The problem, to me, isn't actually vaulting

Wonko33

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

sure let me hoard for a year until there is a new rotation of 12 - that's a lot of fun. Will my championed vaulted guys be back by then ?

MissChinch

Wonko33 said:

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

sure let me hoard for a year until there is a new rotation of 12 - that's a lot of fun. Will my championed vaulted guys be back by then ?

No retired characters are going to "come out" of the vault al la classic Disney movies, once they're retired they're done. 

The real detriment is you'll end up having double digits of level 270-290 4*s that will never take advantage of the champion system and never get into the meaty 330+ level area... 

Unless you hoard like its your job, then you'll see a distinct increase in the strength of your championed 4*s...   but that's a ton of hoarding and most efficiently done at the cost of other heroes (let some slip by into retirement obscurity without covering them so you can save your pulls on a group that you can get well into the 300s)

Jaedenkaal

Just pull, and accept the fact that you don't need to make 100% of your token pulls usable to progress.

Nick441234

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

Its not like you can do that for long though cause then Coulson drops out of the packs and you are forever left with an undercovered character with very little ways to earn new covers for them. 

MissChinch

nick_chicane said:

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

Its not like you can do that for long though cause then Coulson drops out of the packs and you are forever left with an undercovered character with very little ways to earn new covers for them. 

that's the price of hoarding to target your covers on specific heroes some aren't going to get as many...

a so-so 4* at level 270 that's retired likely wont ever be used, so very little loss in having it only have 3-4 covers.

You could half hoard, only pull until the next 4* to be retired has 13 covers then hoard, and wait till you get a massive amount of CP and dump it all when theres a 4* you like lined up to be retired next...

NewMcG

nick_chicane said:

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

Its not like you can do that for long though cause then Coulson drops out of the packs and you are forever left with an undercovered character with very little ways to earn new covers for them. 

If you don't make at least some basic plans for what to spend your iso/CP on, then your roster will be in some state of disarray. If this person wants Coulson covers, then keep pulling and cross their fingers. If they want guaranteed Coulson covers in a certain color, then they can bank CP and buy them directly. There are way more choices than "pull the second you get the CP for an LT" (which is still my approach, however questionably wise it may be) and "bank CP and never pull another token again". 

Avalanche Kincaid

Just forget about X-23, you will never use her at such a low level.  Boosted 4* start to get really strong around L310.  Around L330 you will be able to use them with L450 5* if you wanted (65K hulkbuster for example).  Champ the newest first and get them as high as you can before leaving.  I though RIRI was horrible, but around L 310 her red started hitting for 28K and green was decent damage.  Mordo is actually decent once he gets up there too.  Fist....not so good, but whatever

smkspy

Jaedenkaal said:

Just pull, and accept the fact that you don't need to make 100% of your token pulls usable to progress.

This is the reality both pre and post vaulting. I probably sold 20 covers of my never- champed spider woman along the way, but I have a 290 agent venom though. I've sold 10 or so mordo covers before champing him now...he'll end up over 300 before leveling tokens though.

Likewise my 12 cover coulson and max covered c&d both of whom I will sell quite a few covers along the way, but once champed will easily be over 300 when all is said and done.

BoyWonder1914

**** that, if you wanna champ your X-23, champ your X-23. If you know exactly how you are going to be using a character, and in your mind it adds value to your roster and strategy, then play the game the way that you feel you will get the most enjoyment out of of. 

I champed and play with my Peggy, MK, Fury, PX, Hulkbuster, Lady Thor, etc. post-vaulting because playing with them is FUN. Not because of how many champ levels I expect to rake in, not because of whatever meta, but because I ENJOY the game more when I use these characters that I personally find cool and fun. Does that mean that I don't champ people from the latest 12? Absolutely not! But I've been waiting to champ my Star Lord for god knows how long, dreaming of all the teams that I get to incorporate him into, and how much more I'll enjoy PVE with him on my squad. If have even 1 cover of his on my vine and 10 Riris, 12 Coulsons, and 15 Gwen Pools, you're damn right I'm going to champ my Star Lord. 

I don't need to even use CP to get the latest 12 covered. And once they're covered, I can champ them anytime I damn well please, whether they are still in the token 12 at that point or not. I have 18 champs now, whether I champ a Token12 or a vaulted character next has ZERO impact on my competitive ability in this game. Hell I was able to hit t10 PVE/900 PVP when could count my 4-star champs on one hand! You're not going to convince me that I'm somehow doing myself a disservice by not putting all of my time and effort into the latest 12. A 271 IceMan and a 290 Bl4de will still wreck lives in a similar fashion during a boosted week. So again, go by what YOU want to do man. Obviously higher level champ rewards are nice, but not to the point that its worth giving up an opportunity to champ someone that YOU personally have been wanting for a cover for since God knows how long. 

