How much feedback is necessary?

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Comments

  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    broll said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    What I really like about vaulting is that beforehand I always felt like I was in this perpetual state of catching up, and always a bit behind those who started a year before me.  Now I feel as if the playing field has been leveled and I'm being equally rewarded for my current efforts without being hurt as much by the time I missed out on for that first year that I wasn't playing.
    That's super interesting because I feel the exact inverse.  Before I was making steady and fairly even progress on all characters and able to focus on the best ones.  Now I feel like I'm on a constant treadmill with a glass wall at the end the keeps me from ever catching those who came before me.  And I'm leveling more often than not based on dates and availability vs utility.
    Honestly, this is the thing that's going to scupper people.
    Next week Peggy Carter is boosted, one of the best 4*s going. She's vaulted. Anyone who hadn't managed to champ her before her vaulting is going to have such a hard time in PvP.

    Sure it's a lot easier to get the new characters up and running, and I do appreciate that. It's nice having a character come out and then within a couple of months they're champed and usable as opposed to the old system whereby I still don't have 13 covers for Moonknight yet...and only got more recently due to a couple of daily rewards.

    The problem is older 4*s are still really useful. And now there's no real way to get them effectively. 3* champ rewards take a long time and only give you 3 covers. Bonus heroes are too random and, again, slow.

    I've said before, people like me who champed or 13-covers all the vaulted heroes benefit from vaulting, but anyone else really suffers. And I'm absolutely in the minority here.
    But this problem is not based in reality.  Peggy was in tokens for a season or two, and has been out for two or three seasons?  I'm not sure on the exact dates and honestly it doesn't matter.  The facts of the situation are that people earned FAR more covers for her while she was in tokens than they ever would have should vaulting have never been implemented.  So this complaint of "it's not fair to those who didn't cover her" is bogus - they never would have covered her anyway, and in fact - there are actually MORE covers of her in circulation because of this change than there ever would have been without.  ESPECIALLY if you consider BH as several people tagged her as their only BH from day 1.

    Players that started later will always be at a disadvantage from lack of diversity, but as long as power creep exists and the newer characters are on average better than the older characters these newer players will be in a better position for success post-vaulting than prior.
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    animaniactoo said:
    I hear you - that was a rather nonsensical thing to promise. On the flip side, you have to remember that when they discuss feedback, they don't just mean here in the forum - they're talking an aggregate of forum comments, survey polling (the ones that pop-up in game), and CS tickets/complaints. We don't have any idea what they've gathered from those realms (although tbh I can't imagine it would be much different, or it would fall into one of two categories 1) not an invested enough player to find the forums and complain or 2) not bothered enough to take the action of filing a CS ticket, etc.), but the great likelihood is that they're weighing the number of complaints from all of those against the entire customer base and it's not "as big" of an issue for them when weighed that way.

    I did dig up the other thread I was talking about - it was an idea being tossed around here, but seemed like there was some interest from slightly higher up about it. Linking to the page where it gets into that.

    I agree and was aware of the various forums of feedback they can get that would be superior to a relatively small and non-representative forum base...  I persisted because the request for more feedback was made specifically on the forums, its the audience that they targeted by the request...


    I think its pretty clear whats done when they actually want feedback, look at the detailed survey with free text responses posted with links outside this forum about scaling...     Look at the lack of detailed info gathering about vaulting...  They never actually wanted player feedback, and shouldn't have made it sound like they did...  I'm sure they wanted metrics and to see players reactions.

  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    MissChinch said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Honestly, this is the thing that's going to scupper people.
    Next week Peggy Carter is boosted, one of the best 4*s going. She's vaulted. Anyone who hadn't managed to champ her before her vaulting is going to have such a hard time in PvP.

    Sure it's a lot easier to get the new characters up and running, and I do appreciate that. It's nice having a character come out and then within a couple of months they're champed and usable as opposed to the old system whereby I still don't have 13 covers for Moonknight yet...and only got more recently due to a couple of daily rewards.

    The problem is older 4*s are still really useful. And now there's no real way to get them effectively. 3* champ rewards take a long time and only give you 3 covers. Bonus heroes are too random and, again, slow.

    I've said before, people like me who champed or 13-covers all the vaulted heroes benefit from vaulting, but anyone else really suffers. And I'm absolutely in the minority here.


