Upcoming Character Change to Wolverine (Old Man Logan)

irwando

FIX REAL PROBLEMS

- Countdown tiles doing Damage
- All of the issues with Court Death
- BUGS BUGS BUGS

Spudgutter

VForVictory wrote:

I'd tread very carefully retooling oml. A lot of lack of diversity in use of 5*s is due to lack of options. I have two champed 5*s and since my mmr says all I see are champed 5*s in pvp I have little choice but to use the two I have. If it becomes painful to win with those two then I'm not going to keep playing. Many other people are in this exact situation.

Exactly. Don't punish me for leveling my other 5*, and I will level and use them. I have heard this horror story over and over. Since OML has been around the longest, and because you only get a 5* covers every 90(!) days in daily resupply, I have him well covered and leveled.

He is a victim of their poor design. Not poor character design, but game play design.

killerkoala

So this is another health pack buying ploy? i want the true healing post unlocked again.

vudu3

OML’s ubiquity has much to do with the fact that he was the second 5* character to be released. Many people had amble time to collect his covers before the influx of 5* characters completely diluted the pool on classic LT. It was significantly easier to champ a classic 5* a year ago compared to today. When there was a 5.0% chance to pull a classic 5* you needed to open an average of 260 tokens to pull 13 covers for any one characters. With the current classic 5* odds you need to open an average of 953 tokens.

OML is a wonderful first 5* to have because of his sustainability but he’s not the strongest 5* or even in the upper half if you have multiple 5* characters. Nerfing OML isn’t going to fix the perceived problem. Anyone with only one or two champed 5* will be forced to continue to use OML in PVP because their MMR won’t let them use any other characters. (If they do then they’ll be mauled by other 5* players very quickly.) And anyone with all or most of the 5* characters champed has likely moved on from OML so this change won’t affect them either.

It seems like the problem is that OML is too powerful when partially covered and at low levels. If this is the case then just change how quickly his abilities ramp up with each cover but leave his max levels untouched.

Vhailorx

As i have said all along, merely looking at OML's raw usage is not a sufficent measure of his strength. He will definitely see a usage boost because he is a true healer that can grind endlessly. And an older 5* for whom most people have at least a few covers.

How often is OML used among the universe of players with 3 or more 5* champions? How often is OML used by 4* players on the hardest pve nodes when boosted 4* champs are available?

These are the questions that will reveal if OML really is crowding out other options in the 4* and 5* playspace. Looking at the aggregate data just shows was we already know: oml is the king of grinding. That's an inevitable result of design problems with the game. If you artificially limit play time with health, and then introduce one character that regenerates, everyone will rely on that character to avoid the artificial play time barrier.

And it's especially cruel to implement a change 18 months after the character was released. If it was a problem, then you should have nerfed him right after release, not now when it will undermine the substantial time/money investment people have made in him.

Where OML does stand out from other 5*s, however, is his utility at low cover levels. Either all 5*s should uave some value at 1/1/1, or oml should be nerfed at low cover levels only.

OneLastGambit

Vhailorx wrote:

As i have said all along, merely looking at OML's raw usage is not a sufficent measure of his strength. He will definitely see a usage boost because he is a true healer that can grind endlessly. And an older 5* for whom most people have at least a few covers.

How often is OML used among the universe of players with 3 or more 5* champions? How often is OML used by 4* players on the hardest pve nodes when boosted 4* champs are available?

Thise are the questions that will reveal if OML really is crowding out other options in the 4* and 5* playspace. Looking at the aggregate dat just shows was we akready know: oml is the king of grinding. That's an inevitavpe result of design problems with the game. If you artificially limit play time with health, and then introduce one character that regenerates, then everyone will rely on that character to avoid the artificial pmay time barrier.

And it's especually cruel to implement a change 18 months after the character was released. If it was a problem, then you should have nerfed him right after release, not now when it will undermine the substantial time/money investment people have made in him.

Where OML doed stand out from other 5*s, however, is his utility at low cover levels. Either all 5*s should uave some value at 1/1/1, or oml should be nerfed at low cover levels only.

They nerfed him even before he was released if memory serves....

Punisher5784

I find it amusing that I pulled two OML covers lastnight then I see this post

I don't have a yellow but I can def understand why players will be angry. Players use him to save healthpacks. We need HP for slots so we can roster everyone, including ALL the fast releasing new characters. You can counter the OML nerf by raising the healthpack refresh from 10 to 15. Or better yet, fix the scaling! We wouldn't consistently use the same characters if the enemies weren't over 100 levels higher than us.

