Unpopular Opinion: Needs cycling a nerf?

Laeuftbeidir

So - this will probably an unpopular opinion and I can already see the comments that will be coming...so I tried to take the expected comments already as options into the poll.

I personally have mixed feelings about cycling.

It is great for situational cards (especially support destruction), that you can just "trade" for another card if you don't need them. It makes my decks more consistent, especially in hard PVE fights. The effects triggered when you cycle  *by the cards you cycle* are great: Shefet Monitor is probably the best example. Also some effects by creatures like -1/-1 counters are surprisingly well integrated and useful.


The problems I see with cycling:
Faith of the Devoted / Drakes Haven
I think it is not necessary to explain the strategy behind those two. Decks relying on one of those cards are incredible boring to face, easy, but totally boring wins. Free points for any player facing them. Playing them is even worse (just google carpal tunnel syndrome).Yes, I know "then don't use them" - that's what I already do. If the AI would be able to cycle (great job by the way: introduce a mechanic the AI can't use at all) the outcry about how ridiculous overpowered the mechanic is would be..Baral².
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In the current meta, you only need 1 rare (one!) and a couple of uncommons/commons to be competitive in every PVP / PVE event event in Platinum (each node can be played by a blue-ish Planeswaker) , as well as being able to win in the third node of ToZ (what should be considered "end-game content". I didn't care that I wasn't able to compete in A's Madness when I started - it motivated me to get better). This will stick with us until AMK rotates out if no change is done.

It's not that I would be angry that even new players have a chance to be competitive..but in my eyes, it takes away the incentive to even think about strategies as well as the "thrill" to be in Platinum (if I wouldn't want to be challenged, I'd have stayed in Silver or Gold). I'm just glad I only face around 30-40% cycling decks in events. 
The only thing that prevents us from facing exclusively the same cycle decks is, how boring and time-consuming the combo is.


In my eyes, the possible solutions would be to:
- get rid of the two supports making this mechanic ridiculous. I don't see how these cards could be nerfed at all
- or to change the cycle costs. The cycling lands with 3 mana seems to be fair priced (in this case New Perspectives should be nerfed so it gives at least 1 mana less than the normal cycling costs)
- I stand alone with my opinion / people will get bored of it nevertheless

/E: Sorry; should have implemented "Teach the AI how to cycle and see what happens" as an option...Shame on me

Thuran

I am the neutral opinion

Picked neutral option, since the poll makes it impossibile to select "nerf new perspectives without changing cycling costs across the board"

PS: @Brigby Any news on whether Shefet monitor is going to be fixed anytime soon? The card is STILL bugged to require 8 mana, in spite the card listing "cycle 6"!  
After almost 2 months since AKH was released...

babar3355

Change cycle costs & nerf new Perspectives

Yeah, I think you made this poll too broad for the options allowed. 

Anyway, I think the fix would be to increase cycling costs.  Cycling 1 in paper is much more costly than cycle 1 in PQ.  They typically recognize this inflated mana bias, but in this case they just ignored it.  If cycling was scaled like other mana costs in PQ then we would have much less of a problem.  I actually don't have drake haven but I don't really think it needs a nerf, it should just be harder to cycle continuously.

Edit: Oh god, if the AI cycled well 90% of the players would have quit in the last month or so.  Baral 2.0 indeed.

Laeuftbeidir

both 1 & 2

@babar3355
yeah, should have added more options for several combinations, I'll give you that! Thanks for the feedback..good point with the inflated mana bias, btw, that would have been a very good attempt to put that topic into perspective!

Corn_Noodles

I am the neutral opinion

I think an easy way to "fix" cycling without touching cycling at all, is to add another set of bonus ribbons to each encounter in events where you have to cycle x or less cards (or no cards at all) to get the bonus.

Theros

It is perfect as it is

Why do you want lower ranked players of their more reliable tools to be remotely competitive?
To me it fine as it is.The AI isn't using it so that should not be a problem to anyone.
Not everyone finds cycling boring. If you do, build something different and challenge yourself.
Considering the restriction with standard, cycling the only way for me at least to beat 3.X, not event consistently. Pretty sure may players are in the same boat.
Rishcar's expertise + post nerf Baral is the most broken combination flying under the radar in this meta and no one mentions. 

bk1234

No need to do anything: people will get bored of it

Cycling doesn't affect any of us when we against AI and I only have one cycling deck (if you can call it that -- it has 3 cycling cards in it) so I picked the last option. As it always goes with this game, something new and crazy will come out and people will move on -- or they will bore themselves into quitting and we will be left with those who had the wisdom to explore everything that is wild and wonderful about Standard outside of cycling. 

In other words, I didn't vote my option, rather I made a measured prediction based on the historiography of MTGPQ. 

shteev

both 1 & 2

'People will get bored of it' is no reason to leave an unbalanced mechanic in the game. You wait until there's a prize like Rishkar's Expertise up for grabs again in a tournament... there will be a marked drop in people who are bored of it then.

shteev

both 1 & 2

MADAFAKA said:

Rishcar's expertise + post nerf Baral is the most broken combination flying under the radar in this meta and no one mentions. 

Have a look back over the forums... we did complain, endlessly, about these two cards. the thing is, tho, there comes a point where you're just flogging a dead horse, and you shut up about it because it's clear that no action will be taken.