    I appreciate you voicing your opinion, it seems less common for people to provide a counter view to a change they personally benefit from, and vice versa...  Kinda why I made it a point to mention I thought dropping roster based scaling was a positive move despite a reduction in rewards for me personally.  Objectivity is in short supply, and despite a singular instance I can point to, I'm sure I'm just as guilty as most.


    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone of consequence is listening, and we'll have to wait and let slow power creep devalue the 4* tier to the point where its made more available before getting some of these retired heroes adequately covered and leveled.

    Definitely what fuels my urge to understand those who don't benefit from vaulting is in my sig and my avatar.

    I freakin love Lady Thor. I love her design, I love her personality and her comics have been just amazing. But I can't reliably get covers for her in game. I mean, she's not top tier 4* any more, but that's not the point.

    If there was a character I was a HUGE fan of and found "Oh...there's no realistic way to get that character" there goes a big chunk of your motivation when starting the game. If you're in 2* or 3* land, looking forwards to the future "One day, I'll be able to use THAT guy!" and you find out that guy is vaulted...what's your ultimate goal then?

    See, the devs said they wanted to fix the dillution issue with 4*s, and this absolutely does that. I'm able to champ newer 4*s within weeks instead of waiting a year. But...this fixes one problem by creating another which is in some ways worse. Instead of RNG dictating whether you're lucky enough to get a Rocket & Groot or *yet another* Invisible Woman, you now cannot get those few Jean Grey covers you needed, or that one Hulkbuster Red so you could, out of frustration, just buy the last ones you needed to finally champ him.

    I have nothing but sympathy for the newer starters. Doesn't benefit me that they can't get these old covers. I feel sorry that they cant get that character they really like.
    Sigh.  At least be honest.  It's very easy to get those few last covers with BH now.  What you can't easily do now (not like it was really all that easy before either, but whatever) is get those last 4-5 covers for 4-5 different characters.

    If it's one or two characters that someone is really in love with BH actually makes it easier than under the old system.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    JHawkInc said:
    Bonus Heroes being good is not an excuse for Vaulting being horrible.

    They are two entirely separate systems, and the idea that acquiring a couple covers of a single character is a little easier now does not validate making another 30 characters near impossible to acquire.
    They could have been released separately, but they werent. it's totally valid to compare the entire current system with the entire previous system, because those are the systems we've actually been given.

    It's true that BH could have been released by itself, but at this stage that's purely hypothetical and frankly besides the point. Automatically receiving a cover for my favourite character at he beginning of every day wout be great too, but it's not what we got and saying that it's 'better than vaulting' is of no use to anyone.
  • SpringSoldier
    SpringSoldier Posts: 265 Mover and Shaker
    The current vaulting system won't be changed unless the Heroes for Hire store stops bringing in money. Dilution could've been fixed by creating more tokens (vintage, classic, latest, heroes, villains, Avengers, X-Men etc). It's still not too late for the devs to implement that and leave HFH for those who want to champ a character because they have covers ready to expire.
  • animaniactoo
    animaniactoo Posts: 486 Mover and Shaker
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    MissChinch said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Honestly, this is the thing that's going to scupper people.
    Next week Peggy Carter is boosted, one of the best 4*s going. She's vaulted. Anyone who hadn't managed to champ her before her vaulting is going to have such a hard time in PvP.

    Sure it's a lot easier to get the new characters up and running, and I do appreciate that. It's nice having a character come out and then within a couple of months they're champed and usable as opposed to the old system whereby I still don't have 13 covers for Moonknight yet...and only got more recently due to a couple of daily rewards.

    The problem is older 4*s are still really useful. And now there's no real way to get them effectively. 3* champ rewards take a long time and only give you 3 covers. Bonus heroes are too random and, again, slow.

    I've said before, people like me who champed or 13-covers all the vaulted heroes benefit from vaulting, but anyone else really suffers. And I'm absolutely in the minority here.


    I appreciate you voicing your opinion, it seems less common for people to provide a counter view to a change they personally benefit from, and vice versa...  Kinda why I made it a point to mention I thought dropping roster based scaling was a positive move despite a reduction in rewards for me personally.  Objectivity is in short supply, and despite a singular instance I can point to, I'm sure I'm just as guilty as most.


    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone of consequence is listening, and we'll have to wait and let slow power creep devalue the 4* tier to the point where its made more available before getting some of these retired heroes adequately covered and leveled.

