Please nerf Eliminate the Competition

135

Comments

  • Phase
    Phase Posts: 157 Tile Toppler
    EDHdad said:
    Let's say you generate 6 mana per turn and you're playing against a planeswalker with 119 life and absolutely no removal.

    Turn 1, cast "a support"
    Turn 2, generate 6 mana
    Turn 3, generate 6 mana
    Turn 4 generate 6 mana.  Cast Thopter Spy Network.
    Turn 5 Make a 4/4 thopter
    Turn 6 Thopter is 8/8 and attacks.  Opponent is at 111 life.

    Note that it took 6 freaking turns for you to even ding your opponent for a lousy 8 life.

    Turn 7 Thopter is 12/12.  Opponent is at 99 life.

    Turn 8 Thopter is 16/16.  Opponent is at 83 life

    Turn 9 Thopter is 20/20.  Opponent is at 63 life.

    Turn 10 Thopter is 24/24.  Opponent is at 39 life.

    Turn 11 Thopter is 28/28.  Opponent is at 11 life.

    Turn 12 Thopter is 32/32.  Opponent takes lethal damage, because they lacked any kind of removal for 12 turns.

    ****

    Now, compare this to, say, Solemn Recruit.

    Turn 1, cast Solemn Recruit.

    Turn 2, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 12.  Opponent is at 107

    Turn 3, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 18.  Opponent is at 89

    Turn 4, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 24.  Opponent is at 65

    Turn 5, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 30.  Opponent is at 35.

    Turn 6, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 36.  Opponent is dead.

    With one card and no combo, you could kill your opponent in the same amount of time that it takes to ding your opponent for 8 using Thopter Spy Network.

    If you can't deal with TSN, "run more removal".  Demolish is a card.  So is Disperse.  Or a card like Authority of the Consuls or Thalia would shut it down completely.

    When you kill a solemn recruit it does not come back. TSN's strength is not winning a damage race (this disadvantageous scenario you presented here). Its strength is that your opponent must deal with the thopters every few turns or lose, while the player with TSN gets to eschew nearly all creatures in their deck build for more removal and control elements.

    "Run more disable" is viable counterplay so I am not screaming for a TSN nerf. But you can't really use this comparison to say it's not that strong. It's a very powerful mythic and one Grip does not deal with this threat over the course of a game like it would for Solemn Recruit and friends.

  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    EDHdad said:
    Let's say you generate 6 mana per turn and you're playing against a planeswalker with 119 life and absolutely no removal.

    Turn 1, cast "a support"
    Turn 2, generate 6 mana
    Turn 3, generate 6 mana
    Turn 4 generate 6 mana.  Cast Thopter Spy Network.
    Turn 5 Make a 4/4 thopter
    Turn 6 Thopter is 8/8 and attacks.  Opponent is at 111 life.

    Note that it took 6 freaking turns for you to even ding your opponent for a lousy 8 life.

    Turn 7 Thopter is 12/12.  Opponent is at 99 life.

    Turn 8 Thopter is 16/16.  Opponent is at 83 life

    Turn 9 Thopter is 20/20.  Opponent is at 63 life.

    Turn 10 Thopter is 24/24.  Opponent is at 39 life.

    Turn 11 Thopter is 28/28.  Opponent is at 11 life.

    Turn 12 Thopter is 32/32.  Opponent takes lethal damage, because they lacked any kind of removal for 12 turns.

    ****

    Now, compare this to, say, Solemn Recruit.

    Turn 1, cast Solemn Recruit.

    Turn 2, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 12.  Opponent is at 107

    Turn 3, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 18.  Opponent is at 89

    Turn 4, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 24.  Opponent is at 65

    Turn 5, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 30.  Opponent is at 35.

    Turn 6, reinforce Solemn Recruit.  Attack for 36.  Opponent is dead.

    With one card and no combo, you could kill your opponent in the same amount of time that it takes to ding your opponent for 8 using Thopter Spy Network.

    If you can't deal with TSN, "run more removal".  Demolish is a card.  So is Disperse.  Or a card like Authority of the Consuls or Thalia would shut it down completely.
    O_O
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    EDHdad said:


    If you can't deal with TSN, "run more removal".  Demolish is a card.  So is Disperse.  Or a card like Authority of the Consuls or Thalia would shut it down completely.

    Just for clarification on my position, acknowledging a card as one of the most powerful in a set is neither calling for a nerf nor stating that it can’t be dealt with.  Demolish is an answer to Hixus, but that doesn’t mean Hixus isn’t powerful. Eliminate the Competition is an answer to Gaea’s Revenge, but that doesn’t mean Gaea’s Revenge isn’t powerful.

    -- The strength of TSN is that it is a pressure card. It forces the opponent to use multiple sources of removal.

