing. Well done Demiurge.

Bryan Lambert

Question. If, as we were told over and over again by folks, the Bonus Heroes system was a perfectly adequate replacement for getting covers for vaulted 4-strs unavailable any other way, shouldn't they be an even MORE adequate replacement  for getting Latest 12 covers that have just had their odds reduced by half?

Just make the new characters your BH's as soon as you can, one at a time (so I've heard), and boom, problem solved.

Ruinate

Milk Jugz said:

Ruinate said:

Nepenthe said:

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

Not really, no.  I have all the 4*s champed except Sandman & Vulture, and I like the change.  Most of the people complaining don't have all the older 4*s champed yet, so they're saying this adds to the HP needed to roster them and/or the iso needed to champ them, to avoid wasting covers.

And the people who want level 370's asap.  Most 5* players should want this.  Great champ rewards and more usable characters within the 5* mmr/scaling.  370's boosted are much better than a 450 5*.

Still have BH to get those characters to 370 though

When are we going to stop pretending BH does anything significant?  A 5% bonus isn't super meaningful when our odds were just slashed in half.  That's like saying you could just champ vaulted characters through bonus heroes.  Except way worse.

delita007

Putting a big flashing 3x odds is a bit disingenuous too. While technically on any given pull you might be 3x as likely to get a riri than a teen jean that's not really the pertinent information. What matters now is on every pull you've got a 42.5% chance to fall in the latest pool and a 42.5% chance to fall in the vintage pool. So on every pull you are just as likely to pull a vintage as a latest, there will just be less variation in the characters if you happen to fall in the latest pool.

I had really grown to enjoy the chase to champ the 12. It had turned into a end game mode of sorts in a game that makes no effort to provide any end game content on its own. Now it'll be back to wandering in the wilderness hoping to avoid the 1000 iso traps of Mr. Fantastic, Ghost Rider, etc. I was skeptical of the devs when they said vaulting would improve QoL in game, and was happy to be proven wrong. Sadly they won't stick to their own guns. You went through the misery of having everyone complain and came out the other side stronger only to immediately roll it back once the complaining finally died down.

Wumpushunter

Bryan Lambert said:

Question. If, as we were told over and over again by folks, the Bonus Heroes system was a perfectly adequate replacement for getting covers for vaulted 4-strs unavailable any other way, shouldn't they be an even MORE adequate replacement  for getting Latest 12 covers that have just had their odds reduced by half?

Just make the new characters your BH's as soon as you can, one at a time (so I've heard), and boom, problem solved.

Tricksy and well played. Very satisfying.

smkspy

Ruinate said:

Milk Jugz said:

Ruinate said:

Nepenthe said:

Wumpushunter said:

So basically if you have champed fours up the wazoo you hate the change and if have few to none you love the change, that about sum it up?

Not really, no.  I have all the 4*s champed except Sandman & Vulture, and I like the change.  Most of the people complaining don't have all the older 4*s champed yet, so they're saying this adds to the HP needed to roster them and/or the iso needed to champ them, to avoid wasting covers.

And the people who want level 370's asap.  Most 5* players should want this.  Great champ rewards and more usable characters within the 5* mmr/scaling.  370's boosted are much better than a 450 5*.

Still have BH to get those characters to 370 though

When are we going to stop pretending BH does anything significant?  A 5% bonus isn't super meaningful when our odds were just slashed in half.  That's like saying you could just champ vaulted characters through bonus heroes.  Except way worse.

BH only really worked for people that get a lot of cp and pull tokens frequently. Off the top of my head, I got moon knight, winter soldier, spider gwen to 12 covers each from an average of 5-6 cover pre BH. Plus I added about 9 levels to my champed carnage and got Drax up from 4 covers to 8.

But I pull a lot of CP from events and rewards, so on average I pull 3 LT tokens per day.

The system just wasn't made for the casual player and that's where failed.