bken1234 said: @Ohboy thanks for THAT reminder. Ugh. Worst event ever.
shteev said: bken1234 said: @Ohboy thanks for THAT reminder. Ugh. Worst event ever. Really? Worse than EC??!!!
Ohboy said: Firinmahlazer said: You said it yourself. You don't use cycling. So what's the problem? You're complaining about NOTHING. Personally I only use Drake Haven when the objective calls for cycling cards because you're right, it is an easy win. Cycling is what it is. We get a win either way. Again, what is the problem? If you want to complain about the game there is a few legitimate issues at hand that are worth being discussed. Cycling isn't one of them. The problem is that it is broken and hence a dominant strategy. As shteev says, it doesn't matter in casual play, but when stakes are high... It forces you to play in that style because to do otherwise is insanely bad value. Consider runaway carriage that wasn't a big problem until the Saheeli event. Suddenly it was runaway carriage deck or lose Saheeli.
Firinmahlazer said: You said it yourself. You don't use cycling. So what's the problem? You're complaining about NOTHING. Personally I only use Drake Haven when the objective calls for cycling cards because you're right, it is an easy win. Cycling is what it is. We get a win either way. Again, what is the problem? If you want to complain about the game there is a few legitimate issues at hand that are worth being discussed. Cycling isn't one of them.
shteev said: madwren said: I have said this before, but one has to wonder if, faced with community outcry against Baral, the developers decided to be more subtle this time around. "Let's just make it an overpowered mechanic the AI can't play, then people won't mind". People like their easy buttons. If that was the case, I'd expect the best cycling cards to be mythic... but they're not, they're only rare. It's not just the toxic elite who find it easy to pick up rares these days.
madwren said: I have said this before, but one has to wonder if, faced with community outcry against Baral, the developers decided to be more subtle this time around. "Let's just make it an overpowered mechanic the AI can't play, then people won't mind". People like their easy buttons.
Firinmahlazer said: Ohboy said: Firinmahlazer said: You said it yourself. You don't use cycling. So what's the problem? You're complaining about NOTHING. Personally I only use Drake Haven when the objective calls for cycling cards because you're right, it is an easy win. Cycling is what it is. We get a win either way. Again, what is the problem? If you want to complain about the game there is a few legitimate issues at hand that are worth being discussed. Cycling isn't one of them. The problem is that it is broken and hence a dominant strategy. As shteev says, it doesn't matter in casual play, but when stakes are high... It forces you to play in that style because to do otherwise is insanely bad value. Consider runaway carriage that wasn't a big problem until the Saheeli event. Suddenly it was runaway carriage deck or lose Saheeli. I don't disagree that it is a powerful strategy. I'm sure if you wanted you could cycle your way through the entire ToZ. And I'm sure you could make powerful cycling decks in every PvP node. What I don't think you can do is make powerful cycling decks in PvP and make a perfect score. So if all you're doing is winning matches there's going to be someone out there who's building event decks and will out score you which should be fairly easy if that person is facing cycling decks that the AI can't use effectively. Which again begs the question, what are we complaining about?
Ohboy said: Firinmahlazer said: Ohboy said: Firinmahlazer said: You said it yourself. You don't use cycling. So what's the problem? You're complaining about NOTHING. Personally I only use Drake Haven when the objective calls for cycling cards because you're right, it is an easy win. Cycling is what it is. We get a win either way. Again, what is the problem? If you want to complain about the game there is a few legitimate issues at hand that are worth being discussed. Cycling isn't one of them. The problem is that it is broken and hence a dominant strategy. As shteev says, it doesn't matter in casual play, but when stakes are high... It forces you to play in that style because to do otherwise is insanely bad value. Consider runaway carriage that wasn't a big problem until the Saheeli event. Suddenly it was runaway carriage deck or lose Saheeli. I don't disagree that it is a powerful strategy. I'm sure if you wanted you could cycle your way through the entire ToZ. And I'm sure you could make powerful cycling decks in every PvP node. What I don't think you can do is make powerful cycling decks in PvP and make a perfect score. So if all you're doing is winning matches there's going to be someone out there who's building event decks and will out score you which should be fairly easy if that person is facing cycling decks that the AI can't use effectively. Which again begs the question, what are we complaining about? Yes your statement does indeed beg the question. The premise is erroneous , which led you down to the wrong conclusion. You can make powerful pvp cycling decks that outclasses any other deck type you might have otherwise chosen, and go for that perfect score. Cycling allows you to control the flow of the game to your whim. I could for example in the red node of firf(the one that requires greatest precision of the four) just run 1 vehicle, 1 burn spell and cycling cards. Splash white to lock down opponent with cast out and you can slowly cycle through your deck multiple times to get 5 copies of your chosen vehicle while burning yourself down to 20.It's the optimal path to a perfect score. Few people would do it because each game would take the better part of an hour, and it's boring as hell. But add in a valuable reward, and everyone starts doing it. Boom 50 way ties with perfect scores again. And we're all held prisoner by it. To not use a cycle deck would be giving up on the reward. What threw you off I think was all the talk about cycling combos. New Perspectives, drake Haven and their ilk make cycling more efficient and powerful... But they're not necessary to make a potent cycle deck that is flexible enough across 5 colors to meet any objective other than a currently non existent "use less than 2 cycle cards" objective.