    Definitely what fuels my urge to understand those who don't benefit from vaulting is in my sig and my avatar.

    I freakin love Lady Thor. I love her design, I love her personality and her comics have been just amazing. But I can't reliably get covers for her in game. I mean, she's not top tier 4* any more, but that's not the point.

    If there was a character I was a HUGE fan of and found "Oh...there's no realistic way to get that character" there goes a big chunk of your motivation when starting the game. If you're in 2* or 3* land, looking forwards to the future "One day, I'll be able to use THAT guy!" and you find out that guy is vaulted...what's your ultimate goal then?

    See, the devs said they wanted to fix the dillution issue with 4*s, and this absolutely does that. I'm able to champ newer 4*s within weeks instead of waiting a year. But...this fixes one problem by creating another which is in some ways worse. Instead of RNG dictating whether you're lucky enough to get a Rocket & Groot or *yet another* Invisible Woman, you now cannot get those few Jean Grey covers you needed, or that one Hulkbuster Red so you could, out of frustration, just buy the last ones you needed to finally champ him.

    I have nothing but sympathy for the newer starters. Doesn't benefit me that they can't get these old covers. I feel sorry that they cant get that character they really like.
    Sigh.  At least be honest.  It's very easy to get those few last covers with BH now.  What you can't easily do now (not like it was really all that easy before either, but whatever) is get those last 4-5 covers for 4-5 different characters.

    If it's one or two characters that someone is really in love with BH actually makes it easier than under the old system.
    Not for nothing... but that actually doesn't work out as easily as you're putting out here. First you have to be lucky enough to get the bonus hero triggered, and then you have to hope that it's not one of the colors you already have 5 of. I had 3* thanos as my BH because I wanted to get him finished... and for weeks it seemed impossible to get anything other than a purple cover for him when I had him 4/5/3. And that was with him being in the packs as well. I sold off at least 5 covers because they were about to expire.

    Combine that with vaulting and tokens that are harder to come by to start with... it could take a frustratingly long time to get that character to a useable state. In the "Oh geez, this isn't even worth it" kind of way.
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    animaniactoo said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    MissChinch said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Honestly, this is the thing that's going to scupper people.
    Next week Peggy Carter is boosted, one of the best 4*s going. She's vaulted. Anyone who hadn't managed to champ her before her vaulting is going to have such a hard time in PvP.

    Sure it's a lot easier to get the new characters up and running, and I do appreciate that. It's nice having a character come out and then within a couple of months they're champed and usable as opposed to the old system whereby I still don't have 13 covers for Moonknight yet...and only got more recently due to a couple of daily rewards.

    The problem is older 4*s are still really useful. And now there's no real way to get them effectively. 3* champ rewards take a long time and only give you 3 covers. Bonus heroes are too random and, again, slow.

    I've said before, people like me who champed or 13-covers all the vaulted heroes benefit from vaulting, but anyone else really suffers. And I'm absolutely in the minority here.


    I appreciate you voicing your opinion, it seems less common for people to provide a counter view to a change they personally benefit from, and vice versa...  Kinda why I made it a point to mention I thought dropping roster based scaling was a positive move despite a reduction in rewards for me personally.  Objectivity is in short supply, and despite a singular instance I can point to, I'm sure I'm just as guilty as most.


    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone of consequence is listening, and we'll have to wait and let slow power creep devalue the 4* tier to the point where its made more available before getting some of these retired heroes adequately covered and leveled.

    Definitely what fuels my urge to understand those who don't benefit from vaulting is in my sig and my avatar.

    I freakin love Lady Thor. I love her design, I love her personality and her comics have been just amazing. But I can't reliably get covers for her in game. I mean, she's not top tier 4* any more, but that's not the point.

    If there was a character I was a HUGE fan of and found "Oh...there's no realistic way to get that character" there goes a big chunk of your motivation when starting the game. If you're in 2* or 3* land, looking forwards to the future "One day, I'll be able to use THAT guy!" and you find out that guy is vaulted...what's your ultimate goal then?

    See, the devs said they wanted to fix the dillution issue with 4*s, and this absolutely does that. I'm able to champ newer 4*s within weeks instead of waiting a year. But...this fixes one problem by creating another which is in some ways worse. Instead of RNG dictating whether you're lucky enough to get a Rocket & Groot or *yet another* Invisible Woman, you now cannot get those few Jean Grey covers you needed, or that one Hulkbuster Red so you could, out of frustration, just buy the last ones you needed to finally champ him.

