Please nerf Eliminate the Competition

124

Comments

  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    EDHdad said:It's fine if people want the card Nerfed, but have some objective data to back up it up besides "Thopters is scary".
    Listen, ever since you came up with your 6 Solemn Recruit example, we don't need to say anything at all. I'm very happy to let what you've said stand without comment.
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    The point isn't that you will literally cast 6 Solemn Recruits in a row.  The point is if you cast cards like Solemn Recruit (1 mana = 1 power creature) you will win twice as fast as with TSN.  You'd get similar results with Devil's Playground, Sram, Lone Rider (once he's flipped), Visionary Augmenter (if all the fabricate tokens stick), Probably Lightning Runner (if you hit Overload on a regular basis), Goldnight Castigator, Priest of the Blood Rite, Startled Awake + (nearly anything), Deploy the Gatewatch + (stuff you put in a Deploy deck), Behold the Beyond + (creatures, assuming you can bring yourself to play creatures in Black), etc.

    And that's for twice as fast as TSN.  To win as fast as TSN, virtually anything will do.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    EDHdad said:
    The point isn't that you will literally cast 6 Solemn Recruits in a row.  The point is if you cast cards like Solemn Recruit (1 mana = 1 power creature) you will win twice as fast as with TSN.  You'd get similar results with Devil's Playground, Sram, Lone Rider (once he's flipped), Visionary Augmenter (if all the fabricate tokens stick), Probably Lightning Runner (if you hit Overload on a regular basis), Goldnight Castigator, Priest of the Blood Rite, Startled Awake + (nearly anything), Deploy the Gatewatch + (stuff you put in a Deploy deck), Behold the Beyond + (creatures, assuming you can bring yourself to play creatures in Black), etc.

    And that's for twice as fast as TSN.  To win as fast as TSN, virtually anything will do.
    I see.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    shteev said:
    EDHdad said:It's fine if people want the card Nerfed, but have some objective data to back up it up besides "Thopters is scary".
    Listen, ever since you came up with your 6 Solemn Recruit example, we don't need to say anything at all. I'm very happy to let what you've said stand without comment.

    I NE'd
     And you're right about that (still convinced you're Brigby, btw). TSN is extremely powerful because it puts a constant pressure on the board, not because it's a quick win, simple as that.
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    Fair enough, but the pressure would be there even if the card was Nerfed.  Make 2 or 3 thopters per turn, it still puts on pressure.  Increase the casting cost to 13 or 15 and it still puts on pressure.

    As someone mentioned, the card eats removal.  The opponent is either killing thopters every few turns or trying to pop supports.  It isn't the Thopter Spy Network that's the big problem.  It's the Prism Array / Drowner of Hope / Jace's Sanctum and the like, and the fact that you blew all your kill spells on Thopters.

    Is it powerful?  Sure.  Is it overpowered?  Not really.  Is it worse than all the cards that spawn zombies and if you kill a zombie it makes more zombies, or if you cast a spell you make zombies, or if you make the opponent discard, it makes zombies, and you can't get rid of all the tiny kitten zombies?  Not necessarily.
  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    @EDHdad

    What I kind of miss in your comparison is the fact that Thopter Spy Network actually really casts 4 thopters every round while your creature is cast once and then you have to cast it again. So, you assume that you have the mana to cast the card every round and also, draw it every round.
    Once the creature is removed the threat is gone. Thopter Spy Network will just put out the next thopters and the threat is cack again.

    You mention the extra support you have to cast, but I think that is only a small hurdle with a deck full of supports and fabricate.

    That why, IMO, your comparison to cards like Conclave Naturalist, Devil's Playground (A very powerful card btw, that beats a beloved masterpiece, IMO ^^) or volcanic rambler is flawed. It could though show, how totally overpowered Thopter Spy Network is compared to the cards you mentioned.

    With Rattlechains and Startle Awake you mention two other cards that are totally out of a reasonable line and should be tuned down with Thopter Spy Network as well.

    @Mainloop25
    Yes, he was, but it was his intetion to call against balancing and so I thought I write an answer to that.
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    @AngelForge- fair enough, but the flip side of that is Thopter Spy Network doesn't stack.  Draw 3 Thopter Spy Network in your opening hand and you're in for a slog fest if you can't pull another support.  Draw 3 Volcanic Ramblers and you're off to the races.

    The point isn't to construct Magical Christmasland Scenarios.  It's just to come up with some rational, objective way to compare card x to card y.  I do this with every card.  "Will it kill Olivia?  Will it kill Gaea's Revenge?  Will it kill Hixus?  How fast does it kill Ob Nixilis?"

    Oath of Liliana spits out tokens every turn as well.  And it probably kills one of your creatures on the way in.  But I've never seen a shteev - caliber player worry too much about Oath of Liliana.