    Yes, Authority of the Consuls is a fine response. Thalia won’t be in the game, however, and there is going to be a distinct lack of removal in the environment when it’s just KLD and Origins. These are the removal cards that are missing: Descend, Engulf, Crush, Slaughter, Grip, Path, Smite, Humble, Moon, Scour, Struggle

    These are the strongest removal cards in each color post-Standard:

    Black: Eliminate the Competition, Unholy Hunger, Tidy Conclusion, Unlicensed Disintegration, Reave Soul, Fleshbag Marauder, Noxious Gearhulk.
    Blue: Turn to Frog, Displacement Wave
    White: Skywhaler’s Shot, Swift Reckoning, Fumigate
    Red: Exquisite Firecraft, Unlicensed Disintegration
    Green: Nothing but berserker creatures.

    Let me know if there's one I missed; that's a hasty list but I think it's pretty representative. What you'll notice is that even in black, removal is both weaker AND slower.  People won't be able to throw out 5-8 mana removal spells every turn--and the more mana a player has to invest in removing thopters, the less they have to generate actual threats.  It remains to be seen what Amonkhet will add to the environment, but it didn’t look very removal-heavy.
     
    -- No one is casting Solemn Recruits six turns in a row.  However, you’re right in that aggro IS a viable strategy against control; your example, in fact, showcases the very best possible matchup against TSN. So, let’s say you’re running Nahiri Zoo with Kari Zev, LR, Solemn Recruit. Yeah, you have a pretty good shot at overwhelming TSN before it gets set up.

    However, against non-aggro decks, and even if your Zoo starts off rough, once TSN hits the board, it is a race, because the TSN owner does not need to invest further mana into threat generation. They can focus on control, removal, and draw. Meanwhile, the zoo opponent has to choose between threats or removal, and if they cannot generate more than 4/4 of threat per turn, they will lose.

    How will you generate 4/4 worth of threat each turn? Once the rotation hits, there are currently 7 cards that have a casting cost of 7 or less and a power of 4 or more: Ghirapur Guide, Greenbelt Rampager, Herald of the Pantheon, Sram, Visionary Augmenter, Wind-Kin Raiders, and we’ll include Kari Zev to be fair.  Two more can do more than 4 damage—Pummeler and Solemn Recruit.  That is nine cards across four colors that can keep up with adding 4/4 power to the board—and blue does it for free after the initial investment into TSN

    -- Support destruction, as has been the case since the inception of the game, is suboptimal. TSN players do not run a single TSN that’ll get pinged by Demolish. Demolish is just as likely to hit a Shrine of the Forsaken Gods or a Prairie Stream or a Tamiyo’s Journal or a Servo. That means that while creatures require a single answer—a targeted Slaughter, for example—a powerful support often requires multiple spells just to kill it once.
     
    TSN is a powerful card. There's nothing wrong with that.


    ps: I forgot to mention you draw a card every combat round, which is also excellent--especially since card draw is also going to suffer in Standard




  • khurram
    khurram Posts: 1,090 Chairperson of the Boards
    @madwren well, shteev isn't just acknowledging TSN as powerful. He is calling for a nerf.
  • Phase
    Phase Posts: 157 Tile Toppler
    It will be interesting to see what sorts of disable cards come with Amonkhet. We won't really know how strong TSN will be in the new meta without seeing them! Looking forward to today or tomorrow when they show up here.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    khurram said:
    @madwren well, shteev isn't just acknowledging TSN as powerful. He is calling for a nerf.

    As I said, I was clarifying my own position.
  • jetnoctis
    jetnoctis Posts: 128 Tile Toppler
    edited May 2017
    madwren said:

    ...

    These are the strongest removal cards in each color post-Standard:

    Black: Eliminate the Competition, Unholy Hunger, Tidy Conclusion, Unlicensed Disintegration, Reave Soul, Fleshbag Marauder, Noxious Gearhulk.
    Blue: Turn to Frog, Displacement Wave
    White: Skywhaler’s Shot, Swift Reckoning, Fumigate
    Red: Exquisite Firecraft, Unlicensed Disintegration
    Green: Nothing but berserker creatures.

    Let me know if there's one I missed; that's a hasty list but I think it's pretty representative. 

    ...
    Green: The Great Aurora
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Green also relies more on reach than Berserk I think? 
  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    They released a cheaper +2/+2, reach spell in Kaladesh. They could have done the same with the +2/+2 berserk spell, IMO.
  • Sarahschmara
    Sarahschmara Posts: 554 Critical Contributor
    jetnoctis said:
    madwren said:

    ...

    These are the strongest removal cards in each color post-Standard:

    Black: Eliminate the Competition, Unholy Hunger, Tidy Conclusion, Unlicensed Disintegration, Reave Soul, Fleshbag Marauder, Noxious Gearhulk.
    Blue: Turn to Frog, Displacement Wave
    White: Skywhaler’s Shot, Swift Reckoning, Fumigate
    Red: Exquisite Firecraft, Unlicensed Disintegration
    Green: Nothing but berserker creatures.