    I have nothing but sympathy for the newer starters. Doesn't benefit me that they can't get these old covers. I feel sorry that they cant get that character they really like.
    Sigh.  At least be honest.  It's very easy to get those few last covers with BH now.  What you can't easily do now (not like it was really all that easy before either, but whatever) is get those last 4-5 covers for 4-5 different characters.

    If it's one or two characters that someone is really in love with BH actually makes it easier than under the old system.
    Not for nothing... but that actually doesn't work out as easily as you're putting out here. First you have to be lucky enough to get the bonus hero triggered, and then you have to hope that it's not one of the colors you already have 5 of. I had 3* thanos as my BH because I wanted to get him finished... and for weeks it seemed impossible to get anything other than a purple cover for him when I had him 4/5/3. And that was with him being in the packs as well. I sold off at least 5 covers because they were about to expire.

    Combine that with vaulting and tokens that are harder to come by to start with... it could take a frustratingly long time to get that character to a useable state. In the "Oh geez, this isn't even worth it" kind of way.
    Come on man - there was RNG before just like there's RNG now. All we can do is compare the percentages/averages. Under the old system each time you open a LT you had close to 2.1% chance to pull any one character. Under the current system with BH you have a 5% chance to trigger the bonus coming out to 4.25% chance of getting a bonus 4*. Last I checked 4.25 > 2.1. If you want to nit pick and say you have an unusable color then fine, BH will get you your useful cover 2.8% of the time and the old system just 1.4% of the time. No matter how you slice it it comes out to doubling the chance of getting the cover(s) you want/need, so long as you focus on just one character at a time.
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Anyone expecting there feedback to be considered is fooling themselves.  I tried customer support a while back.  Sent in a ticket explaining the problems.  First response was just a link to the information about vaulting.  When I replied saying it didn't address the issue the second response apologized for any inconvenience, but discussing vaulting was a waste of their time and they won't answer any more questions about it if I submit anything.
  • Calnexin
    Calnexin Posts: 1,078 Chairperson of the Boards
    Zalasta said:

    I have been hitting Heroes for Hire for a few select classic characters that aren't fully covered, but it's expensive, and slow.

    You just aroused the D3 marketing staff.
  • Alsmir
    Alsmir Posts: 508 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2017
    mohio said:
    animaniactoo said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    MissChinch said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Honestly, this is the thing that's going to scupper people.
    Next week Peggy Carter is boosted, one of the best 4*s going. She's vaulted. Anyone who hadn't managed to champ her before her vaulting is going to have such a hard time in PvP.

    Sure it's a lot easier to get the new characters up and running, and I do appreciate that. It's nice having a character come out and then within a couple of months they're champed and usable as opposed to the old system whereby I still don't have 13 covers for Moonknight yet...and only got more recently due to a couple of daily rewards.

    The problem is older 4*s are still really useful. And now there's no real way to get them effectively. 3* champ rewards take a long time and only give you 3 covers. Bonus heroes are too random and, again, slow.

    I've said before, people like me who champed or 13-covers all the vaulted heroes benefit from vaulting, but anyone else really suffers. And I'm absolutely in the minority here.


    I appreciate you voicing your opinion, it seems less common for people to provide a counter view to a change they personally benefit from, and vice versa...  Kinda why I made it a point to mention I thought dropping roster based scaling was a positive move despite a reduction in rewards for me personally.  Objectivity is in short supply, and despite a singular instance I can point to, I'm sure I'm just as guilty as most.


    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone of consequence is listening, and we'll have to wait and let slow power creep devalue the 4* tier to the point where its made more available before getting some of these retired heroes adequately covered and leveled.

    Definitely what fuels my urge to understand those who don't benefit from vaulting is in my sig and my avatar.

    I freakin love Lady Thor. I love her design, I love her personality and her comics have been just amazing. But I can't reliably get covers for her in game. I mean, she's not top tier 4* any more, but that's not the point.

    If there was a character I was a HUGE fan of and found "Oh...there's no realistic way to get that character" there goes a big chunk of your motivation when starting the game. If you're in 2* or 3* land, looking forwards to the future "One day, I'll be able to use THAT guy!" and you find out that guy is vaulted...what's your ultimate goal then?