Dodecapod said: Some of the comments defending cycling's current form essentially recommend not playing those decks if someone doesn't like them, but that misses the point; I no longer recall which thread it was in or who posted it, but there was an insightful comment at one point comparing cycling decks to the surge of cheating that occurred late last year and throughout the first few months of this year. "If you don't like cheating because it's boring, don't do it, but don't try to restrict other players' options to do so themselves" wouldn't have been a convincing argument in that case, and it isn't any more persuasive in this case either. As long as PvP competition exists in any form, the (best) options available to some players affect the outcomes for every player, and currently cycling renders winning while accomplishing virtually any objective against virtually any opponent far too trivial from a PvP standpoint.
Mainloop25 said:I think you are referring to the comment I made about a month ago when this topic first came up. Since I don't see them making changes to cycling anytime soon, I've resigned myself to accepting that people will do what it takes to win, and if there was an auto-win button built into the game, people would press it more often than not.
andrewvanmarle said: Dodecapod said: Some of the comments defending cycling's current form essentially recommend not playing those decks if someone doesn't like them, but that misses the point; I no longer recall which thread it was in or who posted it, but there was an insightful comment at one point comparing cycling decks to the surge of cheating that occurred late last year and throughout the first few months of this year. "If you don't like cheating because it's boring, don't do it, but don't try to restrict other players' options to do so themselves" wouldn't have been a convincing argument in that case, and it isn't any more persuasive in this case either. As long as PvP competition exists in any form, the (best) options available to some players affect the outcomes for every player, and currently cycling renders winning while accomplishing virtually any objective against virtually any opponent far too trivial from a PvP standpoint. I'm'going to have to correct you on this: cheating and cycling is a faulty comparison on many levels, but lets stick to gameplay. All themultiplayer events wether pvp or pve have secondary objectives, cycling decks dont meet those objectives. so a player may win games but the will LOSE the competition. Cheating was a problem in QB, where there were no objectives and the winner was the one who got the most points the quickest.cheating won't even work in these formats.you DO NOT need a cycling deck to be competetive in anyway. Anyone telling you that is either ignorant or a liar, you need decks that meet the objectives and requirements of the event.So yes, if you don't'like cycling, then don't'play a cycling deck. It will not make ANY difference for the competition.
Ohboy said: I've been basically conceding those events to try fun decks so I don't get bored.
Firinmahlazer said:What I don't think you can do is make powerful cycling decks in PvP and make a perfect score.
Gunmix25 said: 4. Relax... it is just a game.
Gunmix25 said: 1. That cycling brings a flood of lower and newer players competing against the "toxic elite," ( @shteev great moniker by the way) thusly narrowing the odds of reaching the top spot? Seems silly as the D-3lite (pun intended) coalitions always top the charts and everyone knows they abuse whatever power combo is out there and are not about to change that. So in essence, if one player is doing this to gain the ranking spot.... so is another. So either a larger pool of competition is the complaint or the toxic elite are unhappy to share space with the lower riff raff like us.
Gunmix25 said: The cycling of Drakes of Life/damage does not nor will it impede ones position in the rankings.
Dodecapod said:... Snip... Also, while this doesn't inherently invalidate the rest of the argument, poisoning the well by suggesting that someone asserting a given view is either "ignorant or a liar" is unnecessary. ...... Snip...... In all honesty, I would welcome a few examples of someone achieving 95% ribbons or better on average across the last several Standard events without using many (or ideally any) cycling cards, since that would suggest a healthier diversity of tier 1 options than I had previously believed to be available. However, I'm not personally familiar with those examples, whereas I am familiar with multiple examples of 95+% scores using cycling cards and/or decks extensively, so right now I have no reason to assume other approaches can keep up with cycling to any meaningful degree.As it stands, cycling cards make up less than 5% of Standard-legal options available, and at least from the top-tier decks I'm familiar with (which isn't to say all top-tier decks in existence, but neither is my exposure limited to a trivial range of decks either), they're statistically overrepresented by an overwhelming margin compared to that percentage.