    Again, this is shteev.  Shteev is all-powerful.  Shteev is godlike.  Shteev eats level 512 Tezzeret decks for breakfast and complains that he hasn't been given a challenge.  Shteev is a charter member of the #1 coalition in the history of coalitions (I think.  They all changed their names and there hasn't been a relevant coalition event for a while).  Of all the cards in the entire game to get under his skin, it's just surprising that it's this one.
  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    @EDHdad
    Oath of Liliana actually was in the back of my mind, but then I forgot to mention it.
    But i feel like a balance action towards OoL could only be mana wise. At the monet 11 mana is not very costly for what is does.

    Another approach could actually be to boost up other cards like Consulate Crackdown (lower mana cost), or invent new cards that can make these powerful mythic cards easier to deal with. I still miss Tranquility (or something liek that) in green.
    Is that card still part of Paper MTG?

    Mentioning Shteev and his picking of this cards... There are way to many unbalanced cards out there and so we all tend to "cherry pick" one card once in a while, often related to a bad in-game experience. I know that can be annoying (especially when you own that particular card and see all the other cards that you don't own, get away  unharmed).

    So, yeah, I guess this will go on, until D3go decides to start balacing cards. But I think that will not happen due to the workforce they would have to put into it and no money to gain for it... Most of our overpowered mythic cards are pretty safe I would guess. ;-)

  • gruntface
    gruntface Posts: 161 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    Going up against TSN (I don't have it, would love to have it), it's not a question of speed, it's a question of persistency. It's a niggling little bugger of a card and even support removal is no guarantee given other supports may be targeted. Plus tsn is one of those cards the ai can autopilot and still be a threat. 

    Is it overpowered? Well that's in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it needs to be nerfed because we really should use that as a last recourse for truly broken cards (Baral needed adjustment, RE needs adjustment and I have both so stand to lose).

    TSN is a great card and this game needs something worth chasing especially with all of the recent changes so let it stand. Let EtC stand as well. Likelihood is AI won't use it very well or in a timely fashion. 




  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    EDHdad said:
    @AngelForge- fair enough, but the flip side of that is Thopter Spy Network doesn't stack.  Draw 3 Thopter Spy Network in your opening hand and you're in for a slog fest if you can't pull another support.  Draw 3 Volcanic Ramblers and you're off to the races.

    The point isn't to construct Magical Christmasland Scenarios.  It's just to come up with some rational, objective way to compare card x to card y.  I do this with every card.  "Will it kill Olivia?  Will it kill Gaea's Revenge?  Will it kill Hixus?  How fast does it kill Ob Nixilis?"

    Oath of Liliana spits out tokens every turn as well.  And it probably kills one of your creatures on the way in.  But I've never seen a shteev - caliber player worry too much about Oath of Liliana.

    Again, this is shteev.  Shteev is all-powerful.  Shteev is godlike.  Shteev eats level 512 Tezzeret decks for breakfast and complains that he hasn't been given a challenge.  Shteev is a charter member of the #1 coalition in the history of coalitions (I think.  They all changed their names and there hasn't been a relevant coalition event for a while).  Of all the cards in the entire game to get under his skin, it's just surprising that it's this one.

    You're missing the point. Shteev doesn't have TSN. 
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    AngelForge said:

    With Rattlechains and Startled Awake you mention two other cards that are totally out of a reasonable line and should be tuned down with Thopter Spy Network as well.
    It may not be immediately obvious to some why I'm targetting TSN at this time, and not, say, Baral, or Prism Array.

    The reason is simple, really: all the other really problematic power cards are about to rotate out of MTGPQ Standard. Well nearly all.... Baral is most likely still a problem, but it's not like debate has really died away about him yet (I've been playing him in Kiora... dude draws a lot more cards than a Sigiled Starfish, I'll tell you that). Hixus is staying in, but it's a broken defensive card (with the built in vulnerability of 1 shield), as opposed to a broken win condition with combined draw engine.

    If you're interested, I picked out my list for the worst offenders in the game a while ago in this thread:
    http://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/676434/#Comment_676434

    I missed out colorless cards there... but I'm not sure I'd add any. I really don't know about Gonti's Aether Heart; I haven't got one, I don't remember playing against it in PvP, and it's never given me any particular problems in RatC when I go into the 3rd node all tooled up for what I know it's going to throw at me.

    As for the Masterpieces... that's probably a topic for another thread. Nerfing masterpieces sure is going to piss some whales off if they've spent hundreds of dollars getting hold of them. I reckon that's why Ornithopter got changed, btw... some whale got hold of one, didn't like it, so he rang up customer services and they changed it to his whim.

    Goodness, but this thread has wandered a little from the topic of EtC, hasn't it.
  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    edited May 2017
    @shteev
    That's true, a lot of cards cirlce out of PVP, I wasn't aware of that here.

    But that Baral is better than a Sigiled Starfish... 
    Well, to me Baral seems okay at the moment. That observation may change when I don't have the opportunity to remove him right away when he was played, since a lot of my removals will be removed.