[edit] Also... um.. you can start that thread, you know?

qwerty

Change cycle costs & nerf new Perspectives

I think New Perspectives is he one card that makes cycling so OP, just for the test of it I managed to get from 50 to 1512 drakes in ONE TURN! And the game crashed. It was no problem to cycle to infinity. 
Here is the last saved screen shot:

Furks

Change cycle costs & nerf new Perspectives

New perspectives is the engine driving the cycle combo. Its reads very similar to baral 1.0: draw a card when you do x, when you draw a card of type x, gain mana. Look out for a card like this in the future and you can be sure it'll break the game one way or another. 

Theros

It is perfect as it is

 There is nothing wrong with standard. But limited card options, combined with abysmal drop/dupes and ridiculousness of node 3.X make people people default to the most efficient way possible, that is cycling. It's all D3's fault. No one would like to spend 10 to 30 minutes a node if better options were available or things weren't so hard(unless you spend as in p2w).
In trial of planes many people use cycling. I do in response to pig, olivia ulrich and all other brokenness.
D3 has already said that it was to complicated to to tweak card due to balance issues and main reason why standard was introduced in the first place.

Laeuftbeidir

both 1 & 2

@Corn Noodles:  Love the idea - won't be happening. But I did not think of that one!

MADAFAKA said:

Why do you want lower ranked players of their more reliable tools to be remotely competitive?
To me it fine as it is.The AI isn't using it so that should not be a problem to anyone.
Not everyone finds cycling boring. If you do, build something different and challenge yourself.
Considering the restriction with standard, cycling the only way for me at least to beat 3.X, not event consistently. Pretty sure may players are in the same boat.

This is the kind of argument I did excpect, gave an option to vote for and directly answered in the original post. To the questions: I don't and I do. 
I do not expect that this thread might lead to a total nerf of cycling, no matter what the outcome of this poll might be..but it might provide some interesting feedback. 

bken1234 said:

 As it always goes with this game, something new and crazy will come out and people will move on -- or they will bore themselves into quitting and we will be left with those who had the wisdom to explore everything that is wild and wonderful about Standard outside of cycling. 

In other words, I didn't vote my option, rather I made a measured prediction based on the historiography of MTGPQ. 

This is pretty much what I excpect to happen...why do you have to point out the hard truth

couldn't agree more with @shteev ; @qwerty - what the actual...! How bad is the pain in your fingers?

Tilwin90

No need to do anything: people will get bored of it

I already stopped playing the combo wherever I can and switched to more fun decks like Ajani2 embalm. I still occasionally use cycling against absurd decks (Gods or Samut) or where there are ridiculous side objectives...

madwren

I have said this before, but one has to wonder if, faced with community outcry against Baral, the developers decided to be more subtle this time around. "Let's just make it an overpowered mechanic the AI can't play, then people won't mind".

People like their easy buttons.

rafalele

It is perfect as it is

I don't understand the problem with cycling.

It is not as Baral, as IA cannot play it.

If you have Olivia, you don't use it? if you have the pig, you don't use it? Do the same question with any amazing mythic or masterpiece and tell me your answer.

If you get bored of something don't use it but let the rest of us to make our choice.

What is really boring is trying to cast 5 vehicles in an enraged event or win against mega, super, absurd bosses with 300, 400 or 500hp.

shteev

both 1 & 2

madwren said:

I have said this before, but one has to wonder if, faced with community outcry against Baral, the developers decided to be more subtle this time around. "Let's just make it an overpowered mechanic the AI can't play, then people won't mind".

People like their easy buttons.

If that was the case, I'd expect the best cycling cards to be mythic... but they're not, they're only rare. It's not just the toxic elite who find it easy to pick up rares these days.

Firinmahlazer

It is perfect as it is

You said it yourself. You don't use cycling. So what's the problem? You're complaining about NOTHING. Personally I only use Drake Haven when the objective calls for cycling cards because you're right, it is an easy win. Cycling is what it is. We get a win either way. Again, what is the problem? If you want to complain about the game there is a few legitimate issues at hand that are worth being discussed. Cycling isn't one of them.

Ohboy

both 1 & 2

Firinmahlazer said:

You said it yourself. You don't use cycling. So what's the problem? You're complaining about NOTHING. Personally I only use Drake Haven when the objective calls for cycling cards because you're right, it is an easy win. Cycling is what it is. We get a win either way. Again, what is the problem? If you want to complain about the game there is a few legitimate issues at hand that are worth being discussed. Cycling isn't one of them.

The problem is that it is broken and hence a dominant strategy. As shteev says, it doesn't matter in casual play, but when stakes are high... It forces you to play in that style because to do otherwise is insanely bad value. 

Consider runaway carriage that wasn't a big problem until the Saheeli event. Suddenly it was runaway carriage deck or lose Saheeli. 

Steeme

The entire block is balanced around the handful of key cycling cards.  If you modify those cards, the events need to be retuned.  The better solution is what Corn Noodles suggested, make some of the PvP objectives restrict cycling.  Perfect scores would then require non-cycling decks.

bk1234

No need to do anything: people will get bored of it

@Ohboy thanks for THAT reminder. Ugh. Worst event ever.