    See, the devs said they wanted to fix the dillution issue with 4*s, and this absolutely does that. I'm able to champ newer 4*s within weeks instead of waiting a year. But...this fixes one problem by creating another which is in some ways worse. Instead of RNG dictating whether you're lucky enough to get a Rocket & Groot or *yet another* Invisible Woman, you now cannot get those few Jean Grey covers you needed, or that one Hulkbuster Red so you could, out of frustration, just buy the last ones you needed to finally champ him.

    I have nothing but sympathy for the newer starters. Doesn't benefit me that they can't get these old covers. I feel sorry that they cant get that character they really like.
    Sigh.  At least be honest.  It's very easy to get those few last covers with BH now.  What you can't easily do now (not like it was really all that easy before either, but whatever) is get those last 4-5 covers for 4-5 different characters.

    If it's one or two characters that someone is really in love with BH actually makes it easier than under the old system.
    Not for nothing... but that actually doesn't work out as easily as you're putting out here. First you have to be lucky enough to get the bonus hero triggered, and then you have to hope that it's not one of the colors you already have 5 of. I had 3* thanos as my BH because I wanted to get him finished... and for weeks it seemed impossible to get anything other than a purple cover for him when I had him 4/5/3. And that was with him being in the packs as well. I sold off at least 5 covers because they were about to expire.

    Combine that with vaulting and tokens that are harder to come by to start with... it could take a frustratingly long time to get that character to a useable state. In the "Oh geez, this isn't even worth it" kind of way.
    Come on man - there was RNG before just like there's RNG now. All we can do is compare the percentages/averages. Under the old system each time you open a LT you had close to 2.1% chance to pull any one character. Under the current system with BH you have a 5% chance to trigger the bonus coming out to 4.25% chance of getting a bonus 4*. Last I checked 4.25 > 2.1. If you want to nit pick and say you have an unusable color then fine, BH will get you your useful cover 2.8% of the time and the old system just 1.4% of the time. No matter how you slice it it comes out to doubling the chance of getting the cover(s) you want/need, so long as you focus on just one character at a time.
    Which makes it absolutely garbage if i want to finish a couple of vaulted characters.

    Reality:
    I just finished 4* Punisher... by buying cover for 120cp... after buying HfH for the first time with saved hp, that put him at 3/5/4 and then pulling 3x bonus hero green cover (which I had 5 of).
    He started at 8 covers when vaulting hit me. I wasted 120 cp, 3600hp and 3 bloody bh pulls just to finish that one sucker. So now I have a total of 3 4* champs, 2 of them vaulted (second one was Cyclops who also required 120 cp cover purchase).

    After finishing Pun I had to choose my next BH, that was fun. Out of latest 12, the only one that interests me is Carol. Out of vaulted ones: Peggy, Rulk, Jean, Ice Man, Thor.
    Tell me more how new system gives me better odds.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Alsmir said:
    mohio said:
    animaniactoo said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    MissChinch said:
    Dragon_Nexus said:
    Honestly, this is the thing that's going to scupper people.
    Next week Peggy Carter is boosted, one of the best 4*s going. She's vaulted. Anyone who hadn't managed to champ her before her vaulting is going to have such a hard time in PvP.

    Sure it's a lot easier to get the new characters up and running, and I do appreciate that. It's nice having a character come out and then within a couple of months they're champed and usable as opposed to the old system whereby I still don't have 13 covers for Moonknight yet...and only got more recently due to a couple of daily rewards.

    The problem is older 4*s are still really useful. And now there's no real way to get them effectively. 3* champ rewards take a long time and only give you 3 covers. Bonus heroes are too random and, again, slow.

    I've said before, people like me who champed or 13-covers all the vaulted heroes benefit from vaulting, but anyone else really suffers. And I'm absolutely in the minority here.


    I appreciate you voicing your opinion, it seems less common for people to provide a counter view to a change they personally benefit from, and vice versa...  Kinda why I made it a point to mention I thought dropping roster based scaling was a positive move despite a reduction in rewards for me personally.  Objectivity is in short supply, and despite a singular instance I can point to, I'm sure I'm just as guilty as most.


    Unfortunately, I don't think anyone of consequence is listening, and we'll have to wait and let slow power creep devalue the 4* tier to the point where its made more available before getting some of these retired heroes adequately covered and leveled.

    Definitely what fuels my urge to understand those who don't benefit from vaulting is in my sig and my avatar.