    I've played a few games with Ajani Unyielding yesterday, restricting my deck to Origins and Kaladesh, which was quite interesting. Skywhaler's Shot was the only reasonable removal for me there... A lot of things could become a problem there, not only Baral...

    Yes, this thread went "nerf this card" to "nerf these as well" which is fine I think. It could be way more offtopic... ;-)
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    OK.  If it's part of a larger list, that's fine.  I'd still classify it as "constructed playable", not "overpowered", but there isn't much from Origins that I'd characterize as overpowered.  Starfield of Nyx, Hixus, Infinite Obliteration and some others are terrifying, but they were terrifying before.  You can cheat a card like Gaea's Revenge into play with Dubious Challenge, but it's risky if you can't back up the Dubious Challenge with a cheap kill spell. 

    Some cards that fell out of favor move up a notch.  Unholy Hunger and Turn to Frog are premier kill spells again.  Some folks will probably be dusting off their Scab-Clan Berserkers.  Disciple of the Ring might pop out of the woodwork.  Harbinger of the Tides and Brawler's Plate might see play.  I've already seen some nasty shenanigans with Blightcaster and fabricate cards.

    I'd been playing Suppression Bonds + Hixus + Authority of the Consuls in a Sorin deck designed to beat the "take x or less damage" objectives in events.  Individually, they're fragile, but throw enough on the board and something might stick.  Though part of that might be the fact that Behold the Beyond lets you cast them for 0-1 mana.

    Some of the Masterpieces are a bit bonkers if you have them.  Defense Grid, most of the Swords, Platinum Angel, Black Vise, maybe some others.  And oh, look.  Suddenly, spending money for Angel of Invention or Herald of Anguish probably wasn't the worst idea in the world.


  • Matthew
    Matthew Posts: 605 Critical Contributor
    Hixus invalidates all of this, especially that scary as tinykitty Recruit.

    All it takes is some proper board set-up before casting to minimize the chance of an immediate popping.
  • Phase
    Phase Posts: 157 Tile Toppler
    Part of the reason thopter spy network is so strong is that support removal in this game is terrible. The mechanics of dealing with supports make it pretty frustrating to deal with.

    Personally I'd be down for lowering its mana cost 2 or so but bringing the shields to 2 so there is some more counterplay to it. But I don't think it's broken or anything. Frankly Gaea's Revenge is going to be way more of a problem going forward. 
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Phase said:
    Personally I'd be down for lowering its mana cost 2 or so but bringing the shields to 2 so there is some more counterplay to it. But I don't think it's broken or anything. Frankly Gaea's Revenge is going to be way more of a problem going forward. 
    Gaea's Revenge will be a cornerstone of the metagame, as it's always been... you should always assume a green opponent you play can play a GR. But we've got decent disable answers to him at rare... SBonds, Deadlock Trap, AoC. Hell, if AKH zombies are any good, then maybe Fleabag Marauder will be playable.

    I remain to be convinced that he'll be OP in standard. It's possible, tho.

    [edit] Reports have just started coming in that Disable no longer removes Hexproof from GR? So, maybe he should go on the OP watchlist after all :)
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    TSN + Anointed Procession looks mighty nice.
  • Ekkias
    Ekkias Posts: 42 Just Dropped In
    edited May 2017
    @madwren That's helpful for Dovin. For the rest of the white PW, I'm thinking Throne + Anointed Procession. Hehe
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
    wereotter said:
    ...<snip>....
    Your argument relies on both drawing 6 copies of Solemn Recruit for the second example, and getting zero cascades for the first. We all know in the AI's hands it's more

    Turn 1:

    cascade 70 mana, play entire hand. Use Saheeli loyalty ability to make thopters before extra swap.

    Turn 2:

    Thopter Spy Network makes more thopters, cascade indefunitately gertkng more thopters off Hangarback Walker. You take lethal thopters damage. 

    So, TSN cost you 4 life in this combo... 
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
    EDHdad said:
    Fair enough, but the pressure would be there even if the card was Nerfed.  Make 2 or 3 thopters per turn, it still puts on pressure.  Increase the casting cost to 13 or 15 and it still puts on pressure.

    As someone mentioned, the card eats removal.  The opponent is either killing thopters every few turns or trying to pop supports.  It isn't the Thopter Spy Network that's the big problem.  It's the Prism Array / Drowner of Hope / Jace's Sanctum and the like, and the fact that you blew all your kill spells on Thopters.

    Is it powerful?  Sure.  Is it overpowered?  Not really.  Is it worse than all the cards that spawn zombies and if you kill a zombie it makes more zombies, or if you cast a spell you make zombies, or if you make the opponent discard, it makes zombies, and you can't get rid of all the tiny kitten zombies?  Not necessarily.

    One thing that TSN does have is it still in standard, unlike nearly any of these zombie cards you mention....

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