I'm curious how this will be handled because every single Wolverine nerf has resulted in alot of angry players! Quite annoying when every single Wolverine had been nerfed.

Daredevil217

Vaulting...

Vintage Heroics...

Nerf Bats...

God I love this company!! One bad decision after another. This does not affect me much at all really. But to those struggling in the 4-5 transition, let me say I'm truly sorry.

The ONLY reason OML is so heavily used is true heal. That's it. He is NOT that powerful at all. I am a 3-4* transitioner and regularly stomp him out. I'd be interested to see his LOSS rate on defense.

I feel bad for my contribution to the nerf. Even though I'm not really afffected. I just hate nerfs in general, especially if misinformed or motivated by greed.

I'm a 3-4* player and OML is the only 5 I use. When do I use him? With 3* Thanos and another healer for Court Death against low level seed teams. That's it! I know MANY do this because Thanos/OML is all I see after seeds. I'm pretty sure this niche use pushes those numbers WAY up. Assuming they need his heal, I'll just replace him with a random assortment of fives to keep the high match damage and switch them out as I take feedback from Court Death. No biggie. I guess you'll get your "roster diversity" for my 3 second matches, while heath pack sales increase.

Man it would be really awesome to see how much the developers stand to make with all these "quality of life changes". I personally was free to play before, free to play now, and likely forever after all this. But for others I wonder how the numbers have shifted and is it significant compared to the bad will they are creating in the community.

mags1587

I have many, many questions about the 10% win rate. Like someone mentioned earlier, you can make statistics say anything you want, so I'd like some elaboration on this. You're doing this based on statistics, fine, but you need to explain it to us more than just "10% win rate". Give us some context.

Was roster composition considered? What percentage of those wins came from players with more than one or two 5*s at comparable levels?

What are the breakdown of levels of opponents in that 10% win rate? I take OML to every DDQ match and most easy PvE nodes because of 5* match damage. Why OML instead of my similarly leveled Phx? Not because of the heal -- that's not a factor for those easy nodes -- it's just because I leveled him first and I got used to using him. I'm a creature of habit. That could explain away a big chunk of that 10%.

What are the rates of use of OML vs. other 5*s? What's the percentage of players who have OML fully covered vs those other 5*s that are used less? Keep in mind that ISO is a factor too. It takes a lot of ISO to level a 5*. Having one 5* leveled is usually enough to scare off the lower level players in PvP (because too many players see a 5* and balk, even if they're easier to beat than a boosted 4*) and it's also enough to take advantage of 5* match damage. OML was the second 5* and much more usable at the time than SS, of course people would invest in him.

If you want us to understand and accept this nerf you're going to need to provide more details. Otherwise everyone's going to speculate on the true motives behind the nerf and assume this is just a cash grab of some sort as people so often do.

CrookedKnight

Yep, originally Reluctant Hero was going to deal direct damage after each use of an ally power, but they realized soon before the debut how broken that would have been.

Vhailorx

OneLastGambit wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

As i have said all along, merely looking at OML's raw usage is not a sufficent measure of his strength. He will definitely see a usage boost because he is a true healer that can grind endlessly. And an older 5* for whom most people have at least a few covers.

How often is OML used among the universe of players with 3 or more 5* champions? How often is OML used by 4* players on the hardest pve nodes when boosted 4* champs are available?

Thise are the questions that will reveal if OML really is crowding out other options in the 4* and 5* playspace. Looking at the aggregate dat just shows was we akready know: oml is the king of grinding. That's an inevitavpe result of design problems with the game. If you artificially limit play time with health, and then introduce one character that regenerates, then everyone will rely on that character to avoid the artificial pmay time barrier.

And it's especually cruel to implement a change 18 months after the character was released. If it was a problem, then you should have nerfed him right after release, not now when it will undermine the substantial time/money investment people have made in him.

Where OML doed stand out from other 5*s, however, is his utility at low cover levels. Either all 5*s should uave some value at 1/1/1, or oml should be nerfed at low cover levels only.

They nerfed him even before he was released if memory serves....

Yesh, i think his red passive made stronger strikes or did some direct damage or something.

And if that wasnt enough then they should have nerfed him again 16 months ago. No one complains about the IF nerf because it happened right away and didn't wreck the character. Very few people felt cheated by a change after investing heavily in 3* IF in march 2015. But people hated tue thorverine nerfs because they reallu hurt the characters and happened several months too late.

bigsmooth

One thing to note is that the specific phrase "low covers" is used twice in the announcement. I'm obviously speculating here, but it's possible that the adjustments will not have a significant effect on those folks that have him well covered/champed.

firethorne

So, one of the most popular Marvel characters of all time was heavily used? Well how about that. I mean, way to miss the mark on synergy. You realize the movie "Logan" just came out, right? So, hot on its heels, you decide to make Logan worse. I am seriously, truly, 100% fascinated by what the decision making process at D3/Demi is.

