The problem, to me, isn't actually vaulting

13

Comments

  • Felonius
    Felonius Posts: 289 Mover and Shaker

    When Vaulting launched there were 46 available 4* of which I had 32 (70%) of that total champed and 28 of those 32 (88%) championed 4* were locked away with me having only 4 (33%) of the initial B12 champed.

    But I just kept playing the way I played before... I don't really hoard, mostly I open as received.  Sometimes I'll collect-up a couple dozen LT worth, and open at once, but I'm not serious about it.  I champ whatever 4* for which I get a viable 14th cover.  A few times I had to help along that viability by spending 120cp on a 13th cover, which I don't mind doing.  Even the "bad" 4* get champed.  While some characters are better than others, every character has it's uses, and (almost) every character is pretty impressive when they're boosted and champed. 

    I'm now up to 44 champs of 51 available 4* (86%).  31 of those 44 are vaulted (70%).  And my B12 ratio has been as high as 11/12 (92%), but fell to 10/12 (83%) when Spider-Woman and C4ge left.  I've got Howard and Venom (Eddie) covers in queue... They'll be champed soon even though the former is Limited and the later Vaulted.  >shrug< They'll have their uses.  G4mora and Grock4t are already at 7 covers each, so their turn will be soon enough...

    So yeah, I'm catching-up, champing faster than release, and I feel good about that progress.  Do I miss those meaty sweet L330+ Champ Prizes?  Well, I am consciously aware I'm less likely to ever get those, but my highest 4* before was below 300, so it's not like I miss them because I wasn't getting them then, so I don't miss them now.  I still have to sell occasional covers, but mostly I don't.  My roster is broad and in almost every event I can field at least three boosted champs.

    I've heard some say I'm stunting my 5* growth... That may be.  But I think 5* land is for Whales and Hoarders, neither of which describes fun to me.  I've dipped my toes in that pool, and I'm making some progress there, but when it really becomes necessary to play at that level, I expect the game meta will change to make that more feasible.  I certainly don't need it now.  I easily get T50-T100 in PvE, and if I bother I can get 900pts and T100 in PvP, all of which is plenty fine for me and my T100 Alliance.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2017
    Felonius:  just because you had not yet reached level 300 for your 4* champs doesnt mean you would not have gotten there eventually under the old system.

    Now we all have 6-8 months for each 4* to get them as high as possible.  For me personally it looks like that will be the 300-320 range.  But those last 50 champ levels might take me 5 years unless they make vintage 4*s more available.  Progress in the old system was forever.  Once you champed someone you were locked in to some number of valuable cover pulls down the line.  Now it's a teadmill.  We can covsr new releases faster IF we grind, but the clock is always ticking and the cost of missing a particular character is much higher.  (And demi definitely knows and likes all of this; it's a feature and not a bug for them.  They want us to keep grinding forever.)
  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:
    Now it's a teadmill.  We can covsr new releases faster IF we grind, but the clock is always ticking and the cost of missing a particular character is much higher.  (And demi definitely knows and likes all of this; it's a feature and not a bug for them.  They want us to keep grinding forever.)
    Definitely true but also probably good for the long term health of the game.  

    Once people started maxing those 4*s the hamster wheel slows down a lot.  Same goes for 5* tier.  Slowing progress down a bit might feel bad for some of us but in the long run gives the 4* tier much more play.  
  • Avalanche Kincaid
    Avalanche Kincaid Posts: 83 Match Maker
    With moderate play you will have enough to champ three or four 4-star's each season.  Eventually you will catch up to the new releases and can chose what to do with the remaining ISO.  New should be priority over old as you will gain at least 20 champ levels to them before they leave.  That's a lot of rewards to be throwing out.  With the old you might get 6 champ level over a year's time (and to get this much you will have to compete with others).  So as I see it champ new is a necessity while champ old is a luxury.  Some of the old 4's are useful, but they are just as useful at L270 as they are at L271 so don't feel pressure to champ one because you have one cover dying on the vine
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,301 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2017
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Warbringa said:
    The issue for with vaulting is that it has made the champion feature much less worthwhile.  I will never get enough older 4* covers to make my current 4* champs useful from a champion rewards stand point.  I understand the fact that 4* dilution in an of itself hurts championing too.  However it is in the 3* fold where I feel that vaulting is really killing the champion feature.  You start to get better rewards around level 220 or so for 3* and now I will have a ton of 3* that will never get there in the next several years at the rate I get their tokens.  Well I will get a few of the 3* up to 220 faster due to vaulting but not quick enough in the long haul since they are still introducing new 3* characters and kicking out older 3* characters. I will have a lot of 3* languishing around that 200 level for a long time now.
    Bonus heroes and 2* champion rewards do an excellent job of covering 3*s
    I understand and do 2* farming but that is still the same as the old system.   That was there before vaulting and it is a decent way for a number of 3* covers for specific characters, some of which are still in the current token system too.  Bonus heroes alone do not provide enough covers for 3* in my experience to level up several different vaulted 3* within a year for example.  Yes I might be able to make good progress on a couple of those vaulted 3* but sometimes you need to alter bonus heroes too for your roster for other purposes (to get a specific 4* cover or cover a new 3* faster etc).  
  • GoTron88
    GoTron88 Posts: 9 Just Dropped In
    Alsmir said:
    Starfury said:
    Do what the devs have so obviously done:

    Pretend the vaulted characters don't even exist.
    Weekly buffed list is disagreeing with you.
    It was so fun grinding in Hawkeye'e PvP with 90% of the teams aboove 500 points using boosted Jean Grey.
    This.  Prior to vaulting, I could control my scaling.  Because of vaulting, I ended up with an excess of Agent Venom and Medusa covers, which basically meant I HAD to champion both (who are my first two 4* champs).  It's fine for PVE (sorta... I'm pretty much forced to use either AV or Medusa for almost every encounter, so I have virtually no variety in play), but wow the scaling in PvP... it's awful.  At most now I'll maybe go for 200-300 points in a PvP event, whereas previously I could manage 400-600 points.  Haven't even tried for the 10-pack since I champed those two a couple months back.

    I pretty much play only PvE now, of which I'm starting to get burned out because of the repetitive use of Medusa and/or AV.  I don't even bother trying for any sort of rank any more.  Even full prize progression is starting to feel meh.  But given that I JUST champed Coulson during the last event, maybe that will improve variety...??
  • SpringSoldier
    SpringSoldier Posts: 265 Mover and Shaker
    GoTron88 said:
    Alsmir said:
    Starfury said:
    Do what the devs have so obviously done:

    Pretend the vaulted characters don't even exist.
    Weekly buffed list is disagreeing with you.
    It was so fun grinding in Hawkeye'e PvP with 90% of the teams aboove 500 points using boosted Jean Grey.
    This.  Prior to vaulting, I could control my scaling.  Because of vaulting, I ended up with an excess of Agent Venom and Medusa covers, which basically meant I HAD to champion both (who are my first two 4* champs).  It's fine for PVE (sorta... I'm pretty much forced to use either AV or Medusa for almost every encounter, so I have virtually no variety in play), but wow the scaling in PvP... it's awful.  At most now I'll maybe go for 200-300 points in a PvP event, whereas previously I could manage 400-600 points.  Haven't even tried for the 10-pack since I champed those two a couple months back.

    I pretty much play only PvE now, of which I'm starting to get burned out because of the repetitive use of Medusa and/or AV.  I don't even bother trying for any sort of rank any more.  Even full prize progression is starting to feel meh.  But given that I JUST champed Coulson during the last event, maybe that will improve variety...??
    Offtopic: most of the PVE nodes I finish them off quite easily with Strange 3*, Iron Fist 3* and Jean Grey 5*- 3 covers only.

    The first 2 have powerful passives which kill off the goons easily and JG takes the hits. I keep Medusa, Blade and Luke Cage 5* (at 9 to 11 covers each) for PVP since they're the best fighters. Agent Venom seems bad when played  by the AI.

    I agree with your post though.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    KinDM said:
    What I don't get is why things rotate so slowly. Like, why 3* characters are one new one in, one old one out. Why not just swap 5 old characters for 5 other old characters every season. Same to an extent with 4*s.
    You can take that idea to its most absurd extent (rotate all 20 3*s every day, so that your pool today has none of the characters in it from yesterday (although some from the day before that). Clearly in this system, pulling a token on a random day essentially gets you what amounts to a random 3*, although since available characters are viewable I suppose you could save up your tokens for a day when the character(s) you "want" are in the available pool.