    I freakin love Lady Thor. I love her design, I love her personality and her comics have been just amazing. But I can't reliably get covers for her in game. I mean, she's not top tier 4* any more, but that's not the point.

    If there was a character I was a HUGE fan of and found "Oh...there's no realistic way to get that character" there goes a big chunk of your motivation when starting the game. If you're in 2* or 3* land, looking forwards to the future "One day, I'll be able to use THAT guy!" and you find out that guy is vaulted...what's your ultimate goal then?

    See, the devs said they wanted to fix the dillution issue with 4*s, and this absolutely does that. I'm able to champ newer 4*s within weeks instead of waiting a year. But...this fixes one problem by creating another which is in some ways worse. Instead of RNG dictating whether you're lucky enough to get a Rocket & Groot or *yet another* Invisible Woman, you now cannot get those few Jean Grey covers you needed, or that one Hulkbuster Red so you could, out of frustration, just buy the last ones you needed to finally champ him.

    I have nothing but sympathy for the newer starters. Doesn't benefit me that they can't get these old covers. I feel sorry that they cant get that character they really like.
    Sigh.  At least be honest.  It's very easy to get those few last covers with BH now.  What you can't easily do now (not like it was really all that easy before either, but whatever) is get those last 4-5 covers for 4-5 different characters.

    If it's one or two characters that someone is really in love with BH actually makes it easier than under the old system.
    Not for nothing... but that actually doesn't work out as easily as you're putting out here. First you have to be lucky enough to get the bonus hero triggered, and then you have to hope that it's not one of the colors you already have 5 of. I had 3* thanos as my BH because I wanted to get him finished... and for weeks it seemed impossible to get anything other than a purple cover for him when I had him 4/5/3. And that was with him being in the packs as well. I sold off at least 5 covers because they were about to expire.

    Combine that with vaulting and tokens that are harder to come by to start with... it could take a frustratingly long time to get that character to a useable state. In the "Oh geez, this isn't even worth it" kind of way.
    Come on man - there was RNG before just like there's RNG now. All we can do is compare the percentages/averages. Under the old system each time you open a LT you had close to 2.1% chance to pull any one character. Under the current system with BH you have a 5% chance to trigger the bonus coming out to 4.25% chance of getting a bonus 4*. Last I checked 4.25 > 2.1. If you want to nit pick and say you have an unusable color then fine, BH will get you your useful cover 2.8% of the time and the old system just 1.4% of the time. No matter how you slice it it comes out to doubling the chance of getting the cover(s) you want/need, so long as you focus on just one character at a time.
    Which makes it absolutely garbage if i want to finish a couple of vaulted characters.

    Reality:
    I just finished 4* Punisher... by buying cover for 120cp... after buying HfH for the first time with saved hp, that put him at 3/5/4 and then pulling 3x bonus hero green cover (which I had 5 of).
    He started at 8 covers when vaulting hit me. I wasted 120 cp, 3600hp and 3 bloody bh pulls just to finish that one sucker. So now I have a total of 3 4* champs, 2 of them vaulted (second one was Cyclops who also required 120 cp cover purchase).

    After finishing Pun I had to choose my next BH, that was fun. Out of latest 12, the only one that interests me is Carol. Out of vaulted ones: Peggy, Rulk, Jean, Ice Man, Thor.
    Tell me more how new system gives me better odds.
    So you chose to spend 240cp on two different vaulted characters (even saying you "wasted" 120 of that), used hp for another cover (an option that hasn't existed in quite a long time) and set someone as your bonus that had 5 covers in one color?

    Explain to me how the game owes you something that you seem to be sabotaging yourself against?

    First, the fact that you could set Pun as your BH and get his cover through HfH are two things you couldn't do before vaulting.  
    Second, had all of the 4* been in the token odds, you STILL could have gotten those same three unusable covers for him. That's unfortunately how RNG works.  And that's if you even did get him, since there are 45 others that could have been pulled instead.
    Lastly, your unwillingness to see how great some of the latest 12 are, and how you spent 12 pulls worth of cp on vaulted characters, shows you are doing exactly what vaulting is supposed to do: give you the choice and ability to finish specific characters. 

    Do i think there should be another token?  Absolutely.  Do i think vaulting is working as intended?  Absolutely

    Are those two statements mutually exclusive?  Absolutely not.

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