Warbringa

The issue for with vaulting is that it has made the champion feature much less worthwhile.  I will never get enough older 4* covers to make my current 4* champs useful from a champion rewards stand point.  I understand the fact that 4* dilution in an of itself hurts championing too.  However it is in the 3* fold where I feel that vaulting is really killing the champion feature.  You start to get better rewards around level 220 or so for 3* and now I will have a ton of 3* that will never get there in the next several years at the rate I get their tokens.  Well I will get a few of the 3* up to 220 faster due to vaulting but not quick enough in the long haul since they are still introducing new 3* characters and kicking out older 3* characters. I will have a lot of 3* languishing around that 200 level for a long time now.

Jaedenkaal

Warbringa said:

The issue for with vaulting is that it has made the champion feature much less worthwhile.  I will never get enough older 4* covers to make my current 4* champs useful from a champion rewards stand point.  I understand the fact that 4* dilution in an of itself hurts championing too.  However it is in the 3* fold where I feel that vaulting is really killing the champion feature.  You start to get better rewards around level 220 or so for 3* and now I will have a ton of 3* that will never get there in the next several years at the rate I get their tokens.  Well I will get a few of the 3* up to 220 faster due to vaulting but not quick enough in the long haul since they are still introducing new 3* characters and kicking out older 3* characters. I will have a lot of 3* languishing around that 200 level for a long time now.

Bonus heroes and 2* champion rewards do an excellent job of covering 3*s

nitefox1337

I google Vaulting. I read the official Vault announcement from mpq. And yet, I still have no clue about what this "Vaulting" everyone is talking about is nor how it works.

If someone could explain it from scratch, it would be much appreciated.

Fightmastermpq said:

nitefox1337 said:

I googled Vaulting. I read the official Vault announcement from mpq. And yet, I still have no clue about what this "Vaulting" everyone is talking about is nor how it works.

If someone could explain it from scratch, it would be much appreciated.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/60255/new-feature-bonus-heroes-updated-3-1-17/p1

"Vaulting" refers to the part about removing characters from packs.  The characters no longer available are considered to be "vaulted" i.e. locked away in a vault that are not accessible.

The term comes from when this practice was first used several years ago where vaulted characters were truly vaulted - there was no way to get them at all.  Now you still have some limited access to vaulted characters through rewards and bonus heroes, but they are not available in things like LTs, heroics, etc.

Oh, ok, tnx.

I guess it's to pressure customers to buy tokens before their favorite character is retired.

Calnexin

MissChinch said:

The real detriment is you'll end up having double digits of level 270-290 4*s that will never take advantage of the champion system and never get into the meaty 330+ level area... 

You can still get there, if you're willing to pick a favorite and stick with it.  The vast majority of your characters will never get there, but if you choose one you can advance them at about 60% the rate of any given latest.  I suspect there will be a disproportionate number of the top tier in the low-mid-300s a year from now, while everything else sits around 290 or lower forever.

Just what the game needs, MORE limitations on the characters you see in PvP!

Rick_OShay

Calnexin said:

Just what the game needs, MORE limitations on the characters you see in PvP!

That's the point I was going to make. Since vaulting, there has been much LESS Variety in PvP and Sim.
Since it's easier for Everyone to have most of the latest 12 champed, that's almost all we see (except the awesome boosteds obv, blah blah Jean blah). 

It used to be more fun when you happened to have a randomly stronger character than the majority of other players. Now, the majority of players have the same characters moving at such a similar pace, and there goes any competitive advantage... (yes there's sicko's with champed R4G & G4mora already, don't say that's the player majority).

Nick441234

MissChinch said:

nick_chicane said:

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

Its not like you can do that for long though cause then Coulson drops out of the packs and you are forever left with an undercovered character with very little ways to earn new covers for them. 

that's the price of hoarding to target your covers on specific heroes some aren't going to get as many...

a so-so 4* at level 270 that's retired likely wont ever be used, so very little loss in having it only have 3-4 covers.

You could half hoard, only pull until the next 4* to be retired has 13 covers then hoard, and wait till you get a massive amount of CP and dump it all when theres a 4* you like lined up to be retired next...

Risky business though. Imagine ending up with 5 or 6 characters all with 3/4 covers. 

Vhailorx

DFiPL said:

I didn't mind it so much when it happened and that hasn't really changed - I have five of the current Token12 covered, have covered everybody from Peggy through C4ge/Spider-Woman, and most of the rest have made significant progress.

So the reality is, it has achieved its goal.

Where I'm starting to have an issue with it is that between the lack of appreciable access to vintage heroes, and the veritable flood of covers for the Token12, champion decisions can sometimes cause resentment. I have a 13 cover Mordo; do I champion him, with maybe another dozen covers and the concomitant rewards, or do I champion X-23, who might get a couple covers a year, but who I've actively been trying to cover for a year or more?