    ... I'm starting to like this idea, actually.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jaedenkaal said:
    KinDM said:
    What I don't get is why things rotate so slowly. Like, why 3* characters are one new one in, one old one out. Why not just swap 5 old characters for 5 other old characters every season. Same to an extent with 4*s.
    You can take that idea to its most absurd extent (rotate all 20 3*s every day, so that your pool today has none of the characters in it from yesterday (although some from the day before that). Clearly in this system, pulling a token on a random day essentially gets you what amounts to a random 3*, although since available characters are viewable I suppose you could save up your tokens for a day when the character(s) you "want" are in the available pool.

    ... I'm starting to like this idea, actually.
    These are really good suggestions.  Daily is a little much and season seems too rare.  I'd like this concept applied weekly based on the featured/boosted characters for that week.  This could also help D3 drive HP sales for people without the characters rostered/champed to try and get them in a hurry during those weeks.

    @Brigby could you pass these ideas onto the devs?
  • GoTron88
    GoTron88 Posts: 9 Just Dropped In
    SpringSoldier said:
    GoTron88 said:
    Alsmir said:
    Starfury said:
    Do what the devs have so obviously done:

    Pretend the vaulted characters don't even exist.
    Weekly buffed list is disagreeing with you.
    It was so fun grinding in Hawkeye'e PvP with 90% of the teams aboove 500 points using boosted Jean Grey.
    This.  Prior to vaulting, I could control my scaling.  Because of vaulting, I ended up with an excess of Agent Venom and Medusa covers, which basically meant I HAD to champion both (who are my first two 4* champs).  It's fine for PVE (sorta... I'm pretty much forced to use either AV or Medusa for almost every encounter, so I have virtually no variety in play), but wow the scaling in PvP... it's awful.  At most now I'll maybe go for 200-300 points in a PvP event, whereas previously I could manage 400-600 points.  Haven't even tried for the 10-pack since I champed those two a couple months back.

    I pretty much play only PvE now, of which I'm starting to get burned out because of the repetitive use of Medusa and/or AV.  I don't even bother trying for any sort of rank any more.  Even full prize progression is starting to feel meh.  But given that I JUST champed Coulson during the last event, maybe that will improve variety...??
    Offtopic: most of the PVE nodes I finish them off quite easily with Strange 3*, Iron Fist 3* and Jean Grey 5*- 3 covers only.

    The first 2 have powerful passives which kill off the goons easily and JG takes the hits. I keep Medusa, Blade and Luke Cage 5* (at 9 to 11 covers each) for PVP since they're the best fighters. Agent Venom seems bad when played  by the AI.

    I agree with your post though.
    For goon squads, most of the time I go 3trange, Medusa + who cares lol (though a good chunk of the time I go 4cage because I have 12 covers for him,and he actually has good synergy with Medusa).  For non goon I go Medusa+AV+whoever's boosted or 4cage.  It's been like this for weeks.  But that's partially also by choice (though also a direct result of vaulting forcing me to burn my ISO hoard).  I have a hoard of CP and tokens right now, but an ISO shortage, as is decreed by this game lol.
  • Hadronic
    Hadronic Posts: 338 Mover and Shaker
    Fightmastermpq said:

    The term comes from when this practice was first used several years ago where vaulted characters were truly vaulted - there was no way to get them at all.  Now you still have some limited access to vaulted characters through rewards and bonus heroes, but they are not available in things like LTs, heroics, etc.

    I thought for certain the term came from Disney. Disney was notorious for putting their animated classics in the Disney Vault and only letting them out periodically in order to keep them desirable.
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
    SpringSoldier said:
    HFH is expensive as hell and Bonus Heroes are way too rare.


    Everything you said is true. The very reason a sensible and good 20cp or even 25 CP store is not available is because expensive as hell is their goal. There was 10k solutions to dilution but the one that was picked is a cash grab and 90% know it.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    all I want for xmas is for the characters I "favor" to be added to the "draw" pool, then everyone is happy
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wumpushunter said:
    The very reason a sensible and good 20cp or even 25 CP store is not available is because expensive as hell is their goal. There was 10k solutions to dilution but the one that was picked is a cash grab and 90% know it.
    And you're an official spokesperson of Demiurge and this isn't merely an acerbic rumor, naturally
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    broll said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    KinDM said:
    What I don't get is why things rotate so slowly. Like, why 3* characters are one new one in, one old one out. Why not just swap 5 old characters for 5 other old characters every season. Same to an extent with 4*s.
    You can take that idea to its most absurd extent (rotate all 20 3*s every day, so that your pool today has none of the characters in it from yesterday (although some from the day before that). Clearly in this system, pulling a token on a random day essentially gets you what amounts to a random 3*, although since available characters are viewable I suppose you could save up your tokens for a day when the character(s) you "want" are in the available pool.