Old Man Logan has a lot of factors at play, but none of them add up to him being overpowered.

1. The popularity of Wolverine. As I said, we just had a movie featuring a character. And he is, arguably, the most iconic Marvel character ever produced. Easily top ten.

2. He was one of the first 5* characters released. So, people got him further along before dilution began to ravage the ability to complete a 5* character. Want more 5* diversity, how about making it so getting them isn't entirely based on RNG and takes two years?

3. He has utility as soon as he has one yellow cover. He is one of very few characters that you can begin using with only a few covers, instead of needing the full load-out. And, the thing that really gets me here is THIS WAS YOUR ORIGINAL STATED INTENT! Remember?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32577

"David wrote:

Moore"]
Q: How strong will 5-Star characters be?

A: 5-Star characters will be usable as soon as you earn them. Where 3 and 4-Stars need 8 to 10 covers before they match the power of a maxed 2-Star or 3-Star, 5-Star characters need only a few covers to match the power of a maxed 4-Star.

OML represents one of a very few cases that actually live up to your intention. He actually followed the design doc you presented to your players, where so many other 5*'s fail. And now, you seek to undo that?

But once you get him and someone like Hawkeye fully covered, he isn't that impressive. I saw a video of a 9 cover Hawkeye with two 4*'s take out a maxchamp OML/Pheonix/IM45. Have a look: https://youtu.be/H7X5J3JA1OA Seriously, answer. Which side of this match is overpowered?

OML isn't overpowered. He simply helps save a few health packs burning through the seed teams and trivial PvE. If you don't understand that, you don't understand your own game. Or maybe you do, and your true motivation is greed, and this is all about trying to drain health packs to spark micro transactions. Either way, this is a mistake, and coming on the heels of vaulting, an extremely risky one for player retention.

kyo28

Fantastic track record so far, D3:
- Vaulting of older 4*s
- Vintage Heroic token vault
- and now this

time to switch on my PS4 and leave this mess until you guys actually figure it out.

mikelnoe

Figures I champed oml less than a week ago and this happens. This is nothing more than a money grab to ensure more health pack purchases.

Lol inflammatory language? Lube Lube Lube lube

Tilesmasher

I'm on day 1012 and just got my 13th OML cover in the last few weeks.

I've spent easily over a thousand dollars trying to get those 13 covers.. If this goes through either we get a full refund of 9,360 CP or I'm selling my entire roster for iso and walking away.

I'm sick of getting screwed over and dealing with the ridiculous short sighted greedy decisions.

I hope this is a huge nerf with nothing to compensate for it so I can have an excuse to move on.

westnyy2

You missed it again guys. The changes to Surfer and Cap didn't have the desired effect in seeing more usage because they are trapped in classics. Until their covers are easier to obtain, this will always be the result. I personally like both reworked characters but my Cap is a level 450 while my OML is 463. Which would you use?

The real change that needs to happen is to rework the health pack system. Leave it at 10 health packs, but only require us to use one if we lose a player in a match. Let the survivors start with full health the next match. You would definitely see an increase in different combos used. This change alone is a nerf to true healing, but true healing still would have a place if you intended on using weaker characters and just need a tank. I'm sure this would lead to less people buying health packs, but I don't buy them now and won't going forward.

There are bigger problems in the game than OML. Please focus on those and not on this ****. Perhaps it's finally time to leave feedback on the app in the iOS store. I anxiously await tomorrow's announcement and new bugs that will surely come from implementation.

fmftint

If buffs to SS & Cap did not significantly change useage statistics then you need to look at the contributing factors
1. The buffs were not extensive enough
2. RNG makes cover acquisition a joke
3. Dupe covers still unusable
4. Exorbitant cost to level an alternative


You think charge backs were bad when XFW was nerfed? What to you think will happen now? I know several who've already initiated contact with Apple, Google and their credit cards

zodiac339

And here I was coming to post about how all the bugs were a clue that Spider Man (3) was getting a rebalance, thus getting rid of the bugs. Like a spider can.

Thank goodness I don't PVP with Logan. Hope this doesn't hurt his value on the trivial nodes in PVE with the Thanos nuke.

fun_and_gun

need to bring back hp suck, oml edition