I guess maybe put another way, if I could level the characters whose cover flow has been drastically reduced without feeling like I'm harming my progress with the active ones, I'd resent it less when I cover an active character I don't much care for. If 40 of the 4* are going to be minimally accessible for most players, maybe their level costs should get a look? 

No way DFi,

your argument boils down to "Vaulting isn't the problem; I don't mind vaulting.  What I don't like are the direct and inevitable results of the vaulting system. . ."  It's 6 of one/half-dozen of the other; a distinction without a difference.

Vaulting has some positives (faster usability for new characters) and some negatives (substantially reduced build rate for vintage 4*s). 

Some people are really excited about the positives and completely ignore the negatives (*cough*fightmasta*cough*).  Others are all focused on the negatives, and some even wisely recognize both and argue about vaulting on a cost/benefit basis. 

But let's not confuse dicussion of vaulting with discussion of new optimal strategies given vaulting.  Obviously hoarding tokens and leveraging resources to minimize the risk of unusable covers is possible.  But that doesn't make these strategies a solution to vaulting!  They are nothing more than an adaptation.  There are tons of systemic solutions that players have been proposed and which demi has, to date, ignored or rejected for patently untrue reasons (Sorry brigby, but not putting vintage 4*s in classic tokens to avoid dilution, but then implementing vintage heroics is a just an indefensible position to take. . .).  Demi decided to implement this **** vaulting system.  And we players are perfectly justified to complain about it if we like (and point out all of its various failings). 


(and for those who say "but bonus hereos. . ." just stop.  Vaulting affects 100% of 3* and 4* pulls. Bonus heroes is all positive for players, but it only affects 5% of pulls.  They aren't on anything close the same scale, so direct comparisons are not helpful)

Rick_OShay

If we could just choose 4 more characters to the Token 12, making it 16 = Latest 12 plus 4 Token'ed, then we would have potentially 4 more characters to spend health packs on. 

Certainly many of us would like Valuted's to be available in Classic Legendary pulls, but if they were going to consider that they wouldn't have made the Classic Heroic store (or maybe even the HfH store). 

Doing the above would regain some of the 'value' that has been lost on LT's over the last few months.

Wonko33

MissChinch said:

Wonko33 said:

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

sure let me hoard for a year until there is a new rotation of 12 - that's a lot of fun. Will my championed vaulted guys be back by then ?

No retired characters are going to "come out" of the vault al la classic Disney movies, once they're retired they're done. 

The real detriment is you'll end up having double digits of level 270-290 4*s that will never take advantage of the champion system and never get into the meaty 330+ level area... 

Unless you hoard like its your job, then you'll see a distinct increase in the strength of your championed 4*s...   but that's a ton of hoarding and most efficiently done at the cost of other heroes (let some slip by into retirement obscurity without covering them so you can save your pulls on a group that you can get well into the 300s)

yes in one swoop they destroyed the championing system

NewMcG

Wonko33 said:

MissChinch said:

Wonko33 said:

GrumpySmurf1002 said:

Wonko33 said:

Personally vaulting was a disaster- How many Colston purple must I trash while all my championed vaulted characters just sit there ? 

None?  Stop pulling/start hoarding if waste is a huge issue.

sure let me hoard for a year until there is a new rotation of 12 - that's a lot of fun. Will my championed vaulted guys be back by then ?

No retired characters are going to "come out" of the vault al la classic Disney movies, once they're retired they're done. 

The real detriment is you'll end up having double digits of level 270-290 4*s that will never take advantage of the champion system and never get into the meaty 330+ level area... 

Unless you hoard like its your job, then you'll see a distinct increase in the strength of your championed 4*s...   but that's a ton of hoarding and most efficiently done at the cost of other heroes (let some slip by into retirement obscurity without covering them so you can save your pulls on a group that you can get well into the 300s)

yes in one swoop they destroyed the championing system

Yep, with constantly-more-diluted tokens, in the time between the day championing started, when I champed IMHB, and the day vaulting started, he gained 13 champ levels.

In the time since vaulting started, 4 of the current 12 have already surpassed that, two by almost 10 levels. Many of which have several months left in tokens. System destroyed!!!

KinDM

What I don't get is why things rotate so slowly. Like, why 3* characters are one new one in, one old one out. Why not just swap 5 old characters for 5 other old characters every season. Same to an extent with 4*s. Whenever a character gets reworked, put them in the rotation as well. Maybe we keep the last 10 characters, the latest reworked 4* for the season, and one random older 4* gets rotated in per week, so people can maybe make a LITTLE progress. Or even make a 20cp classic token that's only 4*s? I'm in a good place, literally every 4* but Dino at 13 covers, so I actually like the current system to keep on top of things, but I know I'm the minority, and I acknowledge that locking out content from new players is a bad thing. So with all the many many creative ways they could solve this, why is it so bland and uncreative?