    Let me know if there's one I missed; that's a hasty list but I think it's pretty representative. 

    ...
    Green: The Great Aurora
    Thank all of the gods for The Great Aurora!
  • jetnoctis
    jetnoctis Posts: 128 Tile Toppler
    Sarahschmara said:
    jetnoctis said:
    madwren said:

    ...

    These are the strongest removal cards in each color post-Standard:

    Black: Eliminate the Competition, Unholy Hunger, Tidy Conclusion, Unlicensed Disintegration, Reave Soul, Fleshbag Marauder, Noxious Gearhulk.
    Blue: Turn to Frog, Displacement Wave
    White: Skywhaler’s Shot, Swift Reckoning, Fumigate
    Red: Exquisite Firecraft, Unlicensed Disintegration
    Green: Nothing but berserker creatures.

    Let me know if there's one I missed; that's a hasty list but I think it's pretty representative. 

    ...
    Green: The Great Aurora
    Thank all of the gods for The Great Aurora!
    And Tragic Arrogance for white and Insidious Will (as indirect removal) for blue (thanks @Ejmoose)
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    I run TSN in my Tezz 2 deck simply so it can eat each and every kill spell that the AI is banking.  But before that I never used to use TSN simply because it is horrendously slow (call me impatient).  The OP combo is obviously along with Drowner of Hope, which I don't have.
  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    In the spirit of this thread:

    Please nerf Days Undoing!

  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    AngelForge said:
    In the spirit of this thread:

    Please nerf Days Undoing!

    They should have their eye on Days, definitely. When all the best card draw vanishes from Standard, it could well be the best of what's left. Currently it compares slightly unfavourably to Prism Array. I mean sure, every card in the game compares unfavourably to Prism Array, but Days is in direct competition with it for deck space.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think reinforcing creatures makes them op. 4/4 with vigilance should be the biggest and most powerful a creature should be able to become
  • AngelForge
    AngelForge Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    @shteev
    I meant it more like a joke, because I lost a game due to that card and I felt like this thread was generated because of such a experience (I may be wrong of course).

    Still, I agree that it is a way to powerful card for the mana cost. 
    "Bring to light" costs 10 mana as well and is total garbage as far as I can tell, but both a mythic cards...

    @Dologan
    I think you know that you are not really making sense with your exaggerated comment, to balance down all cards to equality. 

    But to bring some cards to reasonable power level, especially for PvP, can't be something bad I think, regardless if you own the card or not.
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2017
    Bring to light is interesting, you need to build your deck careful around it - average cost of the cards and Median should be above 10 mana to benefit in the long run from it.
    My record is bringing "bring to the light" to the light three times in a row, btw.. But I don't use it anymore, a mana converter instead offers more flexibility.

    If the card this topic is about would be nerfed, I'd change the life it takes. There is no need for an even number (5,10,15), 7 feels way more balanced. Changing the mana cost would change the concept of one of the few cards with an alternative concept.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    @AngelForge in case somehow you missed it, dologan was totally being sarcastic.. 
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2017
    I think there can be an objective basis for what constitutes a "reasonable power level" of a card.  As demonstrated, Thopter Spy Network, cast on curve will take 6 turns to damage the opponent and 12 turns to kill them.

    6 turns to damage and 12 turns to kill is "reasonable power level", IMO.  Pretty much any playable creature will kill faster.  Cast a Conclave Naturalists every other turn, and, unanswered, it will kill your opponent in 12 turns, plus it will take out up to a half dozen of the opponent's supports.  But nobody is calling for Conclave Naturalists to be Nerfed (I think).  Devil's Playground cast every turn will kill in 9.  Volcanic Rambler cast every 6 mana will also kill in 9.  Mirrorpool into (small spell) into Deploy the Gatewatch into Pig, Pig, Pig will take down Ajani in 4 turns.

    I haven't calculated Startled Awake into Rattlechains into Startled Awake into Rattlechains into Startled Awake into Rattlechains, but I'm sure it isn't slow.

    I have 7 Blue decks, and only run Thopter Spy Network in one of them.  And only because it combos with Drowner of Hope, and only because Kiora can search for Drowner and power it up with her 2nd ability.  Or with Dubious Challenge, but that doesn't always work out so well.

    Anyway, it's a combo piece.  You don't just automatically jam it into a deck the way you might jam Startled Awake or Pig.  With Decocotion Module, you could make a lot of Energy, but then you need some way to use the energy.  With Sram, you can make a big Sram.  But there are much more degenerate things you can be doing in a blue-white deck.  With Molten Nursery, you can kill your opponent faster, and there is synergy with Saheeli's 1st and second abilities.  But recently, events have been all about vehicles and energy, and blue (until recently) was all about Baral and cheap spells (where Metallurgic Summoning is better than Thopter Spy Network).

    It's fine if people want the card Nerfed, but have some objective data to back up it up besides "Thopters is scary".

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