    ... I'm starting to like this idea, actually.
    These are really good suggestions.  Daily is a little much and season seems too rare.  I'd like this concept applied weekly based on the featured/boosted characters for that week.  This could also help D3 drive HP sales for people without the characters rostered/champed to try and get them in a hurry during those weeks.

    @Brigby could you pass these ideas onto the devs?

    Even though I personally think that seasons would make the most sense, since there's a token churn there anyway, if you want to make it more frequent, the DDQ cycles would probably be the 2nd most likely
  • DFiPL
    DFiPL Posts: 2,405 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:
    broll said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    KinDM said:
    What I don't get is why things rotate so slowly. Like, why 3* characters are one new one in, one old one out. Why not just swap 5 old characters for 5 other old characters every season. Same to an extent with 4*s.
    You can take that idea to its most absurd extent (rotate all 20 3*s every day, so that your pool today has none of the characters in it from yesterday (although some from the day before that). Clearly in this system, pulling a token on a random day essentially gets you what amounts to a random 3*, although since available characters are viewable I suppose you could save up your tokens for a day when the character(s) you "want" are in the available pool.

    ... I'm starting to like this idea, actually.
    These are really good suggestions.  Daily is a little much and season seems too rare.  I'd like this concept applied weekly based on the featured/boosted characters for that week.  This could also help D3 drive HP sales for people without the characters rostered/champed to try and get them in a hurry during those weeks.

    Brigby could you pass these ideas onto the devs?
    @broll
    Absolutely. This is one of the threads I plan on adding to my weekly report, but I'll be sure to relay @KinDM and @Jaedenkaal ideas of more frequent full rotations to the developers as I find it very intriguing; timing the rotation and characters to mirror the buffed characters is also a great idea, broll.
    Not enough characters are buffed during a given week to fill the token, though; eyeballing it it looks like there are 7 4* and 7 3* buffed each week.

    I guess maybe if you created a 'weekly' token similar to a Classic Legendary, but which contained the buffed 3's and 4's? Price it at 20 or 25 CP, tilt it towards the 3's, but have a 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 chance to pull a buffed 4.

    Keep the buffed 2's out of it; there are only a couple in a given week, and nobody would be happy with a token that was a 60% chance to pull one of three 2*.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    DFiPL said:
    Brigby said:
    broll said:
    Jaedenkaal said:
    KinDM said:
    What I don't get is why things rotate so slowly. Like, why 3* characters are one new one in, one old one out. Why not just swap 5 old characters for 5 other old characters every season. Same to an extent with 4*s.
    You can take that idea to its most absurd extent (rotate all 20 3*s every day, so that your pool today has none of the characters in it from yesterday (although some from the day before that). Clearly in this system, pulling a token on a random day essentially gets you what amounts to a random 3*, although since available characters are viewable I suppose you could save up your tokens for a day when the character(s) you "want" are in the available pool.

    ... I'm starting to like this idea, actually.
    These are really good suggestions.  Daily is a little much and season seems too rare.  I'd like this concept applied weekly based on the featured/boosted characters for that week.  This could also help D3 drive HP sales for people without the characters rostered/champed to try and get them in a hurry during those weeks.

    Brigby could you pass these ideas onto the devs?
    @broll
    Absolutely. This is one of the threads I plan on adding to my weekly report, but I'll be sure to relay @KinDM and @Jaedenkaal ideas of more frequent full rotations to the developers as I find it very intriguing; timing the rotation and characters to mirror the buffed characters is also a great idea, broll.
    Not enough characters are buffed during a given week to fill the token, though; eyeballing it it looks like there are 7 4* and 7 3* buffed each week.

    I guess maybe if you created a 'weekly' token similar to a Classic Legendary, but which contained the buffed 3's and 4's? Price it at 20 or 25 CP, tilt it towards the 3's, but have a 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 chance to pull a buffed 4.

    Keep the buffed 2's out of it; there are only a couple in a given week, and nobody would be happy with a token that was a 60% chance to pull one of three 2*.
    20 CP is way too much for a token that contains 3*s. Maybe a 25 CP alternative to latest legends, with a limited selection of vaulted 4*s (8?) and 5*s (3)

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